Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

The point you try to make is pure kitten, don’t try to make it legit. The relation is unilateral to begin with. But let’s turn it around, a lot of people here delivered you now countless of examples what happened through the past 9 years (16 years). You haven’t been able to deny or deliver any counter argument against it. In fact all YOU did was doing assumptions. „Of cause it can…“, „It works both ways right?…, „There is a process going…“. 
 

Give me something I can work with. Give me an example that happened in the past 9 years of game development that would support your reasoning. For example when they deleted several traits in PvP, show me what we got as compensation. Explain why these traits are still usable in PvE but not in PvP. The whole redesign of Chrono and Mirage made them obsolet in PvP but braindead and stronger in PvE. 1 dodge in PvP, 2 dodges in PvE. Or just show me where they promised something and delivered what was said. 
 

The PvP community is playing half of the game because the Design is not made with at least PvP taken in consideration. And you still have the guts to tell people they are ignorant?

The response to you would most likely fall under, "the game is more pve centric" "you are only assuming that it works only for PvE and not PvP" or maybe somewhere along the lines of, "this is not your game clearly you don't know the vision of the game and the devs are always right and clearly you are dumb". Or how about the classic "the game offers many playstyle and other classes for you to choose."

 

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

The PvP community is playing half of the game because the Design is not made with at least PvP taken in consideration. And you still have the guts to tell people they are ignorant?

Well, let's just say it's easy to say such a thing when people think  "PVP community is playing half of the game". What half would that be?

It's certainly not the 'half' that has:

• 3 expansions with accompanying living stories
• Many kinds of endgame instanced content
• all the GS monetization
• a whole bunch of other things  I'm not going to waste time listing, which are all exclusive to non-PVP in this game

That PVP 'half' looks like a REALLY small in comparison. But sure, tell me how important it is. Tell me ALL the focus Anet has put in PVP over the last 9 years that convinced you it's what Anet should focus on when they develop a spec for EoD ... and then let's have a look at how EOD Beta part 2 looks in two weeks ... because I'm pretty sure I'M not the one who will be disappointed there. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

What did I say...along the lines of PvE centric....seriously this guy does not know how to read. 

But if that guy wants to troll some more here is what the team said themselves.

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-july-2021/

"Our communication regarding this feature over the last few years missed the mark. In the past, development priorities shifted away from WvW, and unfortunately both World Restructuring and our players suffered as a result. Our new leadership team views WvW as a cornerstone mode of Guild Wars 2, and it will be a focus of ours going forward."

 

So this is in regards to alliance.

So what does this mean??? People giving input on how the specs are not performing in a competitive game mode is relevant and valid. More importantly the last sentence of "Our new leadership team views WvW as a cornerstone mode of Guild Wars 2, and it will be a focus of ours going forward."

Yikes don't you just hate to be wrong.

Here guys is an example of a bad selective reader who likes to nitpick crumbs.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So what does this mean??? People giving input on how the specs are not performing in a competitive game mode is relevant and valid. More importantly the last sentence of "Our new leadership team views WvW as a cornerstone mode of Guild Wars 2, and it will be a focus of ours going forward."

Yikes don't you just hate to be wrong.

Except I'm not wrong because I'm not dismissing PVP/WvW as a factor in the game design. You're just ignoring what I'm saying because it doesn't support your agenda for Virtuoso being a PVP spec. It's simply not acceptable for you to misrepresent my point to invalidate it. Again, my point is this:

There isn't a reason for people to dismiss PVE content as a factor in spec design.

I made this statement as a response to MANY people who were claiming that PVE shouldn't be considered in the design of the spec. Not just secondary or last, but outright IGNORED. That's not nitpicking either ... PVE IS an important aspect of the game, REGARDLESS of what is important to an individual player. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except I'm not wrong because I'm not dismissing PVP/WvW as a factor in the game design. You're just ignoring what I'm saying because it doesn't support your agenda for Virtuoso being a PVP spec. It's simply not acceptable for you to misrepresent my point to invalidate it. Again, my point is this:

There isn't a reason for people to dismiss PVE content as a factor in spec design.

I made this statement as a response to MANY people who were claiming that PVE shouldn't be considered in the design of the spec. Not just secondary or last, but outright IGNORED. That's not nitpicking either ... PVE IS an important aspect of the game, REGARDLESS of what is important to an individual player. 

 

 

 

 

Except you continuously make Virtuoso as the main problem when its only a peak of the iceberg of the class as a whole. Virtuoso is only the cherry on top of the cake when it comes to balancing Mesmers. 

Seems like what you are doing is hiding behind the PvE wall and contributed nothing towards PvP/WvW because again you have nothing to really comment about and thats why all your comments is direct snipe on crumbs that you decide to pick up.

"There isn't a reason for people to dismiss PvP/WvW content as a factor in spec design."

"PVP IS an important aspect of the game, REGARDLESS of what is important to an individual player."

But to make it simple for you to understand the outrage because you seem to SELECTIVE READ, 

A gets nerfed because it contributes too much to C, but then they realized B is too strong so they remove it, now B is gone and A is nerfed. 

In terms of specs being targeted to a specific content that is where you are wrong, traits and utilities for PvE are very much fixed for "Optimal Builds" in PvE. There are many utility traits that are meant for PvP. That being said PvP requires a whole lot more thought in terms of balancing then PvE and this a fact.

Fact is many of the utility traits and utilities itself are very lackluster for PvP and those are what people have issues with but not only towards Virtuoso specifically but also towards CORE Mesmer because 2/3 of the traitlines are going to be CORE NOT E-SPEC.

Oh and another thing when threads are made in comment on the issues of PvP or competitive game mode then a PvE player comments and say OH CLASS IS FINE I mean...I'll let you big brain that.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Fueki.4753]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, let's just say it's easy to say such a thing when people think  "PVP community is playing half of the game". What half would that be?

I think they were referring to how professions are less than what they are in PvE, not a literal half of the game.

With Mirages having only one dodge, available stat combinations being fewer, CC skills not doing noticeable damage etc. it might really come close to half of what players can do in PvE.

[Salt Mode.3780]

25 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think they were referring to how professions are less than what they are in PvE, not a literal half of the game.

With Mirages having only one dodge, available stat combinations being fewer, CC skills not doing noticeable damage etc. it might really come close to half of what players can do in PvE.

 sPvP which is literally less then half of the game with balance problems, removed runes and sigils, as well as amulet stats.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[otto.5684]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:24 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

i get what ur saying.. but imma say, its Not hard to be one of the Largest MMORPG for years.. because the genres Been Dead for Half a decade now.

MMORPGS have only ever had 2 Massive MMORPGS, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. Once u disclude this. No MMORPGS even reaching 1mil Active Players EVER. GW2 is STILL a top 10 biggest MMORPG on the market.. its very easy to realistically manage this for the pure reason that there arnet enough Large MMORPGS on the planet to fill out even a top 5 list without including the Lower popularity ones.

this game. is a F2P Game, with Incentive for Alt accounts and has Bots in it.. and All included this game has 16million Accounts.

Now. knowing that Half the Barons in the game have over 80 accounts. Alot of the streamers and Higher profile players have over 40 accounts to cycle gold. the SPVP in lower Ranks are Smothered in bot accounts. and this all feeds into that grand Number thats Realistically NOT that high.

not when u think WOW has over 100million accounts created in it.. and so does FFXIV lol, and FFXIV Benchs above 16million active accounts duirng Large Patch and Expansion launchs. as a Sub based game. The tiny MMORPGS Classify as "one of the largest MMORPGS" because of the State of the Genre. Not because of its Success.

Yet Drive Especc Balancing and Development on it and Try to keep Driving and Remaking it continously instead of even attempting to refine a Idea.

WoW Didnt birth M+ (which became a HUGE Success) by Re-creating the Wheel.. they added a Difficulty scaling ontop of a Existing feature which was in the game from the very launch and that made it Successful. Instead GW2 has 12 Different end game Choices in PvE and no one knows what to do so the playerbase is Stretched out so thin nothing feels Active.

they didnt need to recreate features and Ditch features. because these features remain the end game cause the end level NEVER MOVES. this game could have successful PvE, if they'd stop trying to recreate the wheel every 2 seconds and just develope a End game content instead.

Theres no Reason (For example) Fractals and Dungeons needed to be Seperate things. Fractals are Just dungeons that get harder and harder and in the end Difficulties. they coulda Just reused Dungeon layouts and Use a Difficulty modifer to keep PvE Players engaged. Instead they continously pump out brand new things which take far longer to develope because they have to restart from scratch instead of Just doing what every other MMORPG Which is Reuse the same content to rpovide more content.

If they developed the game as Dungeons 5man (With added Difficulty Modifers) Strikes 10 man (with Added difficulty modifiers) then had Raids 20 man (with difficulty modifiers) 1) it'd be cheaper to churn content out. it'd be Faster to churn content out and Ontop of that would provide investment as its been rpoven time and time again. this game wouldnt suffer half the issues it does with retaining players.

a Large problem with GW2 regardless of the mode. the top critics are effectively angry about patch Lengths, time between balancing notes, and New Content, so they should develope the game in a Fashion that gives them more budget and tiem to invest in fixs these Problems.

A bit late here, ya, I 100% agree. Anet kept changing instanced PvE design for no good reason and it did not work well.

I still think GW2 was a great success as a game. In fact, it is probably the best entertainment to dollar value of any game I played. Though, key word here is: “was.” Now it is… stale. 

[otto.5684]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:24 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

i get what ur saying.. but imma say, its Not hard to be one of the Largest MMORPG for years.. because the genres Been Dead for Half a decade now.

MMORPGS have only ever had 2 Massive MMORPGS, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. Once u disclude this. No MMORPGS even reaching 1mil Active Players EVER. GW2 is STILL a top 10 biggest MMORPG on the market.. its very easy to realistically manage this for the pure reason that there arnet enough Large MMORPGS on the planet to fill out even a top 5 list without including the Lower popularity ones.

this game. is a F2P Game, with Incentive for Alt accounts and has Bots in it.. and All included this game has 16million Accounts.

Now. knowing that Half the Barons in the game have over 80 accounts. Alot of the streamers and Higher profile players have over 40 accounts to cycle gold. the SPVP in lower Ranks are Smothered in bot accounts. and this all feeds into that grand Number thats Realistically NOT that high.

not when u think WOW has over 100million accounts created in it.. and so does FFXIV lol, and FFXIV Benchs above 16million active accounts duirng Large Patch and Expansion launchs. as a Sub based game. The tiny MMORPGS Classify as "one of the largest MMORPGS" because of the State of the Genre. Not because of its Success.

Yet Drive Especc Balancing and Development on it and Try to keep Driving and Remaking it continously instead of even attempting to refine a Idea.

WoW Didnt birth M+ (which became a HUGE Success) by Re-creating the Wheel.. they added a Difficulty scaling ontop of a Existing feature which was in the game from the very launch and that made it Successful. Instead GW2 has 12 Different end game Choices in PvE and no one knows what to do so the playerbase is Stretched out so thin nothing feels Active.

they didnt need to recreate features and Ditch features. because these features remain the end game cause the end level NEVER MOVES. this game could have successful PvE, if they'd stop trying to recreate the wheel every 2 seconds and just develope a End game content instead.

Theres no Reason (For example) Fractals and Dungeons needed to be Seperate things. Fractals are Just dungeons that get harder and harder and in the end Difficulties. they coulda Just reused Dungeon layouts and Use a Difficulty modifer to keep PvE Players engaged. Instead they continously pump out brand new things which take far longer to develope because they have to restart from scratch instead of Just doing what every other MMORPG Which is Reuse the same content to rpovide more content.

If they developed the game as Dungeons 5man (With added Difficulty Modifers) Strikes 10 man (with Added difficulty modifiers) then had Raids 20 man (with difficulty modifiers) 1) it'd be cheaper to churn content out. it'd be Faster to churn content out and Ontop of that would provide investment as its been rpoven time and time again. this game wouldnt suffer half the issues it does with retaining players.

a Large problem with GW2 regardless of the mode. the top critics are effectively angry about patch Lengths, time between balancing notes, and New Content, so they should develope the game in a Fashion that gives them more budget and tiem to invest in fixs these Problems.

A bit late here, ya, I 100% agree. Anet kept changing instanced PvE design for no good reason and it did not work well.

I still think GW2 was a great success as a game. In fact, it is probably the best entertainment to dollar value of any game I played. Though, key word here is: “was.” Now it is… stale. 

[otto.5684]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:24 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

i get what ur saying.. but imma say, its Not hard to be one of the Largest MMORPG for years.. because the genres Been Dead for Half a decade now.

MMORPGS have only ever had 2 Massive MMORPGS, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. Once u disclude this. No MMORPGS even reaching 1mil Active Players EVER. GW2 is STILL a top 10 biggest MMORPG on the market.. its very easy to realistically manage this for the pure reason that there arnet enough Large MMORPGS on the planet to fill out even a top 5 list without including the Lower popularity ones.

this game. is a F2P Game, with Incentive for Alt accounts and has Bots in it.. and All included this game has 16million Accounts.

Now. knowing that Half the Barons in the game have over 80 accounts. Alot of the streamers and Higher profile players have over 40 accounts to cycle gold. the SPVP in lower Ranks are Smothered in bot accounts. and this all feeds into that grand Number thats Realistically NOT that high.

not when u think WOW has over 100million accounts created in it.. and so does FFXIV lol, and FFXIV Benchs above 16million active accounts duirng Large Patch and Expansion launchs. as a Sub based game. The tiny MMORPGS Classify as "one of the largest MMORPGS" because of the State of the Genre. Not because of its Success.

Yet Drive Especc Balancing and Development on it and Try to keep Driving and Remaking it continously instead of even attempting to refine a Idea.

WoW Didnt birth M+ (which became a HUGE Success) by Re-creating the Wheel.. they added a Difficulty scaling ontop of a Existing feature which was in the game from the very launch and that made it Successful. Instead GW2 has 12 Different end game Choices in PvE and no one knows what to do so the playerbase is Stretched out so thin nothing feels Active.

they didnt need to recreate features and Ditch features. because these features remain the end game cause the end level NEVER MOVES. this game could have successful PvE, if they'd stop trying to recreate the wheel every 2 seconds and just develope a End game content instead.

Theres no Reason (For example) Fractals and Dungeons needed to be Seperate things. Fractals are Just dungeons that get harder and harder and in the end Difficulties. they coulda Just reused Dungeon layouts and Use a Difficulty modifer to keep PvE Players engaged. Instead they continously pump out brand new things which take far longer to develope because they have to restart from scratch instead of Just doing what every other MMORPG Which is Reuse the same content to rpovide more content.

If they developed the game as Dungeons 5man (With added Difficulty Modifers) Strikes 10 man (with Added difficulty modifiers) then had Raids 20 man (with difficulty modifiers) 1) it'd be cheaper to churn content out. it'd be Faster to churn content out and Ontop of that would provide investment as its been rpoven time and time again. this game wouldnt suffer half the issues it does with retaining players.

a Large problem with GW2 regardless of the mode. the top critics are effectively angry about patch Lengths, time between balancing notes, and New Content, so they should develope the game in a Fashion that gives them more budget and tiem to invest in fixs these Problems.

A bit late here, ya, I 100% agree. Anet kept changing instanced PvE design for no good reason and it did not work well.

I still think GW2 was a great success as a game. In fact, it is probably the best entertainment to dollar value of any game I played. Though, key word here is: “was.” Now it is… stale. 

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Except you continuously make Virtuoso as the main problem when its only a peak of the iceberg of the class as a whole. Virtuoso is only the cherry on top of the cake when it comes to balancing Mesmers. 

I'm not continually doing anything of the sort ... except repeating my point to people that misrepresent what I'm saying. 

There isn't a reason for people to dismiss PVE content as a factor in spec design.

Yup, Mesmer has it's competitive gameplay problems, and my point doesn't ignore that either. There simply wasn't a hoard of people outright dismissing PVP/WvW for class design to make that statement inclusive. That's NOT selective reading like you want to pretend it is. It's simply limiting the scope of my posts to the context of the conversation that was being had at that time. Therefore, it's really dishonest for you to claim my posts are all about attempts to ignore those problems. 

But sure ... if you absolutely need me to say it, I will:

There isn't a reason for people to dismiss ANY game mode as a factor in spec design

Hopefully, that clears up any confusion you have regarding my position. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think they were referring to how professions are less than what they are in PvE, not a literal half of the game.

With Mirages having only one dodge, available stat combinations being fewer, CC skills not doing noticeable damage etc. it might really come close to half of what players can do in PvE.

OK ... I can see what is being meant if that's the case ... but that just goes back to people having ideas about how specs are developed that don't match what we can see happening.

Anet start with a theme. The features they get are derived from the theme. If those features are good for a game mode or not appear to be a consequence, not a  factor, in its design. If specs are being created to 'fill a role' in some game mode ... there isn't any evidence of that in the EoD reveals. 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952