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Comparison of hammer v sword v dagger range (with data)


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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18YPpHisLo2kstuM--8BtTozGat-kYp7PZO_XEPex9ss/edit?usp=sharing

I defined ranged as anything with 400+ range.

 

Summary:

  • hammer is ~60% melee / 40% ranged
  • sword is ~90 melee / 10% ranged
  • dagger is ~70% melee, 30% ranged 

 

So if you were feeling like hammer had no real niche or identity, well, according to the numbers, you'd be right. Hammer and dagger share nearly the same profile of melee/ranged attacks.

 

Clearly, hammer needs more range (or more ranged skills) if it is to have any unique identity over the space that sword/dagger already fill.

Also:

  • hammer has 0 evades (though there is a single attack block)
  • sword/dagger has 3 evades
  • dagger/dagger has 3 evades

 

 

Edited by scerevisiae.1972
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I like the global idea they wanted to share, but they failed to execute; they have just forgotten D/D  already exists and elementalist doesn't have weapon swap.
I don't know if range everywhere is the only solution.  There is a lot of issues with hammer, and it needs numerous fixes.

Like the lack of mobility, access to swiftness/superspeed, leaps; or cripple/chill/immob only at melee, or the 1-hit block skill (nice idea, trash in practice) or the lack of combo finisher for a spec focused on ... combo field, the hitbox and damage issue of skills #3 ...

Earth should have ranged option, on AA or on #2 to inflict cripple at 600-900 range. It'd greatly help to ... go on melee.
A nice tweak IMO would be to lower the distances on air #4 and increase air#5 to 900, so it'll be easier to chain those skills.

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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"hammer is the new melee bruiser weapon" - CMC in elite spec video


The fact that it received any more range than dagger is already a bonus. IMO they missed the design intention, there should be more of an emphasis on damage reduction with the hammer 3 buffs and less on pitiful damage against smaller hitboxes. Even if you slap some range on hammer as you suggest you're still limited by hammer 3 hitbox (in the power benchmark just the hammer 3 loop skills do ~40% damage and that is rather ridiculous : small hitbox is supposedly 30K).

The huge contrast with daggers is that you can do decent damage in melee on water attunement. If earth attunement had bleeding on auto it would be better, right now it is underwhelming.

As a baseline for how difficult something is I believe use of two attunements should be the baseline (water+air for power on hammer or fire+air on other weapons, fire+earth for condi) as that is what you have on other classes with a weapon swap. If you use all 4 attunements it needs to outperform other specs.

For competitive the hammer block is rather weak because it's a single block rather than a channel block and there really aren't any defensive evades on it.

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I would not call 300 range on dagger as "ranged" even the 600 skill because it travails along the ground only its not a good enofe skill to call ranged. I am all for making earth 1 on dagger 600 to 900 seeing how its a single target skill as well as making water skill travail in the air not along the ground (just simply turning the skill 180 so its a disk throw). I think hammer air 1 seems to some what work this way too it needs to be fired on a different way.

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It has no unique identity because it's a terribly made weapon it's that simple. It don't matter if you put ranged on it or not. The physical design is just off the mark. 

The problem isn't the fact it "lacks ranged" the problem is it does litterally nothing. 

There's too many glaring holes in the weapon for it to function in any role. It's not standing on daggers fit. Daggers has put it in a early grave cemented the floor below it fetched itself a bed and slept ontop of it. 

Fundamentally the design needs to change. 

It has no sustain, no utility, no aura access no evades  and it's piled into a proffession that has relied on its active defence as it's passive defences are lower then any other proffession. And to go ontop it lacks any real damage too

And the mechanic is a missed opportunity 

imho when I heard them talking combining elements etc etc with the whole hammer3 and more 

I was hoping ele would get access to a F5 which would be like a fifth attunement. Which is powered by using different attunement magic to create dual attunement magic. 

frostfire, electrified waves, fiery tornados and thiand, the current F5 mechanic could litterally be a utility skill by today's standards of boon application. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/1/2021 at 8:15 PM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I like the global idea they wanted to share, but they failed to execute; they have just forgotten D/D  already exists and elementalist doesn't have weapon swap.
I don't know if range everywhere is the only solution.  There is a lot of issues with hammer, and it needs numerous fixes.

Like the lack of mobility, access to swiftness/superspeed, leaps; or cripple/chill/immob only at melee, or the 1-hit block skill (nice idea, trash in practice) or the lack of combo finisher for a spec focused on ... combo field, the hitbox and damage issue of skills #3 ...

Earth should have ranged option, on AA or on #2 to inflict cripple at 600-900 range. It'd greatly help to ... go on melee.
A nice tweak IMO would be to lower the distances on air #4 and increase air#5 to 900, so it'll be easier to chain those skills.

yeah I think hammer needs big improvements,  it doesn't have a niche. Range needs to be extended or mobility needs to be increased a lot. It was so bad in WVW.

I also think there should be at least 1 ranged skill in every element at a minimum. 

It would be nice if there were a couple of skills with 900+ range, eg: air #2, fire #4 and the #3 finale skills.

Personally I thought the #3 skills were gimmicky and weren't worth the time to cast either due to weak effects and would prefer they were totally replaced but I can't see that happening.

Edited by scerevisiae.1972
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Actaully, I'm thinking that if Anet reworked hammer, you have to believe there would be more compromise on it. It's really unlikely they extend the range and improve it's function (whether that's damage, sustain or CC) and to be fair, I think that's why it's quite underwhelming the way it is ... they already reached a compromise point where it does everything they want it to do without making it exceptional at anything. That already makes it do too much and it won't be really good for anything other allowing some guaranteed finishers, which the spec needs in order to work. 

Obviously if we need finishers, then the decision is likely down to leaning to more range or more function, but not both. 

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Water weapon skills can't heal allies neither
In fact, zero skill affects allies. Not the water skills, not even fire#5, no group swiftness, no fire/water field. (And we don't even talk about augment's skills 😘 )


I know the devil's advocate would suggest the Jade sphere aoe, but I would also suggest any weapon but hammer. Why bother ?
They could totally rework the projectiles skills to be an AoE spam (already to fix the damage and hitbox ) and grant the bonus to allies in range for example.

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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On 10/6/2021 at 1:37 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Water weapon skills can't heal allies neither
In fact, zero skill affects allies. Not the water skills, not even fire#5, no group swiftness, no fire/water field. (And we don't even talk about augment's skills 😘 )


I know the devil's advocate would suggest the Jade sphere aoe, but I would also suggest any weapon but hammer. Why bother ?
They could totally rework the projectiles skills to be an AoE spam (already to fix the damage and hitbox ) and grant the bonus to allies in range for example.

water jade sphere doesn't heal allies either. 

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I don't think it's accurate to count melee gap-closers as ranged. Ranged requires at least semi-spammable ranged damage skills and I would say 600+ is the bare minimum to call it ranged but really 900+. 400 is essentially melee. Technically dagger's water 1 is this except it barely does damage. So effectively, sword and dagger are almost entirely melee weapons (dagger is not 30% ranged in actual effect).


Hammer as-is has the potential of having a unique identity as a hybrid ranged/melee weapon with proper ranged DPS skills.  But considering the current skills, it's the melee side of hammer that has no reason to exist. It's not viable at all. No tanky features, barely any CC, barely any mobility with the leap skill also being the only sustain (suicide wish). Also skills so slow you could take a nap after some of them. It's melee skill design has no redeeming features in exchange for all those downsides. 

 

In general super slow melee skills are bad design because they will have very little effective use, particularly in pvp contexts. And unless there are some serious built-in tank or evade mechanics, we should also expect a melee weapon to have high mobility. Specifically in WvW. It will have no viability without mobility. 

 

More generally, no mobility and no tank mechanics on the class with the lowest base HP and armor in the game and you get a weapon that isn't viable period. That is hammer now. The melee side needs to be reworked and the ranged side is lackluster at best. The orb mechanic is also pointless.

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2 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Another fun hammer fact: its fire auto is one of only two fire weapon skills that cannot damage multiple targets in any way. The other one is heat sync.

Maybe that is unintentional.
Tooltip is "Singe your foes by unleashing a burst of flame from your hammer."

That is foes , plural.

https://api.guildwars2.com/v2/skills?ids=62925&lang=en

Edited by Infusion.7149
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