Beta 4 Elite Specialization Specter Balance Notes (11/24/21)

[TwiceDead.1963]

I don't get this. How is 1-target healing supposed to outshine or hell just compete with 5/10-man healing? I don't see this as much competition, especially not when you nerf our 3-target barrier application. Then again we are touted to be single-target healing focused so complaining about the intended function here is kinda silly... Apparently we ordered this and got what we wanted.

As for alacrity bots, we dedicate 3-4 utility slots to keep permanent alacrity while Renegade presses one button on cooldown. One is simply much easier to do.

For boons or damage, the wells themselves don't do much in a raid or meta-setting. Bounty gives boons the party doesn't have, but the party already has ALL of them so there's nothing to add, and the same for conditions, the boss already has every condition available, so there's not going to be anything to apply there either. The wells need to refresh durations or something.

12 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Plenty of people said this about Deadeye.

I hate this but they were kinda right. I mainly play Deadeye, and I see 10 Daredevils before I encounter one of my own, and it's usually someone just grinding the HPs in HoT.

Edited November 25, 2021 by TwiceDead.1963

[Will.9785]

They completely ignored like 99% of the feedback and 'fixed' things that no one was complaining about.

How's about dropping the allied targeting altogether and using ground targeted or AOE skills to give support like every other class?  They talked about how manually targeting allies wasn't fun in the patch notes and used that as justification to nerf endless night but then they still left in the thing that made it not fun... which was the freaking allied targeting.  Why?  It's going to be just as annoying and unfun when providing barrier and the like.

No mention of the fact that a bunch of the skills are non-functional in action camera either!!

We ended up with the worst support spec in the game and another wasted elite specialization.  Daredevil for another 2-3 years it is then!  And yes, Deadeye is dead.  Most people don't trifle with the rifle.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Will.9785

[Graeaw.6329]

So if I dare to take any other Trait than the one with Alacrity on Wells, I am literally just a single target heal/barrier bot?
Budget Revenant vibes, I really don't like it. Either they vastly overrate the value that Specter brings in terms of single-target support, or we were never meant to be competitive in the first place.

[kash.9213]

20 minutes ago, Will.9785 said:

They completely ignored like 99% of the feedback and 'fixed' things that no one was complaining about.

How's about dropping the allied targeting altogether and using ground targeted or AOE skills to give support like every other class?  They talked about how manually targeting allies wasn't fun in the patch notes and used that as justification to nerf endless night but then they still left in the thing that made it not fun... which was the freaking allied targeting.  Why?  It's going to be just as annoying and unfun when providing barrier and the like.

No mention of the fact that a bunch of the skills are non-functional in action camera either!!

We ended up with the worst support spec in the game and another wasted elite specialization.  Daredevil for another 2-3 years it is then!  And yes, Deadeye is dead.  Most people don't trifle with the rifle.

Action Camera works really well with Rifle, especially with Death's Retreat, but I have to actively level out or launch a slightly arched shot on the target or hold a top down view while slightly turning into the skills action sometimes. That can turn into a problem with Specter when you can't position and pan camera just right depending on where you and the group are to your target. And then some Specter skills are just not going to be a factor in Action Cam with their speed and pathing but at least it's not all of them.

[Zacchary.6183]

6 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

They said it themselves it was underused compared to everything else and then addressed none of the reasons why with balance patch that stated such.

The reason why its bad is because nobody knows how to get the most out of it. I see it all of the time. Everyone tries to stick to rotations instead of taking advantage of the spammability of some skills while managing resources. They don't try to balance out their builds so they can have a bit of survivability. They're too busy being squeamish about "gimmicks" to really play to the thief's strength. And they don't know these strengths because they only know the meta. One of the biggest problems thief faces right now is the playerbase holding itself back.

[Asur.9178]

Based on the notes, they didn't even address all the bugs I noted here, and they completely ignored some of the core issues with the spec, which includes Improvisation, that god awful 300s trait (Shallow Grave), and a minor trait (Dark Sentry) that does NOTHING for the thief/player itself. Before even thinking about nerfing something, they should try address core issues...which they failed to do.

Also, that nonsense about them always wanting specter to be an alacrity source and not quickness is well...nonsense, and is something new they decided on. It's contradictory to what they claimed when they first showed specter. Having said that, it's not really a problem; BUT, the way specter achieves this currently and the tradeoff for achieving it is NOT worth it. There's no reality in which I'd ever consider taking this over what already exists in the game in its current iteration (most of the wells are not actually that good either).

Personally, I don't really care about Endless Night being a single target; but, the fact that it does NOTHING for the thief/player and doesn't even apply the benefits to thief itself is a joke. There's no reality where I would ever consider buffing someone else over damaging the enemy with that skill as it currently stands - that applies to Shadow Sap as well.

Dawn's Repose did not need a range and radius nerf (that's a 2 tiered nerf). What it needed was more control...that's it. It does 0 damage in PvP anyway because it's considered a cc skill. If I am to take a wild guess, it probably uses the same animation as Call to Anguish (a 600 range skill with a 360 radius pull, which also damages).

I'm not even going to comment on the Consume Shadows trait change right now. There's so many problems with this approach to try address a core issue, which isn't actually the trait itself.

These notes and changes are a good example of why I stopped posting about bugs and giving constructive criticism in regards to thief for so long, until Specter was announced - it's just very frustrating to see. These kind of changes based on all the feedbacks really makes you question who they are actually listening to, if anyone.

[Tails.9372]

4 hours ago, Will.9785 said:

They completely ignored like 99% of the feedback and 'fixed' things that no one was complaining about.

To be fair people did complain about Consume Shadows overshadowing other things and while many pointed out that these other things were also riddled with problems very few actually reiterated that the issue here wasn't with Consume Shadows.

Now granted, whether or not doing that would have actually changed anything is questionable as they barely felt the need to address any of the things people commonly brought up (even the non controversial stuff like the general distaste for the forced teleport on Measured Shot).

1 hour ago, Asur.9178 said:

Personally, I don't really care about Endless Night being a single target; but, the fact that it does NOTHING for the thief/player and doesn't even apply the benefits to thief itself is a joke.

Pretty much this, if they wanted Specter to be overly limited in regards to the support it brings to the table then there is no reason for it to go almost full altruism here. Self application for its own boons and barrier on enemy targeting is the least thing they should have given it in the face of the upcomming nerfs to group support.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Doggie.3184]

6 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

The reason why its bad is because nobody knows how to get the most out of it. I see it all of the time. Everyone tries to stick to rotations instead of taking advantage of the spammability of some skills while managing resources. They don't try to balance out their builds so they can have a bit of survivability. They're too busy being squeamish about "gimmicks" to really play to the thief's strength. And they don't know these strengths because they only know the meta. One of the biggest problems thief faces right now is the playerbase holding itself back.

It's bad because it's a bad idea and only done because they thought it'd "look cool" but that's as far as the thought process got.

Rifle was a completely unnessary weapon that fits a style already covered with pistols with every weapon skill the same concept between them with slight differences. They failed to do anything usefully unique with it and gutted pistols just so it can exist at all for the sole purpose of slightly longer range. Most DE players who do actually exist don't even use the rifle. 

[Zacchary.6183]

@Doggie.3184 They probably gutted pistol for the same reason they did daggerstorm, because daggerstorm back then could completely decimate a small group. Ricochet's Unload spam had the same effect to a lesser degree so it shouldn't have come to anyone's surprise they would nerf it too. As for range, yes, thief kinda needed it because anet's fixes to weapon ranges left thief at 900 while everyone else had 1200 to 1500 options. Thief got completely kicked out of WvW zergs. Back then the only thing that would reach out past 900 besides steal was Cluster Bomb, and they fixed that. So thief was left without a decent ranged option. That's why something like Deadeye was desired.

Also 1500 from 900 isn't "slightly longer range" and Deadeye has enough damage boosts built in you don't even need to go full glass to deal heavy damage. Stark difference from daredevil, but then again that spec was built for evades and interrupts which only a handful of thieves even utilize, interrupts much less so. Deadeye provided more stealth access and self buffing at range. M7, assuming you can chain kills quickly, will max out every boon you'll ever need so you won't HAVE to stack. Rifle even has some mobility which I almost never see being utilized.

This goes back to my point, nobody knows how to play thief properly. You have daredevil which worked so well with d/d conditions that it took 2 days of fotm spotlight for anet to have to nerf it. Nobody played it up to that point because it was "gimmicky" and "no skill". But to those who have and know how to use it could easily bleed players and bosses to death. How many in the thief community can say they've seen 20k bleed ticks multiple times in strike/dragon response missions? Watch players who've burned their condition cleanse melt away because the large stack of bleeds and poison they just cleansed was reapplied? Very few, because very few do not care about gimmickiness.

[Doggie.3184]

53 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

@Doggie.3184 meow

1050 + Ricochet distance. Raising range beyond that isn't an excuse to make a 2nd single target weapon with the exact same weapon skills and gameplay. The spec is a waste of space nomatter how you look at it in it's current form. The main concept shouldn't be so empty and easily thrown out for core weapons.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

1050 + Ricochet distance. Raising range beyond that isn't an excuse to make a 2nd single target weapon with the exact same weapon skills and gameplay.

Their main excuse was standardizing weapon ranges. And no, "exact" is stretching it. Rifle has Sniper's Cover and Silent Scope with a better shadowstep to keep away as well as distance.

[Fizz.9384]

22 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

There isn't an event I don't see at least one Deadeye other than myself. And there are still thieves who bring Deadeye into WvW. Idk about PvP but Deadeye is used quite a bit.

 

How about fractals? How about raids other than QTP kite or Q1 kite? Rifle deadeye was the first spec that got me really hooked to the game. Then I realized how much kneeling handicaps you in a game where mobility is so important, so I found a pistol/pistol deadeye build that I loved for open world. But eventually you realize that Daredevil just has better dps while being easier to use. Now I use deadeye strictly for QTP kite and sometimes WvW. For everything else I use daredevil.

Like deadeye, I get the feeling specter will see little to no use in end game content because this single target healing will never be as good as firebrand and druid for group content, and renegade will just be better at providing alacrity along with other more useful utility (e.g. stability from Jalis, boon strip from Mallyx, projectile block from Ventari).

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, Fizz.9384 said:

 

How about fractals? How about raids other than QTP kite or Q1 kite? Rifle deadeye was the first spec that got me really hooked to the game. Then I realized how much kneeling handicaps you in a game where mobility is so important, so I found a pistol/pistol deadeye build that I loved for open world. But eventually you realize that Daredevil just has better dps while being easier to use. Now I use deadeye strictly for QTP kite and sometimes WvW. For everything else I use daredevil.

Like deadeye, I get the feeling specter will see little to no use in end game content because this single target healing will never be as good as firebrand and druid for group content, and renegade will just be better at providing alacrity along with other more useful utility (e.g. stability from Jalis, boon strip from Mallyx, projectile block from Ventari).

You realize you do not need to kneel with rifle, right? Kneeling is so you can reach out to 1500 from say a safe spot and get some extra damage. Death's Judgement hits the same no matter which stance. You also realize that Traversing Dusk aoe heals and provides a small chunk of force, right? Combine it with sword 2 at close range with wells, build up shadow force, wait a few seconds and then release for aoe burst heal. You don't need scepter.

[Fizz.9384]

34 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

You realize you do not need to kneel with rifle, right? Kneeling is so you can reach out to 1500 from say a safe spot and get some extra damage. Death's Judgement hits the same no matter which stance. You also realize that Traversing Dusk aoe heals and provides a small chunk of force, right? Combine it with sword 2 at close range with wells, build up shadow force, wait a few seconds and then release for aoe burst heal. You don't need scepter.

 

Yes, you don't need to kneel, but not kneeling is a significant dps loss. To be clear, I'm concerned about end game content such as raids and fractals, not open world. In open world any deadeye build is viable as is any build from any other profession.

You're talking about the AoE heal from the consume shadows trait when leaving shadow shroud. We will see in the next beta if that alone is competitive for group healing. They did just heavily nerf it, which is where my concern is coming from. The changes to sc/p 3 and consume shadows overall heavily nerfed specter's ability to provide healing for the group. But we'll see. I have much more to say and suggest in response to the changes Anet made, but I'll hold my thoughts until after I actually test specter in the next beta.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Fizz.9384
typo

[Zacchary.6183]

3 hours ago, Fizz.9384 said:

 

Yes, you don't need to kneel, but not kneeling is a significant dps loss. To be clear, I'm concerned about end game content such as raids and fractals, not open world. In open world any deadeye build is viable as is any build from any other profession.

You're talking about the AoE heal from the consume shadows trait when leaving shadow shroud. We will see in the next beta if that alone is competitive for group healing. They did just heavily nerf it, which is where my concern is coming from. The changes to sc/p 3 and consume shadows overall heavily nerfed specter's ability to provide healing for the group. But we'll see. I have much more to say and suggest in response to the changes Anet made, but I'll hold my thoughts until after I actually test specter in the next beta.

Raids can be done in exotic gear so long as the build has the damage, the players do the mechanics properly and not just autoattack the entire time. With that said, half of rifle damage is Death's Judgement anyway so the drop in DPS is not that significant nor should it be since you can still do heavy damage regardless (at least 20k DJs with the build I use). 

As for specter, I crunched some numbers on the last beta and posted them in other threads to show how much of a non-issue the nerf was. Since Consume Shadows healing depends on remaining shroud HP and shroud HP caps 150% of your max HP, all you had to do was add half your max to know what your biggest heal was. For me, I had 22,960 HP and so my shroud would have capped at a little over 34k so my heal would give me 34k and an extra 20% from Dark Sentry to others, boosting it to over 40k. With the nerf, the healing effectiveness gets halved + drain. Half of 150% is 75% and drain would drop the effectiveness to around 70% so my ~23k would produce a heal of 16k for me and close to 20k for everyone else.

Now with the build I am planning on using/tweaking (plus wells, TD and consume), the idea is to quickly build up force using siphon, sword 2 and wells. Traversing Dusk gives 5% force per shadowstep and then an extra 1% per ally you heal up to a maximum of 10%. Sword 2 will also give me additional force for using initiative. Then there is Siphon which gives me 25% force when used on an enemy. Right off the bat, I start with 25% force and then through close range infiltrator's strikes and well spam on top of the stack, quickly gain max force ready to burst heal. Doing so with TD, I have already aoe healed around 5k while providing alacrity. With my max force being 28,841 my absolute best heal would be a little over 13k, 16k outgoing. By the time I am ready to start again I should have enough initiative for more sword2s, another well or two off CD from improv and then shroud should be off CD by the time I refill force. All this healing will be pure aoe.

This is why I am not sweating the nerf at all.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't know... I happen to quite like the Deadeye.  I see them everywhere in WvW, so it isn't correct to say that the spec nor the rifle are unused.  A Deadeye is my default overworld toon, and this isn't just because I like the theme and playstyle.  The spec is pretty easy to play one-handed, I kill most enemies before they reach me, It lets me squeeze in and out of places with ample stealth access, it is good at self buffing and damage while solo, and the rifle's ability to both spam immobilize and erect a nearly endless projectile barrier is extremely useful when I'm by myself.  Deadeye isn't limited only to rifle play, either.  I use a D/P setup to warp from enemy to enemy, cutting them down under permanent quickness.  Something else I discovered relatively recently is the combination of of Mercy and Maleficent Seven lets me spam Headshot up to 12 times in a row (sans one marking).  That's 2400 defiance bar damage, which I have been using to solo Aestus and Ignis.  

 

...Oh wait, this is a Specter thread, isn't it? 

 

------------------------

 

I'm not surprised about these changes.  Endless Night and Consume Shadows felt... off.  It seemed counterintuitive for Anet to design the spec so the best way to handle Shadow Shroud was to forgo it entirely.  All of the skills in Shroud are currently low damaging and slow to use, but a general rule of thumb when it comes to design is that something is designed to be used.  Same thing with Endless Night.  When used perfectly it produced an insane amount of damage, quickness, and support, but doing such was, without a doubt, too hard of a rotation to actually try and pull off.  Yet, the big numbers it would inflict were creating an immense social pressure to try and get Specters to try such a rotation.  I'm not sure how you could balance anything on this spec when Endless Night dousing the entire team with quickness and absurd amounts of Rot Wallow was an available option.

Playing Specter still seems like it will be maddening, though.  Dark Sentry now officially having no cooldown means that auto attacking an enemy will always be less damage than auto-attacking an ally... yet Endless Night is still the best DPS option overall.  This would mean that the highest DPS way to play the spec is to spam 3 on an enemy until you run out of initiative, and then begin swapping targets between enemy and ally over and over again depending on whether you auto attack or have enough initiative for Endless Night.  Shadowsquall doesn't grant barrier, so for stealth attacks you'll also have to re-target an enemy.  The wells are still weird, and exist mostly as a vehicle for alacrity.  Measured Shot still forces movement, which makes it dangerous to use in hazard-heavy zones.

 

All in all, it seems more like Anet wanted to fix what they thought was wrong with Specter more than they were following up on feedback.  

[Tails.9372]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Endless Night and Consume Shadows felt... off.  It seemed counterintuitive for Anet to design the spec so the best way to handle Shadow Shroud was to forgo it entirely.

But that's not Consume Shadows fault, at all. They stated multiple times that Shadow Shroud was supposed to be used for offensive purposes so the alternative for a support build is just to not use it at all and even for offensive builds it's noticeably underperforming when compared to scepter.

Them going after Consume Shadows just shows that they don't understand the actual issue here. The goal for rn should have been to bring Shadow Shroud and some of the lackluster traits up to par and if that wouldn't have changed the situation then it would have been appropriate to go after Consume Shadows.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

3 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

But that's not Consume Shadows fault, at all. They stated multiple times that Shadow Shroud was supposed to be used for offensive purposes so the alternative for a support build is just to not use it at all and even for offensive builds it's noticeably underperforming when compared to scepter.

Them going after Consume Shadows just shows that they don't understand the actual issue here. The goal for rn should have been to bring Shadow Shroud and some of the lackluster traits up to par and if that wouldn't have changed the situation then it would have been appropriate to go after Consume Shadows.

Thinking on it, I really think they should have made the Shadow Shroud moves work like Scepter. If you're siphoned to an enemy, all the skills do more damage with little support. If you're siphoned to an ally, the skills do more support with little damage. Equalize it so Shroud is something you want to use, but it comes with the downside of being locked out of your slot skills.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

3 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

But that's not Consume Shadows fault, at all. They stated multiple times that Shadow Shroud was supposed to be used for offensive purposes so the alternative for a support build is just to not use it at all and even for offensive builds it's noticeably underperforming when compared to scepter.

Them going after Consume Shadows just shows that they don't understand the actual issue here. The goal for rn should have been to bring Shadow Shroud and some of the lackluster traits up to par and if that wouldn't have changed the situation then it would have been appropriate to go after Consume Shadows.

But the only reason people were popping in and out of shroud without using any skills was because of Consume Shadows, so it very much is the traits fault.  Mechanically, Shroud is a hybrid that both does damage and supports an ally at the exact same time, so I'd like a link that says Shroud is supposed to be used only for offensive purposes.  

[RyuDragnier.9476]

16 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

But the only reason people were popping in and out of shroud without using any skills was because of Consume Shadows, so it very much is the traits fault.  Mechanically, Shroud is a hybrid that both does damage and supports an ally at the exact same time, so I'd like a link that says Shroud is supposed to be used only for offensive purposes.  

No, it wasn't the trait's fault. It was Shroud's fault. I personally used Consume Shadows without staying in Shroud simply because Shroud was worthless for a Support spec, it did less than Scepter. Specter has better support than Shroud, and that's a design flaw with Shroud, not Consume Shadows. Even with the current change, I will not stay in Shroud when I could just sit out of it and do more healing and support with Scepter and Wells.

Edited November 26, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

But the only reason people were popping in and out of shroud without using any skills was because of Consume Shadows, so it very much is the traits fault.

On pure support builds which had no reason to stay in shroud to begin with as the main bulk of specters support kit is outside in scepter and the wells so for them it was always either blowing it up for Consume Shadows (and some initiative from Quick Pockets) or just ignoring it regardless.

Damage builds on the other hand used it that way because they had no reason not to. Both Second Opinion and Shallow Grave had nothing substantial to offer for them and staying in Shroud would just be a DPS loss vs. scepter. At best people would go in, use one or two skills and go out of it right after so no, people weren't using it that way "because of Consume Shadows" they just used Consume Shadows to augment what they were already doing to begin with (if they even bothered at all).

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Mechanically, Shroud is a hybrid that both does damage and supports an ally at the exact same time, so I'd like a link that says Shroud is supposed to be used only for offensive purposes.  

From the dev. interview with MT:

"I think we always wanted the damage build to be viable because I mean its still a thief and trying to capture the identitiy of thief into the support character as well which was still there I mean look at the shroud kit where it is I still have these agressive abilies"

They also said during their e-spec introduction stream that they gave shroud "more agressive skills" so it can retain the more offensive playstyle thief is known for so their rhetoric in this regard is pretty consistent.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Fizz.9384]

Yeah, the shroud skills just didn't feel good during the last beta. They felt weak compared to scepter. None of the skills feel impactful like Reaper's shroud 4. Specter's shroud 5 is clunky to use for stability or cc because of the long channel it has. If they want us to spend time in shroud, make shroud skills worth using. I also strongly feel like there should be a trait that changes the single target healing and barrier to AoE with lesser effect to allow more variety in gameplay.

[Zacchary.6183]

So nobody is going to touch on my math? I see how it is.

[Kain.2310]

2 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

So nobody is going to touch on my math? I see how it is.

idk if you heard this before but Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Kain.2310

[TwiceDead.1963]

9 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

So nobody is going to touch on my math? I see how it is.

Because it's just not impressive. You are proud of jumping hoops to do what? Provide alacrity and do terrible HP/s? You are certainly not doing damage, who are you trying to convince here? Drop a healer for your heals? Drop a DPS for your damage?

Not even touching Quickbrand, in the time you have unleashed your burst-heal, Scrapper has done equal or likely more of your healing numbers and provided protection, quickness, regen, might, swiftness, vigor, stability, varying combo-fields, superspeed, projectile denial and can even revive multiple people simultaneously should that be necessary. You are certainly not taking THAT spot. They can even reliably tank with high toughness.

In the time you have spent providing Alacrity, and building Life-force, Renegade has pressed one button and outshined you massively in both the Alacrity Generation and the Damage department.

Meanwhile you are busy spamming wells that do nothing for damage, nothing for boon-refreshing (everybody already has every boon so there's nothing to add), do nothing for condition application (the boss already has every condition conceivable), ALL to keep up Alacrity. When you are not doing that you are spamming infiltrators strike for healing and life-force to eventually release a burst-heal that is your ONE saving grace in this circumstance.