Catalyst update for beta 4.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

I feel like the issue people are having with your opinion is that you are enabling the idea of bad balance because not playing optimally works in open world when that's a really bad way of justifying the bad state of mechanics and balance. Balance is about making things on equal footing and to provide a fun experience in the process but the argument that it can handle trash mobs no matter how you play is just a bad argument. 

The reason is that for catalyst to perform well it NEEDS to fast swap and spam skill 3 because of how much strength is in it. The rest of the hammer is balanced around skill 3 being a staple and being powerful. The rest of the skills are then brought down to a lower level to compensate for that. They could rework skill 3 to something else and redistribute the power to the rest of the skills and I don't think I'm the only one who would enjoy that more, and then we could actually use the hammer for damage. And i mean the hammer as in swinging the weapon and casting spells by swinging it. The orbs may be on the hammer skill bar, but they are totally unrelated to actually using the hammer as a weapon/spell conduit. 

I'm not enabling that though ... it's simply how the game has worked since forever. What I'm saying isn't my imagination working overtime. It's based on observing how Anet acts for the 9+ years this existed. 

If hammer 3 is SOO strong that it ruins the concept of Catalyst through implementation, its implementation needs to be changed (and in this case, seems like a nerf). But that's no reason for people to pretend Catalyst is Weaver part 2 because 'swapping attunements" and 'melee weapons" like the person I was responding to pretended was the case.  

Edited December 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not enabling that though ... it's simply how the game has worked since forever. What I'm saying isn't my imagination working overtime. It's based on observing how Anet acts for the 9+ years this existed. 

If hammer 3 is SOO strong that it ruins the concept of Catalyst through implementation, its implementation needs to be changed (and in this case, seems like a nerf). But that's no reason for people to pretend Catalyst is Weaver part 2 because 'swapping attunements" and 'melee weapons" like the person I was responding to pretended was the case.  

Well I feel like people are calling it weaver 2.0 because it's a melee range bruiser filling the same role as weaver, and the cherry on top is that it is unintentionally (in my opinion unintentional) rewarding quick swapping to use the 3rd skill on the weapons bar, like weaver. You may be right in that it's a slight exaggeration of how similar they are, but we're all looking at this spec thinking "what is this going to do better than weaver" and the answer I guess is maybe just more power damage as opposed to condi damage and less sustain.

And I don't mean to harp on you but the whole "it's how it's worked forever" is a bad argument no matter how true that statement is. It's a bad argument for balance and design because it just totally dismisses the argument all together without needing to analyze anything. Using that argument they would never have to have skill updates or redesigning of specs because they could just let them work "how they've worked forever". No reason for them to do that whole scrapper rework because it could still do open world, and same for every other change theyve ever made. 

The thing is we're discussing the design of optimal gameplay and balancing classes between each other and whether it's fun or not. It's not about whether or not you have to play optimally for the majority of content, because you are right, that's never been the case. But that's not what is even being discussed. So, in terms of optimal gameplay I think a lot of people find that hammer #3 is antifun and that it furthers the similarity between cata and weaver not only in its combat role but now in its playstyle. 

[volca.7234]

11 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

 it is unintentionally (in my opinion unintentional) rewarding quick swapping to use the 3rd skill on the weapons bar, like weaver.......... in terms of optimal gameplay I think a lot of people find that hammer #3 is antifun and that it furthers the similarity between cata and weaver not only in its combat role but now in its playstyle. 

Mathematically false, because the launch of the 3hammer is 15sec cooldown, so to pop in an attunment just to press 3 and get out is a DPS loss in every scenario since it doesn't conflict with any other animation, so even in water the optimal way to play is to extend your aura dmg buff via water4, then press2+3 cuz 2 is a good melee dps increase and 3 doesnt conflict with it, if you pop in and out of water or earth just for the 3skill the second round of quad3 orbs will be wasted cuz the flip 3launch over will be on cool down, please play the spec more and experiment with it instead of typing 3 paragraphs 

[Ace.1784]

I find it weird that people say Catalyst is like Weaver 2.0 because you swap attunements quickly. Since 2012, that's how I've always played elementalist (Especially watching Karl in Clocktower).

When you play the spec, it plays NOTHING like weaver at all (sword or dagger). Using the base profession mechanic is not distinct to weaver.

For those having trouble with the orbs, I suggest not focusing on upkeeping the orbs. Once you get used to animation timings, then throw the orbs into the rotation. There's a Fresh Air Catalyst video from the first beta in the main feedback thread that helped me with this.

[Shiyo.3578]

Why does Harbringer, a glass cannon, get +vit as a minor trait while a Bruiser, Catalyst, gets no +vit trait? Even Weaver has a +vit trait....

[Ace.1784]

3 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Why does Harbringer, a glass cannon, get +vit as a minor trait while a Bruiser, Catalyst, gets no +vit trait? Even Weaver has a +vit trait....

You get +10-20% of your gear stat. Run gear with vitality.

[Shiyo.3578]

8 minutes ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

You get +10-20% of your gear stat. Run gear with vitality.

You don't, you do after being in combat for a while, not instantly. It's not a good replacement.

[Ace.1784]

Just now, Shiyo.3578 said:

You don't, you do after being in combat for a while, not instantly. It's not a good replacement.

Part of the profession mechanic is increasing power through time in combat. You can create a build to initiate more stacks initially if you desire; however, if your goal is to be bruisery, you should have defense + dodges to generate the stacks of elemental empowerment. 

[Shiyo.3578]

Just now, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

Part of the profession mechanic is increasing power through time in combat. You can create a build to initiate more stacks initially if you desire; however, if your goal is to be bruisery, you should have defense + dodges to generate the stacks of elemental empowerment. 

Or I can play a better class, or two of the vastly superior ele elites. Even base ele is better, lol.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[Ace.1784]

3 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Or I can play a better class, or two of the vastly superior ele elites. Even base ele is better, lol.

I'm still getting used to it, but catalyst is looking like the strongest elite spec we have. For context, I play PvE (raids, fractals, open world) and large scale coordinated WvW (fighting 1-2 guild groups with 30-60 players each)

[ScottBroChill.3254]

On 12/1/2021 at 6:26 AM, volca.7234 said:

Mathematically false, because the launch of the 3hammer is 15sec cooldown, so to pop in an attunment just to press 3 and get out is a DPS loss in every scenario since it doesn't conflict with any other animation, so even in water the optimal way to play is to extend your aura dmg buff via water4, then press2+3 cuz 2 is a good melee dps increase and 3 doesnt conflict with it, if you pop in and out of water or earth just for the 3skill the second round of quad3 orbs will be wasted cuz the flip 3launch over will be on cool down, please play the spec more and experiment with it instead of typing 3 paragraphs 

I mean yeah you're right, as attunements are recharging and while the short timer for skill 3 is still going you aren't just going to stand around twiddling your thumbs, but the whole combat phase you are swapping attunements around skill 3's timer. It's the thing that's constantly controlling that aspect of your rotation, and it's just some passive effect that I must keep up to reach a certain potential or I'll be gimping myself out of damage. Then you have some channeled skills and other slower moving skills that take up most of hammer 3's timer. Take all those ones where you spin with the hammer, you have to use those almost instantly at activating hammer 3 otherwise they will overextend past skill 3's timer and you'll miss grand finale.

If you were to take hammer 3 out, the weapon would feel much less complicated and convoluted. Combat rotations feel worse than weaver in my opinion because the hammer doesn't flow as nicely as sword or daggers, yet your forced to try and make it flow like that due to hammer 3. 

I should say I'm talking mostly from a pvp perspective, I don't know if that changes anything but yeah.