Coordinated Labyrinth Map Issues- Private Squad Maps?

[Justacravat.8320]

We all know tagging for anything can often be like herding cats, but in an instance where one person running ahead of the pack and insta-killing all the mobs, touching doors ahead of groups, or opening boss doors and dragging them to the group can really hurt a coordinated farm effort it's extremely frustrating when you get these kind of people in your instance and can't do anything about it. The tag has only two options- 1) Ignore them and continue through and try to get the best they can for their group or 2) Swap instances and try to shake the trolls/players who won't listen. These sort of things happen with every farm group and it gets frustrating when you're trying to farm and one person significantly cuts your bags per hour because they refuse to listen to like to make everyone else upset.

We have private instances commanders are able to open for certain events already, so why not add that ability to the lab and give people who choose to tag and make coordinated groups a way to have more control over their farm? After all, no one is running in circles spamming 1 for their health. I love love love the lab, love the halloween event, and think it's one of the best events I've played in an MMO ever, but this is the one major sticking point that really just can feel awful. It'd feel amazing if next year Anet could implement a way for commanders to be able to open an instance that lets people come and go as they please, but be able to kick those who aren't following group rules and actually kick them from the instance like you would from a strike or dungeon if someone is being bad for the group. You could do it similarly to dragonstorm or marionette where there is a public map you could join, or a private map you could open. I really think this would severely improve the quality of life for this event and take away virtually all major frustration associated with it.

[Cynder.2509]

Well since legendary armory is now a thing I think it's even harder to coordinate such a thing in lfg squads taht say no legendaries and no mounts. I like the comfort of all the hard earned full legendary equipment and I just make use of it. At first I was careful and played by other's rules but after I saw a lot of people using mounts plus the showoff legendary kitten I just thought it was unfair and so I joined those as well. Also why would you forbid skill beyond a casual? It discriminating to people who actually put effort in the game and have all this cool end game stuff. If you forbif legendary equipment then forbid rangers (they're annoying and useless in all modes except as a heal druid and even as a heal druid they're only useful for spirits because other classes can ouheal them by miles in meta comps) , minion mancers and other annoying low player skill classes/builds. 
I completely understand the frustration because what I talked about makes farming the event much harder than it used to be years ago way before elite specs and when bosses like Lich actually were harder and you had to use your brain for a strategy. kitten... I miss 2012 and 2013 GW2...

[Lyssia.4637]

I agree for the opposite reason.  When you're playing alone and just dive in to the Labyrinth to knock off a few doors or mine candy corn, it's incredibly obnoxious when you have an organized team running along taking everything before you can get there.  Especially when it's a commander who only wants to do things that don't "take too long", and therefore opens up all the legendary doors, then runs off and leaves the bosses wandering, and without rezzing anyone, in or out of his squad.  Let them have their own instance, and the rest of us do our own thing in peace.

[Danikat.8537]

I like the idea of private maps for the Labyrinth and I think it would solve a lot of the arguments that start up when people with different priorities end up on the same map.

 

On 10/11/2021 at 5:30 AM, Cynder.2509 said:

Well since legendary armory is now a thing I think it's even harder to coordinate such a thing in lfg squads taht say no legendaries and no mounts. I like the comfort of all the hard earned full legendary equipment and I just make use of it. At first I was careful and played by other's rules but after I saw a lot of people using mounts plus the showoff legendary kitten I just thought it was unfair and so I joined those as well. Also why would you forbid skill beyond a casual? It discriminating to people who actually put effort in the game and have all this cool end game stuff. If you forbif legendary equipment then forbid rangers (they're annoying and useless in all modes except as a heal druid and even as a heal druid they're only useful for spirits because other classes can ouheal them by miles in meta comps) , minion mancers and other annoying low player skill classes/builds. 
I completely understand the frustration because what I talked about makes farming the event much harder than it used to be years ago way before elite specs and when bosses like Lich actually were harder and you had to use your brain for a strategy. kitten... I miss 2012 and 2013 GW2...

They don't ban mounts and legendaries because they're jealous of the skill involved in unlocking them but because they can mess up farming. Although I can't remember seeing any ban legendaries, the ones I've seen on EU usually ask for no trinkets. (Although I suppose if you've got a mass of blobs around you from the legendary ones that's a pretty clear indication you're not following that rule.)

Lab farming groups prioritise killing large numbers of weak enemies. One player with a good damage build and full ascended/legendary equipment can easily wipe out the weaker enemies on their own, which might be great for showing off your skills but it's terrible for a farming map because it means no one else gets to tag them and get loot.

It's actually better for the group to have lots of players using AoE or cleave attacks but doing very little damage each, so everyone in the group can quickly tag all the enemies and they'll die from the multiple hits but no one person is killing them on their own, that way everyone gets to help kill everything and everyone gets loot from everything.

It's the same with mounts, their attacks can do a lot of damage to a lot of enemies (especially the raptor). They can also be used to rush ahead of the group and wipe out enemies or open doors before anyone else gets there, which again means no one else can get loot. I've found that even groups that specify no mounts don't mind if you use them to catch up to the ground, as long as you dismount instead of using their attack and don't rush ahead.

But as with everything in the game if you don't like a group's rules you can choose not to join them and find or start one you do like instead, and private squad maps would help with that.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/11/2021 at 6:30 AM, Cynder.2509 said:

Well since legendary armory is now a thing I think it's even harder to coordinate such a thing in lfg squads taht say no legendaries and no mounts.

The "no legends" that sometimes shows up does not mean no legendary gear. It means the squad will not be killing legendary bosses.

[Justacravat.8320]

On 10/10/2021 at 9:30 PM, Cynder.2509 said:

Well since legendary armory is now a thing I think it's even harder to coordinate such a thing in lfg squads taht say no legendaries and no mounts. I like the comfort of all the hard earned full legendary equipment and I just make use of it. At first I was careful and played by other's rules but after I saw a lot of people using mounts plus the showoff legendary kitten I just thought it was unfair and so I joined those as well. Also why would you forbid skill beyond a casual? It discriminating to people who actually put effort in the game and have all this cool end game stuff. If you forbif legendary equipment then forbid rangers (they're annoying and useless in all modes except as a heal druid and even as a heal druid they're only useful for spirits because other classes can ouheal them by miles in meta comps) , minion mancers and other annoying low player skill classes/builds. 
I completely understand the frustration because what I talked about makes farming the event much harder than it used to be years ago way before elite specs and when bosses like Lich actually were harder and you had to use your brain for a strategy. kitten... I miss 2012 and 2013 GW2...

I've been running lab pretty hardcore for 2 years now and I've never seen a group ask for no legendaries. IMO legendaries are great to have because it's a lot easier to change to what the group needs- more damage for the rear end so we're killing everything, less damage for the front/mid, etc. Often commanders and groups will ask people who don't have specific lab builds to take off their trinkets because with a full damage build, players will half shot a normal mob and make it so no one else can hit them and therefor won't get loot. The point of organized lab farms is to tag all the normal mobs and run in circles to maximize your bags per hour, which directly equates to either money or chances at the good drops from bags. If someone is killing all the mobs before other players can tag them, they're not really being able to farm the event and are, effectively, wasting their time. 

 

Also, the argument of "discriminating towards people who put effort into the game" is really confusing and poorly thought out. The people who put effort into the game are generally those who know what lab farm is and are there to make money to fund their other legendaries or whatever project they're working on. No one is saying you can't have skill or strategy in the lab, but there are groups who do have a strategy to maximize profit from their farm and one person not following the rules asked of them can ruin it for the whole group.

If your mindset is also "well those people are breaking the rules so I will as well because it's not fair", that's pretty childish and only adds to the problem to make it worse. If you don't like how people are acting on the map or what the commanders are asking, join a different map- there are plenty of options on how parties are being run. It's really a simple matter of respecting your fellow players so that everyone can get what they're working towards. 

[Rvoltpt.8453]

i posted this yesterday if you care to read what happened to me and what i propoused.  Srry for my bad sleepy english anyways. and also not noticing this more recent post.

i reaally was annoyed yesterday by it how one guy can screw it for an entire team, today we had same thing happen... comm goes green door, steve the party crasher shows up. then a random dude outside the party pass's by and still open boss door xD. comm left directly...  End of Fun.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Rvoltpt.8453

[Andy.5981]

Whilst I appreciate that some people have had problems with rogue players, there is a flipside to this. I've been on deserted maps farming the enemy minding my own business and a Tag has turned up. They've then proceeded to monopolise the map and despite me working my way around the map they've proceeded to jump ahead and open doors that I was aiming for.

It is still a case of "I was there first" just as much as the OP was there first in their map. It cuts both ways I suppose, two playstyles, both of which are equally valid.

Despite the above I doubt that Anet will make spawnable Private instances for the following reason.

The AFK Campers. It happens, you see it in the middle of the map, where "Steve" only goes if pulled into that area. With a private instance there will be far far more instances of single players  AFK camping, safe in the knowledge that they can spend hours in there, no-one will report them, no-one will drag "Steve" into the middle. The extra demand on the servers would I suspect be considerable.

At least now, with the way the maps operate its in keeping with the chaotic nature of the Mad Kings realm and people just have to deal with it.

[Lyssia.4637]

5 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

The AFK Campers. It happens, you see it in the middle of the map, where "Steve" only goes if pulled into that area. With a private instance there will be far far more instances of single players  AFK camping, safe in the knowledge that they can spend hours in there, no-one will report them, no-one will drag "Steve" into the middle. The extra demand on the servers would I suspect be considerable.

Don't they have a way to deal with that already, at least in PvP?  I know in WvW, the time you can be inactive is very short before you get kicked out or logged out.  Couldn't the same be applied to the Lab as a whole, or at least to private squads?

 

Which would make sense anyway, as people get irritated that they can't get into instances with their squads as it is because they are full, as another poster was talking about in another thread.

[Rvoltpt.8453]

Man every one as its " own " complains about it.

ofc sucks for a solo player when a comm takes over the map. but thats because commander as to look for a map with no tag :S.

Also imagine I wanna do a full lab guild run how long it takes now sometimes to fit all guild into same map.. quite annoying.

This is why I to was propousing to make it intanced.  So every one can decide for them selfs what they wanna do.

You could then decide go solo there in  private or make your own private team or join public.whatever you wished.

Atm your stuck to the map you get and if your not happy you need to constantly leave it and rejoin until you find the map you want. and it sucks cause you waste time on load screens rather then playing.

Also afk campers dont do as much as someone on the move. what they do is screw the loot up of the groups moving arround. They could simply create new steve pathing so he would go mid and wipe thouse afk 😛

In my view the best solution possible would b that they make the place instanced. Gives us options so we can play as we see fit and dont have to deal with things we dont want to.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Rvoltpt.8453

[Obtena.7952]

What a completely weird scenario the OP presents. As if a single player or even a few players can run ahead of a 20+ man group and clear the content like doors and Legendary bosses before the big group get there? Am I missing something? Seems ... like this CAN'T be THAT big a problem. I mean, everyone wants loot, so there is little reason for a small group to do this since it also decreases their own chances to maximize loot. 

Sure for the little trash ... few people can tag most of those mobs (or any depending on what deficient builds they are using for that content). But this isn't really where the loot is anyways.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Andy.5981]

On 10/18/2021 at 4:38 PM, Lyssia.4637 said:

Don't they have a way to deal with that already, at least in PvP?  I know in WvW, the time you can be inactive is very short before you get kicked out or logged out.  Couldn't the same be applied to the Lab as a whole, or at least to private squads?

 

Which would make sense anyway, as people get irritated that they can't get into instances with their squads as it is because they are full, as another poster was talking about in another thread.

They're not inactive. They use autoclick programs to drop AE spells around them whislt their minions, turrets or pets take care of the mobs. You can see them being bounced around by the NPCs. Sometimes they end up in a corner out of aggro range and are still autoclick casting AE spells. The only thing that takes them out is "Steve" if he is inadvertently pulled into that area, otherwise they just stand their for hours gathering the drops.

[Zentao.6314]

Making it instanced is not easy I guess.

But ANet could fix this issue with some limitations:
- when there is a commander, only let commanders open the doors
- OR when there are a lot (15-20+?) players on the map, more people needed to open the doors (like 2-5)

These would limit trolls by a lot

Edited October 21, 2021 by Zentao.6314

[Justacravat.8320]

On 10/18/2021 at 2:59 AM, Andy.5981 said:

Whilst I appreciate that some people have had problems with rogue players, there is a flipside to this. I've been on deserted maps farming the enemy minding my own business and a Tag has turned up. They've then proceeded to monopolise the map and despite me working my way around the map they've proceeded to jump ahead and open doors that I was aiming for.

It is still a case of "I was there first" just as much as the OP was there first in their map. It cuts both ways I suppose, two playstyles, both of which are equally valid.

Despite the above I doubt that Anet will make spawnable Private instances for the following reason.

The AFK Campers. It happens, you see it in the middle of the map, where "Steve" only goes if pulled into that area. With a private instance there will be far far more instances of single players  AFK camping, safe in the knowledge that they can spend hours in there, no-one will report them, no-one will drag "Steve" into the middle. The extra demand on the servers would I suspect be considerable.

At least now, with the way the maps operate its in keeping with the chaotic nature of the Mad Kings realm and people just have to deal with it.

AFK camping wouldn't be too much of an issue here because the rewards would be far less than a lot of other afk farm spots due to the respawn timers and density of mobs here. You could also solve this issue easily with a system they already use for strikes- when you enter a strike a timer begins counting down until you're kicked out. Put a few hour timer on it, require a squad and a minimum player number to enter, and you've solved the issue. Even if you do end up having a squad of afk farmers they'd likely end up similar to bauble farm where they just organize a map full of them.

 

It's also kind of hard because when a tag wants to start organized farm in a map, they can't see you or know what you're doing so it's not like they're able to know they're interrupting you. The opposite issues could also be solved with the private squad option, though. Chaos can be interesting, but not when the chaos is one person running ahead of everyone to kill everything or purposefully sabotaging a run- especially if you've spent time organizing it and have an otherwise good group who is following directions and being respectful of other players.

[Justacravat.8320]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:47 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

What a completely weird scenario the OP presents. As if a single player or even a few players can run ahead of a 20+ man group and clear the content like doors and Legendary bosses before the big group get there? Am I missing something? Seems ... like this CAN'T be THAT big a problem. I mean, everyone wants loot, so there is little reason for a small group to do this since it also decreases their own chances to maximize loot. 

Sure for the little trash ... few people can tag most of those mobs (or any depending on what deficient builds they are using for that content). But this isn't really where the loot is anyways.

It sounds like you haven't spent a lot of time in lab. Almost every group is eventually interrupted or harmed by either trolling or someone not observing the rules the organized group has. This hurts everyone's profit and can even cut your earnings in half or more depending on the severity of the issue. If someone is opening the boss doors ahead of the mob doors, now people are dying as they're trying to kill mobs when the group didn't want to touch the boss doors in the first place. Also, the mobs for the doors are dependent on how many people are present in the area when you open it. You can have 2-3 mobs come out of one door and complete the event.

Also, definitely a significant amount of profit comes in tagging the trash. This is often why you'll see serious farming groups looping around the center twice or not want to do bosses as the time you're taking to do them doesn't really justify the profit loss.

 

As an aside- I like the new bosses mechanic wise, but don't really feel like any of the bosses are worth the effort considering it takes a while to kill them and the chests are only lootable once per day. With a fully "meta" lab group, you're doing very low damage and killing these bosses takes an insane amount of time and effort.

I also think they could do something like a "hard mode" for lab that would increase the exp of mobs. That could help with the issue and would mean that open world or raid builds were less harmful to groups, but realistically making it so a commander could take more control of their instance would be the best way.

[NotTooFoolish.7412]

On 10/11/2021 at 6:30 AM, Cynder.2509 said:

Well since legendary armory is now a thing I think it's even harder to coordinate such a thing in lfg squads taht say no legendaries and no mounts.

I think you misunderstood the LFG ads: 
No Legendaries refers to the bosses in lab, not the gear you are using. People skip bosses, cuz they slow down the farm. You might see some groups asking to unequip some gear, probably to give everyone the level playfield?!
No mounts is understandable, farm would go trhough lab tagging and killing mobs and doing some green doors. Having ppl rush through the lab is not particularly productive. 

[Cynder.2509]

5 hours ago, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

I think you misunderstood the LFG ads: 
No Legendaries refers to the bosses in lab, not the gear you are using. People skip bosses, cuz they slow down the farm. You might see some groups asking to unequip some gear, probably to give everyone the level playfield?!
No mounts is understandable, farm would go trhough lab tagging and killing mobs and doing some green doors. Having ppl rush through the lab is not particularly productive. 

No, I meant the actual legendary gear as I've seen a few lfg advertisements where it clearly said no legendary weapons, no berserker gear, no trinkets! I'm not stupid! I play for 2012 and I know about legendary bosses and the difference between gear!!! 

[Lyssia.4637]

On 10/21/2021 at 4:06 AM, Zentao.6314 said:

Making it instanced is not easy I guess.

But ANet could fix this issue with some limitations:
- when there is a commander, only let commanders open the doors
- OR when there are a lot (15-20+?) players on the map, more people needed to open the doors (like 2-5)

These would limit trolls by a lot

Nah, it'd just breed new trolls; namely, those who tag up, then afk somewhere, just to keep people from opening doors at all.  And you can't go by how many players are on the map until you have a way to get rid of the afk famers.

[Valandil.6453]

Just wanted to jump in on this thread, as there aren't too many other more recent and relevant threads regarding this.

I find it incredibly difficult to get a good labyrinth farming map going. The reason I got a commander tag in the first place was so I could take on a lot of people and ferry them through the Lab without all the "running green doors only" crap. If that's for you, so be it. You play your game your way, but not in my farming map. That kind of idealism is for those who have the attention span of a stick of spaghetti (and that's insulting the pasta) and can't be bothered with the challenge of bosses. I'm here to make the most of an annual event, and I only have a few hours a day to kill in the Lab.

One thing that irks me the most about party LFG is the people who join your party get into your map, then just as soon jump off again... and then it's THOSE people that joined initially that are ruining the map for you and your squad by stealing doors.

As for the format being the way it is this year, I think it's rather acceptable, even if it takes a little longer to get acquainted with the new bosses and mechanics. A little redirection from last year's route around the Lab, and most times you'll have doors respawned by the time you revisit them. All it takes is a bit of timing and organisation.

I really hate having my run ruined by the myopic little brats that can't see past their own noses... "oh I just needed it for the daily"... in that case, find another IP where there ISN'T a commander tag present.

This year, my efforts to keep groups together have been lauded multiple times by randoms that jumped on the group just to farm bags, and there's been plenty of (unexpected but welcome) gold tips at the end of the run. It seems like running a successful Lab farm is becoming harder to do, and it needs a fresh approach to how it can be managed.

As it stands, the private instancing idea seems like a good one, as long as we can advertise it in public and then have it moved to a private instance once the group is together. The idea could use some finessing but it has to be better than being trolled by bots and idiots that can't see the sense in running in an organised group.

[Lyssia.4637]

5 hours ago, Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:

 

I really hate having my run ruined by the myopic little brats that can't see past their own noses... "oh I just needed it for the daily"... in that case, find another IP where there ISN'T a commander tag present.

 

And if they were there first?  It's not like you can select your IP.  I, in turn, hate finally finding a IP where there's no tag, only to have one jump in and suddenly start screaming that people should get off "their" map because we're ruining "their" run.

 

There's no reason to be nasty.

[Valandil.6453]

On 11/7/2021 at 2:31 AM, Lyssia.4637 said:

And if they were there first?  It's not like you can select your IP.  I, in turn, hate finally finding a IP where there's no tag, only to have one jump in and suddenly start screaming that people should get off "their" map because we're ruining "their" run.

 

There's no reason to be nasty.

Who's being nasty? It's exceedingly frustrating and grossly unfair for those farming a map for anyone who won't join on the tag and then troll the whole map of the doors they joined on the farming run for. As it is, they weren't there first, and usually if they are, I give them first dibs at joining my squad. If they still decline, then I watch them and see if they leave the party during the run; their names are coloured differently so it's not that hard to track them. Most of them will stick with me and just operate outside of the lab parameters which most commanders go by, which is known as common Lab etiquette (ie. no knockbacks, no dismounting onto mobs, sticking with the group and only letting the commander open the doors, etc.).

Trolls in particular have no empathy, and deliberately set about ruining an organised run, which is why I'm backing the "instanced" idea. It has merit and would solve a lot of problems.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Valandil Dragonhart.2371

[Lyssia.4637]

4 hours ago, Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:

Who's being nasty? It's exceedingly frustrating and grossly unfair for those farming a map for anyone who won't join on the tag and then troll the whole map of the doors they joined on the farming run for. As it is, they weren't there first, and usually if they are, I give them first dibs at joining my squad. If they still decline, then I watch them and see if they leave the party during the run; their names are coloured differently so it's not that hard to track them. Most of them will stick with me and just operate outside of the lab parameters which most commanders go by, which is known as common Lab etiquette (ie. no knockbacks, no dismounting onto mobs, sticking with the group and only letting the commander open the doors, etc.).

Trolls in particular have no empathy, and deliberately set about ruining an organised run, which is why I'm backing the "instanced" idea. It has merit and would solve a lot of problems.

Oh, I agree that instances as they do with Wintersday is the fix.

What you are describing, I can agree is trolling.  But calling everyone who won't join your squad or play your way "myopic little brats" is nasty.  A commander tag - whether on the Lab or elsewhere in open world - does not give someone the divine right to dictate how other people play the map.  Over and over during this event, I've been in pugs cheerfully doing our own thing, only to have a commander come in and demand everyone play in the squad, or simply dive in and start taking all the doors and mobs, and that's as unfair and frustrating to those of us who chose not to join the squad as your trolls are to you.  Trolls have no empathy, I agree.  I'd argue a lot of commanders need to learn some as well, and a dose of humility to boot.

 

[Valandil.6453]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:30 AM, Lyssia.4637 said:

Oh, I agree that instances as they do with Wintersday is the fix.

What you are describing, I can agree is trolling.  But calling everyone who won't join your squad or play your way "myopic little brats" is nasty.  A commander tag - whether on the Lab or elsewhere in open world - does not give someone the divine right to dictate how other people play the map.  Over and over during this event, I've been in pugs cheerfully doing our own thing, only to have a commander come in and demand everyone play in the squad, or simply dive in and start taking all the doors and mobs, and that's as unfair and frustrating to those of us who chose not to join the squad as your trolls are to you.  Trolls have no empathy, I agree.  I'd argue a lot of commanders need to learn some as well, and a dose of humility to boot.

 

It's the way people are - accept it. I have. And I deal with them accordingly. That's not being a "divine right" holier-than-thou attitude leader, it's just fact.

I'm on the other end of that argument, obviously. I scour a map to see who's on it first, not just take over the whole map with a self-righteous attitude. Like I said before, if there's other players on the map, I'll ask them to join me. Most clear off the map before I get a group together. Those that are there just grab whatever doors they can - complete and utter disregard for anyone else on the map. It's not like the doors respawn in 5 minutes either, they take a lot longer. Most people who see a map with no doors will have rather short attention spans as well. They'll jump off the map and try to get in on another with more doors available. This is flawed thinking as we can't nominate which IP to go to, not like back in the old days where there were overflow maps and you could jump between them (pre-megaserver), and most of the time we'll land back on the map we jumped out of. This is something else Anet needs to fix.

The good commanders will have loads of humility, which is why they get groups quick (like I have). It's those that DON'T join which threaten the play of the map and ruin the run for the others in group.

[Lyssia.4637]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:29 AM, Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:

I really hate having my run ruined by the myopic little brats that can't see past their own noses... "oh I just needed it for the daily"... in that case, find another IP where there ISN'T a commander tag present.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:

This is flawed thinking as we can't nominate which IP to go to, not like back in the old days where there were overflow maps and you could jump between them (pre-megaserver), and most of the time we'll land back on the map we jumped out of.

I'm not really sure what you're even arguing, anymore, so I'll just let this drop with the agreement that the Lab system could be greatly improved next year with the inclusion of the option for squads to open their own instances, ala Wintersday.

[Valandil.6453]

23 hours ago, Lyssia.4637 said:

 

I'm not really sure what you're even arguing, anymore, so I'll just let this drop with the agreement that the Lab system could be greatly improved next year with the inclusion of the option for squads to open their own instances, ala Wintersday.

Who's arguing? I'm putting a point across, there's no argument to be had.