Untamed Beta 4 changes + ambush skills

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

22 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

...I can only assume you recognise how visually awful the effect is?...

I'm pretty sure the effect is just a cut/paste of the poison field from Nicobar's Chopper in the DWC Meta!

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

...I guess we got another only pve e-spec..

But what does it offer to make it a good choice over Soulbeast? Right now... Nothing.

[anduriell.6280]

6 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

But what does it offer to make it a good choice over Soulbeast? Right now... Nothing.

I think you are coorect 100%

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I think you are coorect 100%

If it stays as is, I do actually think I will use it for a niche LB/LB build because you can get extremely fast skill recharge times for LB goes brrrrr, but that is it.

 

I think what Untamed really needs is group support, as much as I would like to see them lean into that more for Soulbeast by buffing Leader of the Pack. It is where everything else is going and means it would be less 1 dimensional. Seriously, all you need is a single trait which could be a minor, since you would need Nature Magic as well to really take advantage of it.

"Whenever your pet gains a boon, it grants that boon to other allies in range. This effect does not affect the Ranger."

[enkeny.6937]

15 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That is incorrect, The untammed traits unless specificaly states it impacts the pet, do not do anything for the pet. I think there is only a couple of those which improve the pet feral skills somehow. 

Soulbeast will be definitely better as untammed doesn't even bring any group utility and the pet will definitely be a hindrance or dead in most of the situations. 

I guess we got another only pve e-spec, two counting with druid. 

 

First, I literally write "only 1" trait for untamed. And 1 is more then 0. 
Second. Soulbeast, even druid, is better than untamed in most case. But if you want to focus on your pet, untamed looks better.
Is it PvE only? Well, not for raid, maybe fractals. For sPvP, well if decap druid count as a PvE only spec, that means we don't need to discuss this. For WvW, I think numbers will speak. We got barrier, stability, stun break, new skills. I don't think it is hopeless.

[anduriell.6280]

10 hours ago, enkeny.6937 said:

First, I literally write "only 1" trait for untamed. And 1 is more then 0. 
Second. Soulbeast, even druid, is better than untamed in most case. But if you want to focus on your pet, untamed looks better.
Is it PvE only? Well, not for raid, maybe fractals. For sPvP, well if decap druid count as a PvE only spec, that means we don't need to discuss this. For WvW, I think numbers will speak. We got barrier, stability, stun break, new skills. I don't think it is hopeless.

I missed that "only 1", i missunderstood you message. 

In PvP it lacks defensive tools Druid provides (sealth / heals ) so it will be worse than Druid. In WvW all those buffs are selfish so Soulbeast will be better with better numbers and the posibilty of bringing some marginal group support with leader of the pack.

Right now i think the e-spec is irrevelant and it brings nothing. More cleave is nothing if it doesn't comes with some group utilities. 
Yes it brings more boon removal with the trait on the ambush skills and the pet but nothing compared to what a spellbreaker or a necro can bring. 

Also the cleanse every 35 (?) seconds is not enough for roaming and as frontliner the fact can't be used for the pet is a problem because that companion will melt to condition even in passive. Bringing a OP pet which is not affected by conditions in EoD is not a good solution imo. 

Alhtough i think the changes brought in the beta 4  are good I really really think this is a wasted oportunity:

• The expores thingy should become the heal skill similar to how the druid ones work but posion instead the blind and less cleanses. The fact that untamed can heal all around with some cleanses  would be a nice utility to have in an squad even if the heal is not that great by itself, it would help the pet with heals and cleanses. 
• The perilous gift should become an utility and share the buff with up to 5 allies around the player and pet. It could keep current functionality but instead heal provide barrier to balance the fact that is an utility and it is shared. This also would be a nice utility which could bring Willbender's/Untammed's unique effect to allies. 
• Both of them could benefit from a cast reduction depending on specific conditions so the utilities can be used more often the more allies are around and the same utilities would not feel that special for roaming.
• Mutate conditions should also work on the pet applying the condition to the pet too. I would go for some damaging condition to balance some CD reduction the more conditions it cleanses but vulnerabilty it is fine without the reduction. The fact the pet will melt by conditions and there is nothing the ranger can do about it is a problem, as in squad the direct damage is not much of a problem with all those reflection bubbles but the AoE conditons on ground.  So mutate and the healing spores should bring that. 

Switching a pet is not a solution to keep the pet alive, it should not considered as means to keep the pet alive.  Pets will bring specific utilties and you can not equip two of the same. It may be the case the untammed must stay in the support pet but because it melts so fast it is not possible to get any use from their F1-F3 skills. Switching a pet means the ranger loses access to specific skills for 20-60 seconds. 

The vision I received from Anet devs is the untammed is a kind of frontliner squad powerhouse but without any group support the boonrip or CCs are not simply enough to do anything, simply because CCs will do 0 damage in PvP or WvW. 

I am afraid just doing this kind of patches without tackling the actual issues: Team utilities and Pet sustain, the e-spec will be buffed like bunker druid and then nerfed to oblivion until it becomes totally irrelevant only pve openworld usable e-spec .

Edited November 30, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[enkeny.6937]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I missed that "only 1", i missunderstood you message. 

In PvP it lacks defensive tools Druid provides (sealth / heals ) so it will be worse than Druid. In WvW all those buffs are selfish so Soulbeast will be better with better numbers and the posibilty of bringing some marginal group support with leader of the pack.

Right now i think the e-spec is irrevelant and it brings nothing. More cleave is nothing if it doesn't comes with some group utilities. 
Yes it brings more boon removal with the trait on the ambush skills and the pet but nothing compared to what a spellbreaker or a necro can bring. 

Also the cleanse every 35 (?) seconds is not enough for roaming and as frontliner the fact can't be used for the pet is a problem because that companion will melt to condition even in passive. Bringing a OP pet which is not affected by conditions in EoD is not a good solution imo. 

Alhtough i think the changes brought in the beta 4  are good I really really think this is a wasted oportunity:

• The expores thingy should become the heal skill similar to how the druid ones work but posion instead the blind and less cleanses. The fact that untamed can heal all around with some cleanses  would be a nice utility to have in an squad even if the heal is not that great by itself, it would help the pet with heals and cleanses. 
• The perilous gift should become an utility and share the buff with up to 5 allies around the player and pet. It could keep current functionality but instead heal provide barrier to balance the fact that is an utility and it is shared. This also would be a nice utility which could bring Willbender's/Untammed's unique effect to allies. 
• Both of them could benefit from a cast reduction depending on specific conditions so the utilities can be used more often the more allies are around and the same utilities would not feel that special for roaming.
• Mutate conditions should also work on the pet applying the condition to the pet too. I would go for some damaging condition to balance some CD reduction the more conditions it cleanses but vulnerabilty it is fine without the reduction. The fact the pet will melt by conditions and there is nothing the ranger can do about it is a problem, as in squad the direct damage is not much of a problem with all those reflection bubbles but the AoE conditons on ground.  So mutate and the healing spores should bring that. 

Switching a pet is not a solution to keep the pet alive, it should not considered as means to keep the pet alive.  Pets will bring specific utilties and you can not equip two of the same. It may be the case the untammed must stay in the support pet but because it melts so fast it is not possible to get any use from their F1-F3 skills. Switching a pet means the ranger loses access to specific skills for 20-60 seconds. 

The vision I received from Anet devs is the untammed is a kind of frontliner squad powerhouse but without any group support the boonrip or CCs are not simply enough to do anything, simply because CCs will do 0 damage in PvP or WvW. 

I am afraid just doing this kind of patches without tackling the actual issues: Team utilities and Pet sustain, the e-spec will be buffed like bunker druid and then nerfed to oblivion until it becomes totally irrelevant only pve openworld usable e-spec .

Wow, I can totally agree with this!
(especially for the pvp summary)


And for pet sustain,  the problems still in the core ranger. if switching pet would be a solution, then the cd is too huge. 
And in my opinion, heal as one should revive the pet or when the pet dies, it remove the cd from switch pet. 

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

Changes seem good, but my biggest grip with Untamed was how I had to micromanage everything in order to deal damage and survive. Getting access to your whole pet abilities, having the untamed mechanic, having a weapon swap, having your skills, and now getting Ambush, means 4 different sources of abilities (Pet / Unleash-Ambush / Weapon swap / Skills) to deal with, track and manage. Since we're playing a dynamic combat oriented game where you just can't stand still and go through a whole rotation (like in FFXIV for SAM or BLM for example), it sounds overly complex and doesn't really fit the fast paced fights.

Sounds like some very busy work in order to eventually do the same thing a Core Ranger, or even better, a SB can do with just pressing a few buttons.

Not sure if I'm the only one feeling this way but I'd like a more streamlined design for Untamed. Right now it feels too much to track for no real impactful benefit.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Neva Eilhart.5347

[Levetty.1279]

Ambush cooldown is 15 seconds. I can already tell you this is too long.

[enkeny.6937]

5 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Ambush cooldown is 15 seconds. I can already tell you this is too long.

yes it is, and Fervent Force doesn't help :'( 
Can we ask a Deadeye or mirage how about a 15 sec cd for ambush skills....
I hoped it is 5 sec or 9, same weapon swap 
at least we have an icon for it 🙂

[Substance E.4852]

9 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Ambush cooldown is 15 seconds. I can already tell you this is too long.

It's also only available for roughly two seconds after swap

Any pvp'er worth a kitten is going to see these "big impact" skills coming from a mile away

[kettering.6823]

After playing for a while I have to say I agree with everyone saying that it feels like just too much to micromanage. With a condi spec I *could* get up to 9k poison/11k bleed, but it's extremely difficult to do when I can instead rack up almost 30k bleed on condi SB (maybe just a bleed spec would work better, but I just really wanted to make a poison spec work) with a much simpler rotation. Love the idea of ambushes but agree that the cooldown is a bit too long, and also there's no real indicator for said cooldown. 

Also, maybe it's just been so long since I played anything but SB, but have ranger pets always been this squishy? They seem to die when you sneeze on them. Even unmerged on SB they seem to last longer. 

Will have to play around a bit more with a bruiser/frontline power build to see if I like it better.

Edited December 1, 2021 by kettering.6823

[vectorfox.6894]

53 minutes ago, kettering.6823 said:

After playing for a while I have to say I agree with everyone saying that it feels like just too much to micromanage. With a condi spec I *could* get up to 9k poison/11k bleed, but it's extremely difficult to do when I can instead rack up almost 30k bleed on condi SB (maybe just a bleed spec would work better, but I just really wanted to make a poison spec work)

 

Were you trying to do a poison spec on SB or Untamed? SB should be much better for a poison spec as you get to make use of the trait that increases poison damage by 25% as you can merge with your pet.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

11 minutes ago, vectorfox.6894 said:

 

Were you trying to do a poison spec on SB or Untamed? SB should be much better for a poison spec as you get to make use of the trait that increases poison damage by 25% as you can merge with your pet.

That affects the Ranger's Poison damage already. The pet just applies the additional poison stacks after using a Beast ability, the poison damage from those stacks is calculated from the Rangers Condi Damage stat though. For this trait alone, it is actually better to use a pet since you can trigger it much more frequently than you can with merged SB beast skills. Like with a Bird and Beastmastery, you can do it every 4.75s (in theory). In practise it is longer than that because of cast times etc.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

Hammer skills:

- They still all feel a bit too similar to each other. The leap should probably be changed to another skill with a shorter cd.

- It seems it's too easy to not get the ambush skill to work correctly

 

Ambush skills:

- The time window when they are available should be increased
- A clearer tell on the 1 skill when they are available would be nice

 

Pets:

- They should use their regular skills automatically when unleashed

- Have the option so set pet skills to autocast

- Enveloping Haze would be nice if the pet teleported back to the ranger and triggered the spore cloud there

 

Cantrips:

- Perilous Gift should grant the same effect to the pet

- Exploding Spores are still way to hard to land the knock down effect

 

General:

- A visual tell on the character if it's in unleashed state (while the previous effect was a bit too much to some people, removing it completly wasn't the right way to go imho)

[Substance E.4852]

21 minutes ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

General:

- A visual tell on the character if it's in unleashed state (while the previous effect was a bit too much to some people, removing it completly wasn't the right way to go imho)

Why?

This isn't something as intense as CA form or Beastmode

It's just 15% extra damage if the player isn't using a hammer

Ambush skills have a 2 second window of use when you switch to "player unleashed" and it displays a plenty obvious effect when that happens

[Kaenaydar.5631]

On 11/30/2021 at 10:37 PM, kettering.6823 said:

After playing for a while I have to say I agree with everyone saying that it feels like just too much to micromanage. With a condi spec I *could* get up to 9k poison/11k bleed, but it's extremely difficult to do when I can instead rack up almost 30k bleed on condi SB (maybe just a bleed spec would work better, but I just really wanted to make a poison spec work) with a much simpler rotation. Love the idea of ambushes but agree that the cooldown is a bit too long, and also there's no real indicator for said cooldown. 

Also, maybe it's just been so long since I played anything but SB, but have ranger pets always been this squishy? They seem to die when you sneeze on them. Even unmerged on SB they seem to last longer. 

Will have to play around a bit more with a bruiser/frontline power build to see if I like it better.

I am a core ranger myself and i think the not letting pets auto cast their skills does make the pet weaker. I use a smokescale as a defensive pet and its normally pretty tough. I am a marauder build but i did notice my pet took more actual damage from npcs with me having to use pets skills.