Beta 4 Elite Specialization Specter Balance Notes (11/24/21)

[AikijinX.6258]

Thief - Specter

We saw a lot of eagerness for the addition of a support specialization to the Thief. Beta 3 generated a lot of excellent buildcraft and discussion, and we've begun tuning the Specter for an appropriate debut in End of Dragons.

Key pieces of feedback that we identified were:

1) Consume Shadows was causing Shadow Shroud to feel like something you should enter, and then immediately exit, to get Consume Shadows' healing effect as quickly as possible. This diminished the utility and fun of the Shroud skills themselves, as it was a strong reason to never use them.

Specific changes made in response to this feedback: The maximum potential healing and barrier from Consume Shadows will now grow stronger for every second you are in Shroud, up to 5 seconds. In Shadow Shroud itself, the skill Dawn's Repose has been changed from a dash into a ground-targeted leap, to make it easier to target a specific location, and is now a leap finisher.

2) Endless Night, by affecting three targets, was creating expected gameplay of manually selecting and 'rotating' between different targets in a group, in order to sustain quickness on multiple targets. This isn't very fun to do.

Specific changes made in response to this feedback: We'd rather not have Specter able to strongly cover both Alacrity and Quickness for groups, and so have decided to focus on the Alacrity aspect. Endless Night has been adjusted to only target one ally. This may maintain a strong all-around support role for a focused target in certain gameplay, such as 2v2 PvP or playing with a friend in the open world, while allowing Specter to still fill healing and alacrity support roles for group play.

Full List of Specter changes:

Siphon:

• Using this skill will now stop auto-attacking, to better accommodate for traits like Hidden Thief that grant stealth.

Scepter:

• Triple Bolt: Fixed a bug that caused this ability to be queued twice.
• Shadow Sap: Fixed the skill fact for barrier application
• Endless Night: The number of targets this ability affects has been reduced from 3 to 1. Slow and Quickness application has been reduced from 2 to 1.5 seconds. Fixed a bug that caused the targeted ally to not be affected when attempting to fire through multiple allies.

Shroud:

• Leaving Shadow Shroud now sets the Shadow Shroud ability on full cooldown.
• Dawn's Repose: This ability is now a ground-targeted ability instead of a ground-targeted dash. Range has been reduced from 600 to 450, with the affected radius being reduced from 240 to 180 and Fear being reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5. This ability is now a leap finisher.
• Eternal Night: Updated VFX slightly. Reduced aftercast.

Traits:

• Shadestep: Broken barrier will now be distributed evenly among allies affected.
• Consume Shadows: This trait has been reworked and the maximum healing potential reduced in PvE. Activating Shadow Shroud now grants a stack of Consume Shadows, and the specter will gain a stack of Consume Shadows every second while in shroud, up to 5 stacks. When you exit Shadow Shroud, your Shadow Force is consumed, and for each stack of Consume Shadows that you have, 10% of the consumed Shadow Force is converted into healing for nearby allies. Healing past the target's maximum health will be granted as barrier.

Bug Fixes:

• Lead Attacks: No longer reduces the cooldown of Shadow Shroud.
• Siphon:  No longer requires a pathing check in order to execute.
• Twilight Combo: The second attack of this ability is no longer jump-cancellable. 
• Haunt Shot: Removed the odd smoke bomb that appeared at the specter's feet. Updated the ability to fire from the character's hand instead of head.
• Swindler's Equilibrium: Now properly recharges Siphon.
• Assassin's Reward: Now functions correctly with Scepter abilities.
• Hidden Thief: Stealth now activates much quicker when using Siphon.

Edited November 24, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[Zacchary.6183]

Did they mention how reduced the healing was on Consume Shadows? Shroud can get a maximum of 150% force (HP) and it isn't hard to get 22k so a big hit shouldn't be that bad.

[Tails.9372]

So the no ICD on stack application for Rot Wallow Venom from Dark Sentry has not been considered a bug then. Either way Endless Night is only single target now so it shouldn't be an issue anymore.

[saerni.2584]

Will be interesting to play with these changes and then Anet can iterate going into release of EoD.

 

Specter list feels a bit short but also was in most recent batch of testing so these are the changes they were able to test/implement for the upcoming beta. Looks promising.

[Malkarne.8167]

"Endless Night: The number of targets this ability affects has been reduced from 3 to 1."

 

Reducing the number of targets from 3 to 1 on Endless Night is devastatingly bad. You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater by changing it like that. I played a ton of Specter during the beta and even made a big post on it in this thread, so suffice to say I had a good amount of experience with the spec. A lot of the enjoyment with Scepter came from lining up that beam to splash on targets, both friendly and enemies. It played beautifully with Specter's emphasis on shadowstepping and positioning, and moving around to land cleave like that felt very fun and unique.

 

Please, please revert that change. I'm begging you. Maybe make it so only the target gets the Quickness/Slow but the two cleave targets only get barrier/torment with damage? At least then you'd still be able to provide barrier and have some cleave and it would also resolve your concerns about Specter providing too much Quickness to a group along with Alacrity. Just don't burn the whole functionality of Endless Night to the ground. 😞

 

I posted this in the main thread but it really should be emphasized how terrible this change is.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Looks good so far. I'd echo what the above post said about Endless Night being more interesting with 3 targets instead of 1, but it is a single target healer so I can't complain about the skill being single target lol. 

[kash.9213]

I actually liked the dash aspect of the shroud skill and I hope that change should make it less of a gamble with your life to use. A ground target shows the foot print to it's easier to pick a landing spot quickly under pressure. 

[Doggie.3184]

30 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

Will be interesting to play with these changes and then Anet can iterate going into release of EoD.

 

Specter list feels a bit short but also was in most recent batch of testing so these are the changes they were able to test/implement for the upcoming beta. Looks promising.

Pretty much all balance patches have Thief as the shortest list of notes so I'm not surprised. But it seems liek they're not ready to ditch anything yet and want to give it a second chance before abandoning any concepts like they did ranger and ele.

I'm glad I got the ground target Dawn's Repose I wanted at least cuz that skill was honestly really annoying XD and the Siphon bug fix was a gamebreaking must-have.

[BobbyT.7192]

Oh look.... nerfs, not surprised.

Spectre maintaining good positioning to get the most out of endless night is what should be encouraged, not removed. Disappointing.

No mention of shallow grave (the 300 trait), why design a skill like that in the first place?

As for consumed shadows. If i understand if right, at max stacks (after 5s) its 50% of shroud turned to healing? Where as before it was 100%?

Edited November 24, 2021 by BobbyT.7192

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

As for consumed shadows. At max stacks (after 5s) its 50% of shroud turning healing? Where as before it was 100%?

yes

[Nomad.4301]

It shocks me how they managed to ignore almost ALL the feedback that was given and instead elected to nerf specter's multi-target healing capabilities even MORE 🤣

The reason why people were leaving shroud immediately with Consume Shadows was because shroud skills suck, there is literally no reason to be in shroud longer than you absolutely need to be because the damage and utility of it is non-existent and the healing is limited to a single target, thus everyone just burned the "shadow force" for a large AoE heal since the spec lacked any meaningful AoE healing, which they also made worse (why?). In addition making Endless Night only affect 1 person is also going to cut the specter's DPS output to 1/3rd of what it was since now you're getting 66% less stacks of rot wallow venom.

Also limiting the healing/quickness output to a single target is just going to force you to play favorites with party members even MORE. At this point the better option would be to apply the quickness to the thief instead of your target because at least then you will have quickness to help you heal everyone individually since that's apparently all they ever want you to do because according to this line: "This may maintain a strong all-around support role for a focused target in certain gameplay, such as 2v2 PvP or playing with a friend in the open world.." all specter is meant to be used for is open world and 2v2's which no-one really takes seriously anyways 😂.

PLEASE let this not be the last of the changes as this leaves me with basically no confidence that they even play their own class.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Nomad.4301

[Infusion.7149]

Quote

Endless Night has been adjusted to only target one ally. This may maintain a strong all-around support role for a focused target in certain gameplay, such as 2v2 PvP or playing with a friend in the open world, while allowing Specter to still fill healing and alacrity support roles for group play.

Key takeaway is it won't be a quickness support

Seems consume shadows had a massive change in that staying in shroud is actually useful:
 

Quote

Consume Shadows: This trait has been reworked and the maximum healing potential reduced in PvE. Activating Shadow Shroud now grants a stack of Consume Shadows, and the specter will gain a stack of Consume Shadows every second while in shroud, up to 5 stacks. When you exit Shadow Shroud, your Shadow Force is consumed, and for each stack of Consume Shadows that you have, 10% of the consumed Shadow Force is converted into healing for nearby allies. Healing past the target's maximum health will be granted as barrier.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Nomad.4301]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Seems consume shadows had a massive change in that staying in shroud is actually useful

it's actually 50% weaker than it was before (used to be 100% of consumed SF was converted to healing instantly) now you have to wait 5 seconds for half the effect, problem is even spending 1 second in shroud is a waste of time unless you're using it to absorb a few hits.

[Burial.1958]

Will be a dead Spec at RLS. 

[Tails.9372]

When I saw "QoL" changes on the card I really hoped that they decided to remove the forced shadow step on Measured Shot.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

1 hour ago, Malkarne.8167 said:

"Endless Night: The number of targets this ability affects has been reduced from 3 to 1."

 

Reducing the number of targets from 3 to 1 on Endless Night is devastatingly bad. You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater by changing it like that. I played a ton of Specter during the beta and even made a big post on it in this thread, so suffice to say I had a good amount of experience with the spec. A lot of the enjoyment with Scepter came from lining up that beam to splash on targets, both friendly and enemies. It played beautifully with Specter's emphasis on shadowstepping and positioning, and moving around to land cleave like that felt very fun and unique.

 

Please, please revert that change. I'm begging you. Maybe make it so only the target gets the Quickness/Slow but the two cleave targets only get barrier/torment with damage? At least then you'd still be able to provide barrier and have some cleave and it would also resolve your concerns about Specter providing too much Quickness to a group along with Alacrity. Just don't burn the whole functionality of Endless Night to the ground. 😞

 

I posted this in the main thread but it really should be emphasized how terrible this change is.

Agree 100% shroud is trash and now we can’t even just use it as a heal. This is the one spec I bought the game for…

I was going to try harbinger too but that got shafted too with the removal of blight heal

[BobbyT.7192]

12 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Will be a dead Spec at RLS. 

Almost everyone wanted a support spec, and this is what they get... a gimmick.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

wait. that's it?

 

2 nerfs, bugfixes and (at least) one redesigned shroud skill.

Not even a single self-apply tool for RWV? 

Best way to play this spec, will be using it as a healbot following your main

 

 

[AikijinX.6258]

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Siphon:  No longer requires a pathing check in order to execute.

Godly Change

 

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Twilight Combo: The second attack of this ability is no longer jump-cancellable. 

Imagine making a fix for Twilight Combo and it NOT being for a velocity increase on the 1st projectile.

 

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

• Swindler's Equilibrium: Now properly recharges Siphon.
• Assassin's Reward: Now functions correctly with Scepter abilities.
• Hidden Thief: Stealth now activates much quicker when using Siphon.

They at least listened to the Thief feedback at least with this one

 

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Dawn's Repose: This ability is now a ground-targeted ability instead of a ground-targeted dash. Range has been reduced from 600 to 450, with the affected radius being reduced from 240 to 180 and Fear being reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5. This ability is now a leap finisher.

Pretty ok change. I hated the randomness of the dash. I still don't understand why on EARTH we got a nerf to the fear. And later down the line it'll be from 1.5 down to 1s (Mark my words). It's absolutely insane all these arbitrary and uncalled for nerfs. I do like the Leap finisher though. I wonder what the animation will be like. Heartseeker, vault, or rocketboot. 

 

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Using this skill will now stop auto-attacking, to better accommodate for traits like Hidden Thief that grant stealth.

Nice

 

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Triple Bolt: Fixed a bug that caused this ability to be queued twice.

Good

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Will be a dead Spec at RLS. 

Plenty of people said this about Deadeye.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Plenty of people said this about Deadeye.

How many DEs do you see these days? Legitimate question here. I mostly see Daredevils and base spec Thieves everywhere, I don't remember the last time I saw a Deadeye in open world content.

Edited November 25, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476

[Zacchary.6183]

4 minutes ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

How many DEs do you see these days? Legitimate question here. I mostly see Daredevils and base spec Thieves everywhere, I don't remember the last time I saw a Deadeye in open world content.

There isn't an event I don't see at least one Deadeye other than myself. And there are still thieves who bring Deadeye into WvW. Idk about PvP but Deadeye is used quite a bit.

[Vidit.7108]

I realize that Arena Net had bigger fires to put out with the other elite specs. In some ways Specter had the least work they needed to do on it. 

That said it feels like they ignored what were central complaints people had in the feedback forum. I don't say this because I feel I was ignored, there were a lot of people that complained specifically about ally targeting and underwhelming shroud skills. I think that healer support builds as a result of the consume shadows changes will mostly ignore shroud except to fit in some extra dps. 

As for endless night, they should have dropped the quickness or made the wells quickness, or made endless night provide alacrity instead of quickness. Changing the number of targets is bad more for the barrier application it could provide a group with.

I kind of expect these changes to mostly kill off single target and 5-person healer specter, people will opt more for the condi boon support. Healing is a hard space to compete in and these changes seem like they might make it harder to justify using the Specter to heal. No added stability or changes to Well of Bounty boon priority with just good and not great barrier application, it's not enough to stand out.

It can possibly compete with heal scourge in squad comps (if they got rid of ten-person alac), as condi-boon support it might still have a solid place in fractals

Edited November 25, 2021 by Vidit.7108
typo

[Burial.1958]

8 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Plenty of people said this about Deadeye.

 DE was a dead spec at RLS. Nobody really play it then seriously. DE is a Meme. 

[Doggie.3184]

9 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Plenty of people said this about Deadeye.

Uh, they were right though. I consider it the worst spec in the entire game (if they dont fix catalyst) and the Rifle is still a copypasta'd P/P after they nerfed P/P for it. I gave up on it long ago and never use it since Anet have no interest in it. They said it themselves it was underused compared to everything else and then addressed none of the reasons why with balance patch that stated such.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Doggie.3184