What's the future of raids in GW2?

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

Let me put it that way. Almost every raider was at some time a dungeon runner (with the possible exception of new players). On the other hand, many dungeon runners are not raiding (some, because they're no longer playing. Others, because they simply were too casual or their skill levels are lacking as far as raids are considered).

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Once Raids get relegated from the Big New Stuff to the everyday's thing (which is already happening), Anet's interest in promoting this content will go down.

Again, I really doubt this. We'll see what happens with the next wing, if they stay true to what they said about it, or if it's a massive disappointment. It won't take long, the next Raid release should be really close.

We shall see.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Let me put it that way. Almost every raider was at some time a dungeon runner (with the possible exception of new players). On the other hand, many dungeon runners are not raiding (some, because they're no longer playing. Others, because they simply were too casual or their skill levels are lacking as far as raids are considered).

This isn't true. There are many players who started playing the game with Heart of Thorns, or much later in the game's history when Dungeons were already abandoned content. If they are the majority or not is something nobody knows. The "possible exception of new players" is a very large number of Raiders

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

Compare that to now:

• multiple lucrativ farms which compete with each other
• fractal dailies which are very lucrativ
• multiple living world maps
• and even now dungeons if speedrun are very very lucrativ (yet people do not return because there is enough solo content which yields the same or more gold)

Dungeons being popular had little to do with how good they were, it was mostly a thing about efficiency in gold farming.

Were dungeons more popular than raids? Who knows. I'm sure more people played dungeons than raids, but the longevity or rewards structure keeps people longer interested in raids than dungeons (that is until people have their first legendary armor for many).

[nsleep.7839]

Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

• Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
• Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
• Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
• Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

[Zenith.7301]

@nsleep.7839 said:Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

• Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
• Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
• Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
• Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

You can't have tight DPS checks given the horrendous build variety and balancing in PvE. I don't want an atmosphere where people start strictly enforcing the bringing in of firebrand/renegade/weaver/holosmith/dragonhunter or bust.

They have to actually work on PvE balance before the content starts being more demanding, but I doubt that will happen given their usual focus is on spvp changes and only a handful of PvE ones.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

[Yasi.9065]

@nsleep.7839 said:Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

• Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
• Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
• Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
• Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

Huh? Im missing something. I get around 70-100g per week on my fullclear, usually done in 2-2.5 hours. Thats pretty rewarding I think, not even counting the MS or ascended stuff in that.

Raids are actually pretty nicely done on a difficulty scale. Pugs can finish them, pros can finish them faster. The only gripe I have with it, is that Id like to have the challenge motes be a weekly thing in which you can get an extra LI and maybe some food boxes or other loot. Doesnt even have to be premium loot, just... a tiny bit more than normal boss drops. Maybe a new currency that you can exchange for pretty things?

Raids are actually not THAT bugged. Not in the least to be compared with the state Dungeons are in. Pathfinding is a huge problem on some bosses, but hey... you can work around it and imo its not critical. Dungeons on the other hand you get quite a lot of stalling bugs, which are way more serious than VG not wanting to cross seeker spawn points or MO going sightseeing. Tried Arah last week, and ofc we got stuck with NPC not reacting anymore because we killed mobs too fast. THATS bugged. Raids are okay all in all. Not more bugged than fractals. Well compared to 100CM even less bugged ^^ but lets not include those to keep Ben happy ;)

The release schedule really is a problem. A year between each raid is way too long. A way to counter this problem is to bring in more challenge motes on a weekly reset timer. So if some guilds want to spend 20 hours a week on raids, they can do that by repeating challenge motes.Make it that a fullclear is mandatory for the repeatable challenge motes loot, and let us spawn the bosses on the cleared wings via said motes.And suddenly a year between raid releases isnt that long anymore.

That being said, I love raids. Its pretty much the only thing that keeps me in this game. And Im okay with others not liking raids, afterall anet offers very diverse content, which is absolutely great.But I have to say, reading through this thread (and others regarding new raid meta), the amount of hate and malice non-raid players show towards the so called "elitists" is staggering. If you dont like a certain part of the game, just dont play it. I dont like openworld, I think its boring. Still, Im not going around and belittle or hate on every little openworld content that gets added to the game. I dont go around posting stuff like "I hope living story will be discontinued and it goes down the drain like dungeons", just because I find living story tedious.

[STIHL.2489]

@Yasi.9065 said:But I have to say, reading through this thread (and others regarding new raid meta), the amount of hate and malice non-raid players show towards the so called "elitists" is staggering. If you dont like a certain part of the game, just dont play it. I dont like openworld, I think its boring. Still, Im not going around and belittle or hate on every little openworld content that gets added to the game.

It's noble of you that you don't, sadly, you are the rare breed with respect to other peoples game mode even if you think it is 'too easy', which explains the backlash you see on this topic.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned2.) you like repeating forum nonsense3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens.

True, but that level of rewards happened only after a massive backlash after the original reward nerf. Before that, they were way worse.

Most probably, if Anet had named it a "reward rework" and moved straight from the pre-nerf to the current levels, dungeons would have been still popular. Unfortunately, they didn't. They first nerfed the rewards into the ground, and moreover they publicly announced that their intent was to make people stop doing dungeons. So, people stopped doing them, and didn't return even after the reward nerf was dialed back.

There's no content in the game that can survive long after it has been so visibly and clearly abandoned by developers. I'm pretty sure that if Anet said today that no further work will be done on raids, and that Anet doesn't want people to do them, then even without touching rewards at all it wouldn't take long for the raiders to disperse, leaving only the small core of most stubborn players. And unlike dungeons, raids do have exclusive rewards you can't get anywhere else.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Yasi.9065 said:The only gripe I have with it, is that Id like to have the challenge motes be a weekly thing in which you can get an extra LI and maybe some food boxes or other loot. Doesnt even have to be premium loot, just... a tiny bit more than normal boss drops. Maybe a new currency that you can exchange for pretty things?

Honestly, although Raid motes need to give something when you repeat them, this is a policy of the entire game. For example, you can't get any extra rewards if you destroy the portals of Shadow Behemoth within the time limit, or if you break the bar of Shatterer and not let him fly, Living World story achievements and so on.This entire policy of extra challenges only giving achievements only once, needs to change and make those extra achievements give a little extra every time, so players actually try to complete them. Of course such a huge policy change isn't so easy

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens.

True, but that level of rewards happened only after a massive backlash after the original reward nerf. Before that, they were way worse.

Most probably, if Anet had named it a "reward rework" and moved straight from the pre-nerf to the current levels, dungeons would have been still popular. Unfortunately, they didn't. They first nerfed the rewards into the ground, and moreover they publicly announced that their intent was to make people stop doing dungeons. So, people stopped doing them, and didn't return even after the reward nerf was dialed back.

Oh I agree and I never said dungeons didn't suffer from the initial reward decrease. As far as current rewards though, they are quite competative with pre nerf rewards.

The main difference being that other parts of the game just yield more or easier rewards nowadays. That was the point I was trying to make. Reward wise, dungeons are fine and actually quite fun if you do them occasionally (before massive boredom kicks in). Then again, with all the powercreep it's more like speedrunning them for old time sake, not really due to story or anything else besides getting that sweet sweet loot faster.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

There's no content in the game that can survive long after it has been so visibly and clearly abandoned by developers. I'm pretty sure that if Anet said today that no further work will be done on raids, and that Anet doesn't want people to do them, then even without touching rewards at all it wouldn't take long for the raiders to disperse, leaving only the small core of most stubborn players. And unlike dungeons, raids do have exclusive rewards you can't get anywhere else.

Agreed, the raiding community is already suffering withdrawl symptoms from lack of a new raid wing.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned2.) you like repeating forum nonsense3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

[Edu.6984]

My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

[Vinceman.4572]

@STIHL.2489 said:

Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

It's obvious that you have no clue about how rewarding dungeons are at this point in the game.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned2.) you like repeating forum nonsense3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

As I said, you are clueless.

Not my problem though.

[STIHL.2489]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

It's obvious that you have no clue about how rewarding dungeons are at this point in the game.

No, I am astutely aware of how bad they are for average players, but I don't expect you to understand that.

[Yasi.9065]

Hm, I cant agree on either statement.Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

But with a good group and cherry picking only the most rewarding dungeon paths once a day, rewards are really quite nice. And its fun.

@xDudisx.5914 said:My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

At this point, 5 years after release, every "free" content is in the same boat. Be it sPvP, fractals/raids, openworld metas/events, etc. Where there is no money to be made, theres only maintenance being done, with a "goody" thrown in there once or twice a year.I wouldnt be surprised if Anet isnt really already drafting up ideas for guild wars 3.

[STIHL.2489]

@xDudisx.5914 said:My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

I am akin to agree with this, as like Legendary Journeys, E-Sports, Dungeons and many other things they just "try out" because there was a "Cry Out" and they are abandoned in the pursuit of some new shiny to add to the game. Devs were talking about Legendary Journeys after the announcement they were being put on hold, and the last one they were working on finally got rolled out a bit later, so, Dev posts are not reliable for anythings future, as they don't get to make the call about what happens, in some cases they may not even know what the plan is. But, it' a dark omen for Raids that they were not mentioned at all.. in any of the PoF expansion trailers or advertisements.

[STIHL.2489]

@Yasi.9065 said:Hm, I cant agree on either statement.Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Yasi.9065 said:At this point, 5 years after release, every "free" content is in the same boat. Be it sPvP, fractals/raids, openworld metas/events, etc. Where there is no money to be made, theres only maintenance being done, with a "goody" thrown in there once or twice a year.

Unlike sPVP, WvW and Fractals, Raids require an expansion to be played. So before Raids ever stop being released, sPVP, WvW and Fractals will stop being supported first.They can make lots of expansion sales with Raids, as the Raiders will buy them to play their chosen content, while players of the other types do not have to pay anything, they can even play their "mode" as free players.

[STIHL.2489]

@Yasi.9065 said:I wouldnt be surprised if Anet isnt really already drafting up ideas for guild wars 3.

I might buy a GW3.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:Hm, I cant agree on either statement.Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:Hm, I cant agree on either statement.Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty obvious that you have never LFG a dungeon as of late.