Catalyst update for beta 4.

[Mattmatt.4962]

Now that the mechanic of the spec has been fixed (yes its fixed despite what some here think), we can focus on the next top priority issue:

 

Hammer

 

Yup thats it, the whole weapon is the issue. Why is that ? Ele do not need a new melee weapon. It already got Dagger and also Sword. It needed a long range damage weapon (bow or rifle). (Staff is long range CONTROL)

In current state hammer and D/X are just competing for the same role .... And right now D/X has a huge upperhand (mobility, damage, aura sustaining).

 

Hammer need a complete revamp. No need to change the weapon actually (that would cost to much programming), it can stay hammer ... But it desesperatly need to behave more like a ranger's longbow so it doesnt conflict with existing weapon.

 

That or MAYBE make it a super slowpaced weapon .... Which imply a massive change to hammer#3. (Also make sense as slowpaced often means stat stick ... Which totally correspond to the trait)

Thats not what i advocate for but i do realize its the "cheapest" solution. A complete change of weapon seems an unreassonable request considering how close EOD release is.

[Obtena.7952]

29 minutes ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

Now that the mechanic of the spec has been fixed (yes its fixed despite what some here think), we can focus on the next top priority issue:

 

Hammer

 

Yup thats it, the whole weapon is the issue.

There was lots of feedback about hammer and it's 'melee' flavour ... and Anet didn't even acknowledge that feedback in this Beta round. No doubt in my mind ... it's never going to be a ranged weapon. It makes even less sense as a ranged weapon with how the changes to Jade Spheres. 

[Mattmatt.4962]

I actually think the change to the sphere makes tons of sense, drop on yourself, and use the zone to combo with projectile finisher from a range weapon.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Mattmatt.4962 said:

I actually think the change to the sphere makes tons of sense, drop on yourself, and use the zone to combo with projectile finisher from a range weapon.

Oh I agree, the sphere change is awesome ... I just don't believe that it's and indication that Hammer should be a ranged weapon. 

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

2 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Mind if I ask how you sustain Auras on Hammer?

They added two new sources of Finishers, in Water #5 and Grand Finalle. Now that we can cast our jade Fields more reliably, we could possibly circle through attunements and combo to get the auras.

We'll see if that's enough, but we'll probably be running  Fire trait line too in that case, for the extra aurawhen attuning to fire, and Conjurer trait + Earth shield to get at least two additional auras in the rotation (four if you pick the weapon of the ground after Earth Shield #3 refreshes)

[fuzzyp.6295]

32 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Oh I agree, the sphere change is awesome ... I just don't believe that it's and indication that Hammer should be a ranged weapon. 

Yeah, considering that 3 out of 4 of the combo finishers in this game are melee oriented, it wouldn't make much sense to have a combo heavy class using a ranged weapon. The only projectile finisher that would bring something new to the table that Elementalist can't already do is the Poison field. Maybe if Catalyst had a Dark and Ethereal field for Leeching/Confounding bolts but thats not the case.

EDIT: And.. if someone is looking to play that way of dropping fields and spamming ranged attacks... surprisingly, that option already exists for Catalyst... with Staff...

Edited November 25, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Kain Francois.4328]

2 hours ago, talesbfftt.4596 said:

They added two new sources of Finishers, in Water #5 and Grand Finalle. Now that we can cast our jade Fields more reliably, we could possibly circle through attunements and combo to get the auras.

We'll see if that's enough, but we'll probably be running  Fire trait line too in that case, for the extra aurawhen attuning to fire, and Conjurer trait + Earth shield to get at least two additional auras in the rotation (four if you pick the weapon of the ground after Earth Shield #3 refreshes)

The one trait that gives auras on combo finisher has a 10s cd. (By the way, the damage reduction trait based on aura also has a 10s cd, meaning we cannot reliably upkeep it with combo finishers...)

What we need for sustained auras are leap finishers, which the hammer lacks. Even then, we need a combo field which actually grants finishers.

Currently, our "DPS" element, water, has a water field, not an ice field. So we can't even get an aura by leaping in one of our elements.

[Sao.7146]

23 minutes ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

The one trait that gives auras on combo finisher has a 10s cd. (By the way, the damage reduction trait based on aura also has a 10s cd, meaning we cannot reliably upkeep it with combo finishers...)

What we need for sustained auras are leap finishers, which the hammer lacks. Even then, we need a combo field which actually grants finishers.

Currently, our "DPS" element, water, has a water field, not an ice field. So we can't even get an aura by leaping in one of our elements.

It's 10s cd by attunement, meaning you can have 4 aura every 10 sec. It's a lots of aura from a trait.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Sao.7146

[fuzzyp.6295]

2 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

The one trait that gives auras on combo finisher has a 10s cd. (By the way, the damage reduction trait based on aura also has a 10s cd, meaning we cannot reliably upkeep it with combo finishers...)

What we need for sustained auras are leap finishers, which the hammer lacks. Even then, we need a combo field which actually grants finishers.

Currently, our "DPS" element, water, has a water field, not an ice field. So we can't even get an aura by leaping in one of our elements.

Sao is right, those 10 second cool downs are by attunement not overall, so if you combo in Fire then in Water you should still get the two auras from the trait. It would only come into effect if you tried to combo twice in the same attunement. So it might be better to use your blast/projectiles/whirls before leaps since Leaps should refresh the Aura as its unrelated to the Elemental Epitome trait.

Are you referring to general outside of this trait line that we need more leaps to get Auras when that trait is on cool down for example? That's a valid concern, but given the amount of finishers Ele has, I don't see it really being an issue to make sure we have an Aura up. It will just require a steady rotating through  attunements I think.

Edited November 26, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[Avatara.1042]

Will have to see how the new jade fields work in practise, but the 5 second uptime will make comboing them while in water very annoying.

Hammer still has the massive elephant in the room of Hammer 3.  It is melee only, and requires us to constantly attunement swap.  Why did they cut and paste this Weaver crap into the new elite?

[Grimjack.8130]

this spec is gonna be buuuuuuuuuuuuusted yall are sleeping

[Obtena.7952]

28 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Will have to see how the new jade fields work in practise, but the 5 second uptime will make comboing them while in water very annoying.

Hammer still has the massive elephant in the room of Hammer 3.  It is melee only, and requires us to constantly attunement swap.  Why did they cut and paste this Weaver crap into the new elite?

Don't really get this complaint and I see it alot. Constant attunement swap ... this shouldn't be a problem for an ele player. Melee weapons? Again ... this is a problem for ele players? Like constant attunement swapping and using melee weapons is new or something? Even Tempest needs swapping to play effectively. 

Not sure how a 5 second uptime makes comboing in water specifically annoying. Is that not enough time to finish the field?

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Quasar.1756]

Omg....keep this post pinned, watch all the qq after beta on how Cata is OP and people's HP will be melting in PvP when fighting them.

 

As Grimjack stated earlier, ya'll are sleeping. I don't think most people are factoring in the traits, sigils and boons that balance out the remaining doubts about this Spec.

 

Prepare for nerf bats for Ele before launch. (IMO)

 

Defensive tuning with damage buffs = walking elder dragon....bet this spec will be the new "Tank" (word used by Dev himself on podcast) in raids...YOU'LL SEE

 

Ty for the trait that increases all our stats by 20% Anet.

 

oops, I mean, We just will live with theses changes *sad face*  (holds head down while giggling)

[Downstate.4697]

Catalyst was already viable with the d/d build in pvp. 

Celestial hammer ele will be meta in wvw zerging. Aura share + stability for 5s to allies is huge. With how often boons are stripped its more worth it to have consistent reapplication instead of 5 stacks for 10s. I dont think empowering empowerment is consistent enough to be worth running. They also get reliable team resistance with spectaculare sphere.

[Avatara.1042]

Oh?  How will Catalysts dominate?  One CC at a bad time and all those stupid Hammer 3 orbs will fall off.

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't really get this complaint and I see it alot. Constant attunement swap ... this shouldn't be a problem for an ele player. Melee weapons? Again ... this is a problem for ele players? Like constant attunement swapping and using melee weapons is new or something? Even Tempest needs swapping to play effectively. 

Not sure how a 5 second uptime makes comboing in water specifically annoying. Is that not enough time to finish the field?

Melee and constant attunement swapping is called the WEAVER.  We do not want another Weaver, obviously...

Combos in water are annoying because water fields do not gives auras.

[Avatara.1042]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Catalyst was already viable with the d/d build in pvp. 

Celestial hammer ele will be meta in wvw zerging. Aura share + stability for 5s to allies is huge. With how often boons are stripped its more worth it to have consistent reapplication instead of 5 stacks for 10s. I dont think empowering empowerment is consistent enough to be worth running. They also get reliable team resistance with spectaculare sphere.

The zerg is constantly moving, which makes the static field with 1.5s pulses of stability difficult to use.  You can cast it in front of the zerg, or use it when they pause to buff before a massive push, but you will not be able to use how you describe.

[Flori.2194]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Catalyst was already viable with the d/d build in pvp. 

 

Celestial hammer ele will be meta in wvw zerging.

Both statements are very bold and probably not true: in PvP it was just a core ele with an F5 that didn't do much anyway. And what's its role? Team fights? Then you go LR and then why not play Weaver? Sidenoder? It has no built-in survivability like weaver, I want to see true sidenoders rip pieces into this messy spec...

 

And meta in wvw? The wvw where auramancer tempest isn't even meta although it does the aura thing probably better than catalyst ever could? You are not sad about a tempest in your squad and in GvG you can pick one (mainly for Tornado but whatever), but it's nowhere near meta. And stab? Well, Firebrand still exists, are you having a laugh? The meta in wvw means that there are classes that commit everything they have to a certain aspect to maximize while conpletely ignoring every other aspect because other classes cover this (strips, damage, boon support, cleanses and heal; pick only one or two for 60% each). So catalyst in wvw will be a meme: Damage lacks compared to weaver (which is also a meme and number farm and not really "meta", but that's because of staff), (aura-)support lacks compared to tempest (and scrapper still exists) and boon support? You won't replace Firebrand, not even as a second boon support, you would much rather use two celebrands...

[Demented Yak.6105]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Catalyst was already viable with the d/d build in pvp. 

Celestial hammer ele will be meta in wvw zerging. Aura share + stability for 5s to allies is huge. With how often boons are stripped its more worth it to have consistent reapplication instead of 5 stacks for 10s. I dont think empowering empowerment is consistent enough to be worth running. They also get reliable team resistance with spectaculare sphere.

I didn't test the stability trait with powerful auras during the first beta but I'm not sure the stability is applied to other allies. I could be wrong but, it says: "Gain stability when YOU gain an aura" whereas elemental shielding says: "Auras you grant to allies also grant protection". Still probably the most powerful trait on catalyst but not as good as you're making out. Can you clarify if powerful auras definitely works with staunch auras?

Whether or not the team resistance is reliable depends on the new cooldowns and energy mechanics which we don't know too much about yet.

2 hours ago, Quasar.1756 said:

Omg....keep this post pinned, watch all the qq after beta on how Cata is OP and people's HP will be melting in PvP when fighting them.

 

As Grimjack stated earlier, ya'll are sleeping. I don't think most people are factoring in the traits, sigils and boons that balance out the remaining doubts about this Spec.

 

Prepare for nerf bats for Ele before launch. (IMO)

 

Defensive tuning with damage buffs = walking elder dragon....bet this spec will be the new "Tank" (word used by Dev himself on podcast) in raids...YOU'LL SEE

 

Ty for the trait that increases all our stats by 20% Anet.

 

oops, I mean, We just will live with theses changes *sad face*  (holds head down while giggling)

Before the last beta most people loved catalyst. Then after a few hours all those people agreed it was trash. 

Which sigils are you talking about, specifically? I can't think of any in particular that synergise that well with catalyst. We'll all probably end up using the same stuff as we do for weaver. And which traits are you talking about? There were virtually no changes made since last time and we know how that worked out.

What defensive tuning is there? Literally the only change to defence for catalyst as a whole was a slightly easier time upkeeping hardened auras. As for the changes to hammer, the defensive utility on focus still obliterates it. The utilities are slightly better, I'll give you that, but they're nothing we haven't seen before on weaver (which has more barrier, vitality, evasion etc.). Any other defensive qualities catalyst has were there before and we already know they were pretty bad in actual combat.

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't really get this complaint and I see it alot. Constant attunement swap ... this shouldn't be a problem for an ele player. Melee weapons? Again ... this is a problem for ele players? Like constant attunement swapping and using melee weapons is new or something? Even Tempest needs swapping to play effectively. 

Not sure how a 5 second uptime makes comboing in water specifically annoying. Is that not enough time to finish the field?

Constant attunement swap is a problem with hammer (not so bad with dagger/sceptre). On weaver we have much lower attunement cooldowns. On tempest, we have to stay in an attunement for at least 5 seconds to gain overload and then use the overload itself which takes a good 8-10 seconds. Catalyst hammer on the other hand forces you to switch every 5 seconds (4 in practice) if you want to upkeep the projectiles. And this is further incentivised by the new jade sphere 5 second duration. I usually play weaver so I'm no stranger to the piano but I'm not fancying blowing all my 10 second attunement cooldowns in quick succession to maintain the very necessary hammer3 skill.

I'm not really concerned about the melee range on hammer. I just can't see why we have 600 range skill right next to 130 range skills even on the same attunement. Is there any situation now where we'll really have the option to be at hammers max range? Ultimately I don't mind if it's melee or range. What I want is some sort of design cohesion. 

[The Fear.3865]

Cool updates, Catalyst will probably become viable in everygame mode. 

I always though that core ele was the fun spec, weaver is great but it's a bit tricky for no reason, core ele is more fluid as you can switch element faster compare to weaver, it's smoother gameplay. Im glad we are back to basis. 

I dont get the piano argument. If you want to be effective, you need to play piano with every classes, even with PvE scourge you press more frequently f12345 buttons than ele and because it's instant cast, you also need to use it at the same time you use your weapon skills. That feels even more piano to me, even if it's easy to play (spamming rotation / no hidden skill). 

You can still afk staff auto attack if you dont want to play piano, at least with catalyst you got self quickness 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 26, 2021 by The Fear.3865

[crosknight.3041]

glad to see the biggest issue i had fixed, Jade orb working kinda like scourge shades seems like a good fix to bring functionality up more. 5 second duration seems short though imo.

however, i see that the hammer 3 remains the same (minus the orbs being closer to the player), imo the orbs should have been replaced and move the orbs over to weaver. though im curious to see how it'll work now.

as for hammer see some minor tweeks were done, however i still believe it should have a standardized range of 600-900. getting tired of ele getting melee weapons. also nice to see grand finale becoming a projectile finisher, as i feel combo field and finisher should be the focus of the spec.

fine with increased duration of the traits but again, still feel the traits should be focused more on combos

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

I dont get the piano argument.

The piano argument is less about actually having to go throught the skills than keeping track of the various CD on skills that you don't see on you skillbar. But overall you're right every profession can have "piano play".

Thought, your example of the scourge fall short because the necromancer's weapons are so bad that you'll mainly (only) use scepter and torch on scourge. Making it far from being a piano play (At best, It would be comparable to an ele that camp fire).

Edited November 26, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[The Fear.3865]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The piano argument is less about actually having to go throught the skills than keeping track of the various CD on skills that you don't see on you skillbar. 

True tho, and that is why it's good for catalyst to get a slow weapon. Swap attunments + fast casting skills on weaver sword feels like you need to spam x10 times more than other professions. 

I was taking scg example cause you often need to push multiple skills at the same time because of instant casts (f + weapon skills), but yea it's a bit trolling 😜

Edited November 26, 2021 by The Fear.3865

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Melee and constant attunement swapping is called the WEAVER.  We do not want another Weaver, obviously...

Well, it's called Ele ... Again, melee and swapping is not exclusive to Weaver. How do you define CONSTANT and why do you think you have to play Catalyst like you do Weaver when swapping Elements? You realize that Weaver Attunment recharge is 4 seconds and Catalyst is 10 seconds? That's hardly constant. in fact, 10 seconds is TYPICAL and Weaver with 4 seconds is an EXCEPTION to it. 

Quote

Combos in water are annoying because water fields do not gives auras.

Grande Finale has a finisher in water so water fields can give an aura.

Sounds to me like you need to dig a little deeper and do some research before making claims about Catalyst. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Grande Finale has a finisher in water so water fields can give an aura.

I'm fully aware that you're just arguing just to argue, but atleast try to provide as precise information as posssible.
Water Fields themselves do not provide any auras via combos, it only can happen thanks to the trait that has 10s cd and that's completely different thing than just comboing a field via leaps to gain aura.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm fully aware that you're just arguing just to argue, but atleast try to provide as precise information as posssible.
Water Fields themselves do not provide any auras via combos, it only can happen thanks to the trait that has 10s cd and that's completely different thing than just comboing a field via leaps to gain aura.

Listen, we are talking SPECIFICALLY about Catalyst here and anyone up on their knowledge of the spec knows finishing a field gives an aura due to that trait ... and water has a finisher with Grande Finale. I'm not arguing to argue.  The poster said it was 'annoying' to combo in water because it doesn't aura  in the context of the thread which is about Catalyst (and his post even REFERS to Jade Spheres) ... therefore, he's WRONG. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952