Why no toolbelt on Mechanist?

[Cisii.8317]

Maybe Mechanist could get F1-F3 just like the mech's skills but weaker version. Lesser F1-F3.

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... because that's not actually a problem. We know if a spec isn't played at the level they want it, they change it. If there aren't Druids outside from raids, then they don't have a problem with that, why would they change it?

I mean, we can complain about it all we like but there isn't a point ignoring how Anet wants the game to work. Sort of like there isn't much point to complain they replaced toolbelt with Jade Golem Commands. 

That's true.

But what happens if Anet decides the Mechanics is going to perform the role the players want? Or they change their mind because fixing the mechanist takes too much effort? 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That's true.

But what happens if Anet decides the Mechanics is going to perform the role the players want? Or they change their mind because fixing the mechanist takes too much effort? 

You asking me these things makes me think you didn't read or understand the post you quoted. 

We know if a spec isn't played at the level they want it, they change it. We know if a spec doesn't work how they want it to work, they change it. We have lots of game history that tells us what Anet is likely to do and why they do it. There isn't a reason to second guess that or assume what they have done will result in something that won't be satisfactory to them or players BEFORE it's even been played. It has to be put in the game and played, tested and measured to see if changes are necessary. 

Do you think that Anet is so unaware of their class development process that they need players to complain about the obvious changes in order to realize they have made those changes?

This is how that convesation goes:

Players: OMG do you realize you removed toolbelt skills and all this stuff will happen, etc ...?

Anet: YES, we do know ... and?

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

If toolbelt skills were to be added for non-golem mode, I would prefer they do something to reduce the CD of the Golem F4. 

[Jski.6180]

Maybe a "ghost" pet so you can still get an use of its f1-f3 but no where at the same power of when the pet is alive. OR even just let you rez your pet out side of combat just not during combat.

[Amadeus.5687]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You asking me these things makes me think you didn't read or understand the post you quoted. 

We know if a spec isn't played at the level they want it, they change it. We know if a spec doesn't work how they want it to work, they change it. We have lots of game history that tells us what Anet is likely to do and why they do it. There isn't a reason to second guess that or assume what they have done will result in something that won't be satisfactory to them or players BEFORE it's even been played. It has to be put in the game and played, tested and measured to see if changes are necessary. 
 

Do you think that Anet is so unaware of their class development process that they need players to complain about the obvious changes in order to realize they have made those changes?
 

This is how that convesation goes:

Players: OMG do you realize you removed toolbelt skills and all this stuff will happen, etc ...?

Anet: YES, we do know ... and?

 

You don't really know any of the things you claim about how Anet  think or function and unless you can share proof of a real trend in what Anet is likely to do or not to do, you can't prove it either.
But even if your right, your way of thinking leave a lot of stuff out of the equation; First of how long it will take Anet to make changes; If any changes at all,

They have in the history of the game certainly made changes and adjustments to some things, but there is also a long list of things they have not resolved.  

An example is Scrapper, our first elite spec; It didn't see any play in any game mode for several years. It took them until 2019 to start adjusting the elite spec and it didn't see real usage before 2021. 
Even while we loudly pointed out the issues with Scrapper from the first reveal, the betas and release of HoT. 
That gives me as an Engineer player since beta a history with Anet that tells me I need to very loud and very fast, because changes will happen very slow.

Likewise we don't really know anything about when Anet think something function the way they want it; cause they are very bad at communicating that to us players. So that leaves us plenty of room to second guess if something is going to be satisfactory to them or not?

 

And the conversation goes like;

Players: You have removed the toolbelt skills and that leaves us with a lot of concerns, based on what you have shown us there seems to be great unbalanced in what is gained and what is lost in this trade off. X portion of the Engineer player base take issue with this and ain't appealed by it.

What Anet is gonna do about it, time will tell. Anet might certainly have a vision and plan, but they can never know how the community react to it.
Likewise they have a graveyard of unused utility skills, traitlines, pets, weapons and so forth across the game, which they quite clearly don't know what to do about.

At the live presentation of untamed they even joked about how many pets are unviable to the ranger and untamed probably wouldn't change that. They know the issue exist, they either don't know how to solve it or won't, pick your poison.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Amadeus.5687

[Obtena.7952]

23 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

You don't really know any of the things you claim about how Anet 

That's not true at all. We can see these things at work in how they handle the game and communicate with us. It's not the mystery you claim it is. 

I'm not leaving things out of the equation here. If it takes a long time for Anet to make these changes ... then so be it. That's their process. This is NOT a reason to assume something needs to be changed without being played/tested/etc ... 

If there is a long list of things they haven't resolved, you can't assume it's because they are problems Anet needs to fix in the first place. There are lots of reasons it could take a long time ... including that what we view as problems aren't really problems in the first place. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Amadeus.5687]

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not true at all. We can see these things at work in how they handle the game and communicate with us. It's not the mystery you claim it is. 
 

I'm not leaving things out of the equation here. If it takes a long time for Anet to make these changes ... then so be it. That's their process. This is NOT a reason to assume something needs to be changed without being played/tested/etc ... 

 

If there is a long list of things they haven't resolved, you can't assume it's because they are problems Anet needs to fix in the first place. There are lots of reasons it could take a long time ... including that what we view as problems aren't really problems in the first place. 

 

They have very poorly been communicating changes. We pretty much only know about what they wanna do as they do it. You claim we know what they are likely to do, I say we have no idea to know what they do before they do it; Because there is no trend in what they do.

I sure know that now they want Scrapper to be a quickness support, but only as they made that change.

No it's not "so be it". They are release an expansion we players paid for and I be dammed if I let them ship another expansion with a broken Engineer elite spec from the get go. 

It's a very real problem that the game have so much stuff not currently being used because it's left behind. I certainly hope and expect from Anet that they want as much of the games content to be used and played as possible.  
 

[ledernierrempart.6871]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:46 AM, Kaizoku.1298 said:

You guys need to chill... We're getting a completely different game style. The auto attacks on the mech are strong as well as the skills. Sure we're giving up the toolbelt skills but we're also gonna be like a two man team, the mech is like another player with that damage it can do (at least from what we've seen, we'll know for sure in the beta). 

 

You'll have to play specific builds with the mechanist. If you're going to be like "wHaT aBouT mY sTatiC DiSchaRgE bUiLd" then just don't play the mechanist. 

 

■ a good chunk of skills and trait are used because of the toolbelt skills which is hinerent to engi playstyle.

■ golem wont be always up. when that happens you get random laser strike on random target which may cause unwanted aggro in PvE and is unreliable in PvP.
■ arenanet already removed most annoying pet like skills from the game or gave every one an alternative (guards spirit weapon became AOE skills, soulbeast no pet mode is the go to ranger for any PvE content, scrapper gyro became wells, and necro full minions is considered as a joke build)

■ new signet spells only works on the golem when it is up. however the ultimate signet will not be usuable if golem is out.

■ no attack command.

■ trait line exist only to customize the golem. what happens when its dead? where is the synergy with other trait?

[hugo.4705]

I like the current iteration of mechanist and its f mech command skills I DON'T WANT TO HAVE THEM REMOVED.

Peoples already asking to destroy the fun and nice gimmicks of the spec -_- i prefer jade attacks than toolbelt.

Or eventually, show toolbelt when golem not deployed but that s it.

Edited October 25, 2021 by hugo.4705

[hugo.4705]

Toolbekt if golem not summoned . Lech f skills when summoned.

[Xanadrine.4352]

On 10/22/2021 at 8:05 PM, santenal.1054 said:

The mechanist is walking fodder (without the toolbelt skills or unsummoned/killed mech) and the mech will be nerfed if it is strong. Strong AI always gets the nerfhammer.

we dont know what kind of shield it has, really what kind of defense. I read it has 45k hp a breakbar so if the enemy team has to spend time to kill the mech and break its bar, they are going to be left open to your team bursting them. It comes down to making a decision, kill the mech or kill its owner. Its all moot anyway tomorrow we will see what it does. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[Amadeus.5687]

12 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

we dont know what kind of shield it has, really what kind of defense. I read it has 45k hp a breakbar so if the enemy team has to spend time to kill the mech and break its bar, they are going to be left open to your team bursting them. It comes down to making a decision, kill the mech or kill its owner. Its all moot anyway tomorrow we will see what it does. 

 

We will know the baseline HP and Toughness 2morrow. Seeing how a lot of it's defense stats it gets from the Engineer's stats, it's safe to asume it won't be having 45k in sPvP and not in WvW either unless you invest heavy into it.
And even then; 45k hp is nothing in PvP; Survival in GW2 PvP is about dmg avoidance and mitigation; Dodge, Evades, Blocks, Invul, getting out of AoE, Condi cleansing, kiting and so forth.
Any AI that get's into a zerg fight or a PvP team fight it toasted in seconds

[Xanadrine.4352]

6 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

We will know the baseline HP and Toughness 2morrow. Seeing how a lot of it's defense stats it gets from the Engineer's stats, it's safe to asume it won't be having 45k in sPvP and not in WvW either unless you invest heavy into it.
And even then; 45k hp is nothing in PvP; Survival in GW2 PvP is about dmg avoidance and mitigation; Dodge, Evades, Blocks, Invul, getting out of AoE, Condi cleansing, kiting and so forth.
Any AI that get's into a zerg fight or a PvP team fight it toasted in seconds

well look at it this way, not every elite works in wvw as it is. There are specs you get 💩on if you take them there, if the mech is not wvw oriented it wont be the only one thats not. Not everything is going to be meta for every game content, its the same with raids, high level fracts there are the best specs and builds then there are the trash specs and builds no one takes. But no one seems outraged over that, so mech will or it wont, just like every build and spec now.

[Amadeus.5687]

Just now, Zuldari.3940 said:

well look at it this way, not every elite works in wvw as it is. There are specs you get 💩on if you take them there, if the mech is not wvw oriented it wont be the only one thats not. Not everything is going to be meta for every game content, its the same with raids, high level fracts there are the best specs and builds then there are the trash specs and builds no one takes. But no one seems outraged over that, so mech will or it wont, just like every build and spec now.

I don't disagree with you; But this spec won't function in sPvP, WvW and might not even be worth bringing for Raids and FOTM. But even that said; Anet should do everything they possible can to design elite specs in such a way they could see play in every gamemode. 

And I honestly often see people pointing out across the forums the trait lines and elite specs that never see play in specific gamemode. And even if people didn't that shouldn't stop me and other PvP/WvWers to pointing out the issues we have with an AI elite spec 🙂

[Xanadrine.4352]

Just now, Amadeus.5687 said:

I don't disagree with you; But this spec won't function in sPvP, WvW and might not even be worth bringing for Raids and FOTM. But even that said; Anet should do everything they possible can to design elite specs in such a way they could see play in every gamemode. 

And I honestly often see people pointing out across the forums the trait lines and elite specs that never see play in specific gamemode. And even if people didn't that shouldn't stop me and other PvP/WvWers to pointing out the issues we have with an AI elite spec 🙂

I agree that specs should be at least viable across the game, but sadly thats not how it is. And really its not how it is in any other Mmorpg , there is best or meta in all these games, and benchwarmers too. This is something i have seen players rail about in every mmorpg i played. why is x class able to be best at y, and z class sucks at it? I think its just the nature of having a game with so many different classes specs abilities that its too much work to balance them all for every mode. 

[Amadeus.5687]

1 minute ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

I agree that specs should be at least viable across the game, but sadly thats not how it is. And really its not how it is in any other Mmorpg , there is best or meta in all these games, and benchwarmers too. This is something i have seen players rail about in every mmorpg i played. why is x class able to be best at y, and z class sucks at it? I think its just the nature of having a game with so many different classes specs abilities that its too much work to balance them all for every mode. 

 

That we can agree on, but to me there is a big difference if it's boiled down to a number games and balance.
What many take issues with the mechanist is the fundamental design of the trait treee, the severe trade offs and the fact it's AI based to such a large degree.

Numbers can be tweaked easy, the rest not quite as easy. But I am looking forward to the beta 2morrow, we are all gonna be much more informed

[Alchimist.4738]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:08 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

We need to be DEAD accurate about this if Anet will take this complaint seriously. It's the same un-true comments people are saying about clones for Virtuoso. 

The toolbelt was not REMOVED.

The regular 5 skill toolbelt is REPLACED by customizable 3 skill "Jade Golem toolbelt". We lost 2 toolbelt skills and the specific belt abilities associated with skillbar to get access to the Mech and it's 3 toolbar spaces that are controlled by the Traits. 

 

 

You still lose all the pool of toolbelt skills you'd have available on core or the other specs nonetheless, sure you gain a new pool of skills, but this new pool is much smaller than the other one, doesn't have any stunbreaks, and breaks some of the utility skill balance because they were desgined in tandem with the toolbelt (for instance the Med Kit personal heal is on the toolbelt, without it the skill becomes unplayable). The toolbelt was designed to offset the lack of weapon swap, you can use kits to get additional weapons, but they take a utility slot, therefore all of your utilities are doubled through the toolbelt.

And that's not speaking of what happens when your mech dies, and unlike Ranger which can pet swap when one of them dies, and remains potent if your pets are down, Mechanist without the mech is god awful since the entirety of the Mechanist trait lines focuses on the mech, the signet are improved when the mech is online, and you don't have a weapon swap, nor you'll have access to your core toolbelt.

I'm all for trade-offs, but without gutting your possibilities, and not having your toolbelt when your mech is offline cripples the spec far too much since core skills were designed with it in mind.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

 We pretty much only know about what they wanna do as they do it. 

... and that's characteristic of the process we see them using to make changes. There is a process for change at work here and we know about why they are doing it. This is true even if we don't find out until they decide to implement the change.

Again, don't make assumptions about 'another broken Engineer elite spec' ... that depends VERY much on if the spec does what Anet wants and if people adopt it ... and that's NOT something Anet can measure accurately until the game is released. Maybe you don't think Anet is going to follow their process to determine that. I would bet my last dollar on it. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Amadeus.5687]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Those things are not in conflict though ... whether you know what they are doing before they do it is pretty irrelevant to recognizing there is a process for change at work here and that is how they do things and we know about why they are doing it. 

Again, don't make assumptions about 'another broken Engineer elite spec' .. that depends VERY much on if the spec does what Anet wants and if people adopt it. Maybe you don't think Anet is going to follow their process to determine that. I would bet my last dollar on it. 

We are not gonna see eye to eye on this, that much is certain.

Those two things are very much in conflict; We as the consumer have no idea when or how Anet make changes, nor why they make them. I certainly don't know the intern process of Anet, nor do I claim to do; But they are not transparent to us as you claim.

Also I feel quite confident in making assumptions that Mechanist will be bad, we made them for Scrapper and we were right. Again; This is not a number game, it's a matter about the mechanic of the games and unless Anet show up with new super improved pet/companion AI, we allready know the issues the mechanist have.
Likewise I don't have to playtest it to spot the many issues removing toolbelt skills bring; I have played Engineer since beta and have 5k hours on it alone.

And again; Scrapper stands as solid proof on how Anet can release and elite spec that weren't able to do what Anet wanted it to do; Cause the entire gyro designed were broken on birth.
 

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 We as the consumer have no idea when or how Anet make changes, nor why they make them

No, that's is absolutely untrue. They tell us why in the patch notes and even in those notes there is indication of how they decide to change something (because they tell us certain things are played too much or not enough) and we do know when ... when the patch is released. 

Quote

And again; Scrapper stands as solid proof on how Anet can release and elite spec that weren't able to do what Anet wanted it to do; Cause the entire gyro designed were broken on birth.

Yes , that's true and its actually solid proof of EXACTLY what I'm telling you as a process for how a spec gets changed. If Mechanist doesn't do what Anet wants, they WILL change it ... but it's not going to happen without being measured from game play. How do you think Anet determine if a spec does what they want it to do? From biased players complaining on the forum who haven't even played it yet? No way. 

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ledernierrempart.6871]

11 hours ago, Orack.9756 said:

Laser strike is from the Signet ultimate, not random at all.
But yeah, could be nice to get back toolbet for signet and other skill when golem is not up, especially with is very long CD.

thats a laser beam. i am speaking of the random laser strike that falls down when the golem isn't on the firld. go and rewatch the gameplay reveal.

Edited October 25, 2021 by ledernierrempart.6871

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

So going over what has been said it sounds like there is a few ways to deal with this, each with positives and negatives.

 

1) Golem is powerful enough that it is worth losing those skills. Would need to offer some level of sustain to make up for F1 and be VERY hard to kill because you are effectively useless without your golem. It would also very much limit what skills are useable with the spec which would then make it very susceptible to any tiny nerfs.

This would really need Medkit to get some sort of rework to make it useable for support.

 

2)  Give us F5 to swap between pet skills and toolbelt.

Would allow both sets of skills but would be additional effort to swap between. Also the issue with some of the traits that trigger on toolbar being more spam-able. A cooldown on swapping could sort this out. It would give an active trade-off between toolbelt skills vs activate usage of Golem skills.

 

3) Move golem activation to F5, let us use toolbelt 1-4 when golem is not active. This would limit spamming linked to traits and would give us an option to use toolbelt skills on a cooldown but would still be extra effort for swapping

 

4) Move golem activation to F5, let us have our F1 toolbelt skill so at least we know we can get a heal. F2-4 are golem skills which hopefully have sensibly low cooldowns for trait usage. Accept that a lot of skills will no longer be viable but some skills will still be balanced with having a mech. You would still be effectively useless without your golem so it would need to be very hard to kill but you could at least keep your heals.

 

 

Medkit has been mentioned a few times and it's not the biggest lost in offensive roles but is a pretty huge part of  support and I don't see anything in the Golem to balance that out. They did say they wanted to Golem to have a support option so it would be a bit odd to wreck the Engineers support potential to do it.

I tend to lean towards option 3 with a cooldown here as it is a balance between having some commitment to the new mechanic without being locked out of normal skills completely.

 

Unfortunately there is a very high chance that this is going to be a spec that has a very niche and just isn't used outside of standard PVE.

[The V.8759]

My god. I haven't played gw2 in a while, but I was curious to see wether I should buy the x-pack and start playing again. As an engineer main, that decision was all leaning on this spec. But this is just a spec. Honesty, this class has nothing to do with the playstyle of an Engineer. 

It doesn't use any of the 'engineer class mechanics' at all

 

Thematics aside, this is literally a weird ranger. Removing the toolbelt skill is like removing swapping elementals on elementalist and giving it a cute pet in return. It just doesn't make sense. 

 

I'll keep an eye out for changes they might make, but so far, this is a big nope for me. 

 

Btw, haven't they learnt from Scrapper to not go for another AI class?