Comparison of hammer v sword v dagger range (with data)

[scerevisiae.1972]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18YPpHisLo2kstuM--8BtTozGat-kYp7PZO_XEPex9ss/edit?usp=sharing

I defined ranged as anything with 400+ range.

 

Summary:

• hammer is ~60% melee / 40% ranged  (6 / 20 true ranged skills, 2 mobility skills, 12 melee skills)
• sword is ~90 melee / 10% ranged
• dagger is ~70% melee, 30% ranged 

 

So if you were feeling like hammer had no real niche or identity, well, according to the numbers, you'd be right. Hammer and dagger share nearly the same profile of melee/ranged attacks.

 

Clearly, hammer needs more range (or more ranged skills) if it is to have any unique identity over the space that sword/dagger already fill.

Also:

• hammer has 0 evades (though there is a single attack block)
• sword/dagger has 3 evades
• dagger/dagger has 3 evades

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I like the global idea they wanted to share, but they failed to execute; they have just forgotten D/D  already exists and elementalist doesn't have weapon swap.
I don't know if range everywhere is the only solution.  There is a lot of issues with hammer, and it needs numerous fixes.

Like the lack of mobility, access to swiftness/superspeed, leaps; or cripple/chill/immob only at melee, or the 1-hit block skill (nice idea, trash in practice) or the lack of combo finisher for a spec focused on ... combo field, the hitbox and damage issue of skills #3 ...

Earth should have ranged option, on AA or on #2 to inflict cripple at 600-900 range. It'd greatly help to ... go on melee.
A nice tweak IMO would be to lower the distances on air #4 and increase air#5 to 900, so it'll be easier to chain those skills.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Infusion.7149]

"hammer is the new melee bruiser weapon" - CMC in elite spec video

The fact that it received any more range than dagger is already a bonus. IMO they missed the design intention, there should be more of an emphasis on damage reduction with the hammer 3 buffs and less on pitiful damage against smaller hitboxes. Even if you slap some range on hammer as you suggest you're still limited by hammer 3 hitbox (in the power benchmark just the hammer 3 loop skills do ~40% damage and that is rather ridiculous : small hitbox is supposedly 30K).

The huge contrast with daggers is that you can do decent damage in melee on water attunement. If earth attunement had bleeding on auto it would be better, right now it is underwhelming.

As a baseline for how difficult something is I believe use of two attunements should be the baseline (water+air for power on hammer or fire+air on other weapons, fire+earth for condi) as that is what you have on other classes with a weapon swap. If you use all 4 attunements it needs to outperform other specs.

For competitive the hammer block is rather weak because it's a single block rather than a channel block and there really aren't any defensive evades on it.

[Jski.6180]

I would not call 300 range on dagger as "ranged" even the 600 skill because it travails along the ground only its not a good enofe skill to call ranged. I am all for making earth 1 on dagger 600 to 900 seeing how its a single target skill as well as making water skill travail in the air not along the ground (just simply turning the skill 180 so its a disk throw). I think hammer air 1 seems to some what work this way too it needs to be fired on a different way.

[Puck.3697]

It has no unique identity because it's a terribly made weapon it's that simple. It don't matter if you put ranged on it or not. The physical design is just off the mark. 

The problem isn't the fact it "lacks ranged" the problem is it does litterally nothing. 

There's too many glaring holes in the weapon for it to function in any role. It's not standing on daggers fit. Daggers has put it in a early grave cemented the floor below it fetched itself a bed and slept ontop of it. 

Fundamentally the design needs to change. 

It has no sustain, no utility, no aura access no evades  and it's piled into a proffession that has relied on its active defence as it's passive defences are lower then any other proffession. And to go ontop it lacks any real damage too

And the mechanic is a missed opportunity 

imho when I heard them talking combining elements etc etc with the whole hammer3 and more 

I was hoping ele would get access to a F5 which would be like a fifth attunement. Which is powered by using different attunement magic to create dual attunement magic. 

frostfire, electrified waves, fiery tornados and thiand, the current F5 mechanic could litterally be a utility skill by today's standards of boon application. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:15 PM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I like the global idea they wanted to share, but they failed to execute; they have just forgotten D/D  already exists and elementalist doesn't have weapon swap.
I don't know if range everywhere is the only solution.  There is a lot of issues with hammer, and it needs numerous fixes.

Like the lack of mobility, access to swiftness/superspeed, leaps; or cripple/chill/immob only at melee, or the 1-hit block skill (nice idea, trash in practice) or the lack of combo finisher for a spec focused on ... combo field, the hitbox and damage issue of skills #3 ...

Earth should have ranged option, on AA or on #2 to inflict cripple at 600-900 range. It'd greatly help to ... go on melee.
A nice tweak IMO would be to lower the distances on air #4 and increase air#5 to 900, so it'll be easier to chain those skills.

yeah I think hammer needs big improvements,  it doesn't have a niche. Range needs to be extended or mobility needs to be increased a lot. It was so bad in WVW.

I also think there should be at least 1 ranged skill in every element at a minimum. 

It would be nice if there were a couple of skills with 900+ range, eg: air #2, fire #4 and the #3 finale skills.

Personally I thought the #3 skills were gimmicky and weren't worth the time to cast either due to weak effects and would prefer they were totally replaced but I can't see that happening.

Edited October 4, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Obtena.7952]

Actaully, I'm thinking that if Anet reworked hammer, you have to believe there would be more compromise on it. It's really unlikely they extend the range and improve it's function (whether that's damage, sustain or CC) and to be fair, I think that's why it's quite underwhelming the way it is ... they already reached a compromise point where it does everything they want it to do without making it exceptional at anything. That already makes it do too much and it won't be really good for anything other allowing some guaranteed finishers, which the spec needs in order to work. 

Obviously if we need finishers, then the decision is likely down to leaning to more range or more function, but not both. 

[scerevisiae.1972]

updated with evade comparison

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Water weapon skills can't heal allies neither
In fact, zero skill affects allies. Not the water skills, not even fire#5, no group swiftness, no fire/water field. (And we don't even talk about augment's skills 😘 )

I know the devil's advocate would suggest the Jade sphere aoe, but I would also suggest any weapon but hammer. Why bother ?
They could totally rework the projectiles skills to be an AoE spam (already to fix the damage and hitbox ) and grant the bonus to allies in range for example.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:37 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Water weapon skills can't heal allies neither
In fact, zero skill affects allies. Not the water skills, not even fire#5, no group swiftness, no fire/water field. (And we don't even talk about augment's skills 😘 )

I know the devil's advocate would suggest the Jade sphere aoe, but I would also suggest any weapon but hammer. Why bother ?
They could totally rework the projectiles skills to be an AoE spam (already to fix the damage and hitbox ) and grant the bonus to allies in range for example.

water jade sphere doesn't heal allies either. 

[Zephyrus.9680]

I don't think it's accurate to count melee gap-closers as ranged. Ranged requires at least semi-spammable ranged damage skills and I would say 600+ is the bare minimum to call it ranged but really 900+. 400 is essentially melee. Technically dagger's water 1 is this except it barely does damage. So effectively, sword and dagger are almost entirely melee weapons (dagger is not 30% ranged in actual effect).

Hammer as-is has the potential of having a unique identity as a hybrid ranged/melee weapon with proper ranged DPS skills.  But considering the current skills, it's the melee side of hammer that has no reason to exist. It's not viable at all. No tanky features, barely any CC, barely any mobility with the leap skill also being the only sustain (suicide wish). Also skills so slow you could take a nap after some of them. It's melee skill design has no redeeming features in exchange for all those downsides. 

 

In general super slow melee skills are bad design because they will have very little effective use, particularly in pvp contexts. And unless there are some serious built-in tank or evade mechanics, we should also expect a melee weapon to have high mobility. Specifically in WvW. It will have no viability without mobility. 

 

More generally, no mobility and no tank mechanics on the class with the lowest base HP and armor in the game and you get a weapon that isn't viable period. That is hammer now. The melee side needs to be reworked and the ranged side is lackluster at best. The orb mechanic is also pointless.

[Coldtart.4785]

Another fun hammer fact: its fire auto is one of only two fire weapon skills that cannot damage multiple targets in any way. The other one is heat sync.

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Another fun hammer fact: its fire auto is one of only two fire weapon skills that cannot damage multiple targets in any way. The other one is heat sync.

Maybe that is unintentional.
Tooltip is "Singe your foes by unleashing a burst of flame from your hammer."

That is foes , plural.
https://api.guildwars2.com/v2/skills?ids=62925&lang=en

Edited October 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, Zephyrus.9680 said:

I don't think it's accurate to count melee gap-closers as ranged. 

It's a fair point of discussion but at the end of the day, you can execute the skill at range, so IMO it's still a ranged attack, just *you're* the projectile instead of a spell projectile.

Hard disagree that 600+ is min for ranged though, I think catalyst being a mid-ranged caster is fine, just... that it's not, according to the data.

It's my sincere hope they add more range to hammer, cause even at 600 range, with 1 gap closer, a 1single attack block and no swiftness/superspeed, it's going to be total garbage in wvw.

 

[Infusion.7149]

If your "ranged skill" puts you into melee range it means you can't use as a ranged skill , it's just a gapcloser. It's that simple. No need to overcomplicate things.

For example if you have a PVE mechanic you shouldn't be stepping in or in a WVW chokepoint you wouldn't call a gapcloser a ranged skill.

[Dadnir.5038]

The issue is that the devs try to enforce cycling throught all the attunment on catalyst via the hammer.

It's like hammer#3 try to be the catalyst's mechanism providing both offense and defense when used optimally, yet isn't because it's tied to the hammer.

It's to the point that I'm wondering why they didn't put hammer#3 on attunment's switch instead of bothering themself with adding a F5. The traits could have made the catalyst deal increasingly more damage/defense/support as they have more of the things that turn around him. That would have probably been more engaging than the whole: "try to get auras for increased stats/damage/defense + try your best to use your augment in the sphere" setup.

That said, it's yet again, the issue with a lot of EoD e-spec, they feel like they are not polished at all, that they tried to pack too many interesting things into them, thus failing to give a proper focus on these things that would have made them "great".

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

It's a fair point of discussion but at the end of the day, you can execute the skill at range, so IMO it's still a ranged attack, just *you're* the projectile instead of a spell projectile.

Hard disagree that 600+ is min for ranged though, I think catalyst being a mid-ranged caster is fine, just... that it's not, according to the data.

It's my sincere hope they add more range to hammer, cause even at 600 range, with 1 gap closer, a 1single attack block and no swiftness/superspeed, it's going to be total garbage in wvw.

 

Like Infusion said, if a skill is a gap-closer, it's not a ranged attack, since the whole purpose of the skill is to put you into melee (or at least closer to it). Ranged playstyles should generally facilitate opening that gap rather than closing it. If anything, I'd say that 'blow yourself away from the enemy' skill on air hammer is more of a ranged weapon skill, since the goal is to get OUT of melee.

 

600+ range is more of a pragmatic thing. It's the distance you need to be able to effectively use terrain to make it harder for melee to get to you, to put you out of range of at least some gap-closers, and to keep you out of stray AoE and cleave from the melee dogpile. Plenty of weapons coded as 'melee' have a number of attacks with more than 400 range (rev mace, for example) - you really need at least 600 or you're taking on nearly as much risk as the melee builds anyway.

 

And there's an argument that it really needs to be around the 900. There were a few 600 range ranged weapons on release, such as necromancer and ranger axe. They all were extended to at least 900, since experience showed that 600 just wasn't enough, even if they have some skills that reward getting closer. Personally, when I hear 'midrange', I think around 900 for this reason. 600 or less is the domain of flamethrower-type weapons and ranged skills on what are otherwise melee weapons.

[scerevisiae.1972]

feel free to make your own spreadsheet where you define your own breakpoints as to what constitues "ranged". I prefer my definition - if a skill can apply its dmg/effect outside of melee range, it's a prima facie ranged attack. 

[scerevisiae.1972]

bumping in the hope that hammer can be made into a real 600-range weapon before Feb.

 

6 out of 20 skills being ranged means hammer is YAMW: yet another melee weapon

[scerevisiae.1972]

bumping in the hope CMC can fix the abomination.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Geez whats up with all the necroposting in the ele forum lately... 

The Espec has been released, its designed to be a meleebrawler build that is able to do quick bursts of ranged dps, to decrease dps downtime with certain boss mechanics and increase versatility in PvP. 

Nothing is gonna change this design. It would require a complete redesign of the current Espec and would probably anger alot of players that are accustomed to its current playstyle. 

I understand people want their ranged spellcaster fantasy, so do i actually. But just take the L for catalyst and set your new hopes to the next Espec.

[scerevisiae.1972]

23 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

 It would require a complete redesign of the current Espec and would probably anger alot of players that are accustomed to its current playstyle. 

No, it wouldn't.

The core problem with hammer is that it's only really playable in 2 narrow areas of the game - PVE and PVP capture points.

There's also the highly questionable design choice of 2 ranged attunements and 2 melee attunements.

Just a few tweaks to a few existing skills to give the weapon more range and/or more AOE would make a _huge_ difference. 

Hammer also really _needs_ to be a general-purpose weapon because Catalyst the e-spec is really so bland by itself and doesn't change up the playstyle of dagger/sceptre/staff. It's just a field (with a super clunky resource behind it).

It's really a huge design fail IMO., but, much of it is fixable. Certainly no "complete redesign" needed.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

18 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Just a few tweaks

Lol

 

Ranged skills: fire 1,2,4, air 1,2,5 

Melee skills: fire 3,5 water 1,2,3,4,5 air 3, earth 1,2,3,5, all jade spheres. 

Neutral: air 4 and earth 4

(And probably air 5 would even be better categorized as melee since its a blast finisher)

 

Even though fire and air have some ranged skills, it still needs to be close to the target to max dps due to fire 3&5 and air 3. Besides that the catalyst is designed to cycle through all 4 elements in Rapid speed, meaning even if air and fire would be fully ranged, you still have to remain close combat because of water and earth. 

The hammer is not designed to be a ranged weapon and will require an overhaul of 70% of their skillset. 

With the amount of balancing Anet does there's about 0% chance of that ever happening. Besides like i earlier mentioned, alot of people would dislike such impactful changes aswell.  

Just take the L and accept that it will not be changed to a ranged weapon ever. 

[scerevisiae.1972]

Agree it won't (nor shouldn't) be a ranged weapon, but it _should_ have been a _hybrid_ weapon, which it currently is not.

 

Tweaks that would make hammer an effective 600 range hybrid weapon:

• water 1 becomes a 600 range projectile
• earth 5 becomes a 600 range cone AOE
• fire 5 becomes a 600 range cone AOE

 

This would shift the balance from 6/20 ranged skills to 9/20 ranged. Hence a true hybrid weapon (that wouldn't such in wvw, my favourite game mode)

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:14 AM, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Nothing is gonna change this design. It would require a complete redesign of the current Espec and would probably anger alot of players that are accustomed to its current playstyle. 

Increase range on fire and air skills to 900.

Increase projectile speed so that it actually has a chance to hit anything outside of point blank range. (They have the old guardian sceptre problem whereby if you attack while running forward you can almost outrun your own projectiles.)

Skill 3 doesn't matter because the orbs actually striking does no damage, so you're just using it for the DPS bonuses in fire and air.

If you're fighting at range for the time being, skip water and earth. You won't get the defensive benefits from skill 3 orbs, but you don't need them at much at range. You won't get the benefits of going through your full rotation, but that's the same as any other profession with a melee weapon set and a ranged weapon set that's staying at range (and therefore sticking to their ranged set) except thief. However, you might consider very quickly cycling through earth and water just to get the orbs up before going back to fire or air (and maybe throwing the orbs).

Done. No complete redesign needed, and nothing that negatively impacts the current playstyle. It's obviously a hybrid rather than full ranged, but the only people asking for the latter are the people who genuinely do want catalyst to be thrown out altogether and replaced with something else. The ranged mode just needs to have a long enough effective range so that it doesn't feel like you'd be better off just sticking with dagger.