Virtuoso Needs Off-hand Dagger

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again it was never about the e-spec its the WHOLE picture adding on the the e-spec.

The balance changes made in the February patch, SPvP bots and hackers, SPvP removing trinkets instead of actual balancing, Alliance only NOW being worked on even tho this was announced YEARS ago. This is the Mesmer part of the forum thread ofc its only focusing on Mesmer but across ALL the classes people have been talking about the balances around each of the classes. ALL of this is a collection of issues, Virtuoso is just the new hot topic of said problems. 

 

OK maybe ... I'm not here to talk about ALL the things that you think are affecting game health and nothing I said should have given you that impression. That's not the topic of the thread. 

OH dagger isn't solving a problem, it doesn't appear to be part of the spec concept. Those are two reasons I don't see it happening. If there IS a problem to be solved with Virtuoso, the BEST place to do that is within the things we know it will be getting. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK maybe ... I'm not here to talk about ALL the things that you think are affecting game health and nothing I said should have given you that impression. That's not the topic of the thread.

So congrats on trying to get back to the topic at hand because in every discussion you always put the its not the dev's vision crap to players maybe viable suggestions.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So congrats on trying to get back to the topic at hand because in every discussion you always put the its not the dev's vision crap to players maybe viable suggestions.

Like I said .. being viable simply isn't enough. It's not hard to consider the concept of the spec when making suggestions. OH dagger isn't part of that concept for Virtuoso and other than trying to change the concept, the reasons presented to add it don't really fit. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Like I said .. being viable simply isn't enough. It's not hard to consider the concept of the spec when making suggestions. OH dagger isn't part of that concept for Virtuoso and other than trying to change the concept, the reasons presented to add it don't really fit. 

Actually no it fits really well that Virtuoso should have 2 daggers I dont know what your argument is that it wouldnt. Considering it already has one dagger in the mainhand having both should not ruin the whole concept of the class. In fact it would fit the class theme even more with more blades dual wielding daggers with 5 flying daggers on top of you. As well as giving more options to mainhand offhand combinations to master like the name Virtuoso.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Actually no it fits really well that Virtuoso should have 2 daggers I dont know what your argument is that it wouldnt.

Simple: What 'fits' isn't based on what players determine. It's based on what Anet decides the concept is. If Anet thought OH dagger fit the concept, we would get it. This isn't a vote. It's not design-by-democracy here. 

You seem to have a hard time accepting the customer-service provider relationship here. The players don't set the menu. Just because you don't like some new entries to the menu doesn't mean Anet doesn't know how to cook. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Simple: What 'fits' isn't based on what players determine. It's based on what Anet decides the concept is. If Anet thought OH dagger fit the concept, we would get it. 

You seem to have a hard time accepting the customer-service provider relationship here. 

You seem to have a hard time that ANET creates a product for the consumer, so in a relationship of consumer to provider relationship its the consumer that has the power not the provider. Again not asking for the provider to heed every single call of the consumer but meeting a middle ground is a thing. 

If the provider creates a product that is bad and the consumers are having issues with it, then clearly the product itself is bad. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. Its not a few people asking for this MANY players have asked for offhand dagger since the release of the Virtuoso spec. 

Considering this is forums players have the rights to fantasize about having 2 daggers considering the almighty ANET and their bountiful wisdom knows how to filter the forum for balance changes there is no harm in throwing suggesting in hoping one might catch ANET's eye.

I mean because they have such a strong competitive presence in E-Sports I'm sure they know what they are doing.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

You seem to have a hard time that ANET creates a product for the consumer, so in a relationship of consumer to provider relationship its the consumer that has the power not the provider. Again not asking for the provider to heed every single call of the consumer but meeting a middle ground is a thing. 

If the provider creates a product that is bad and the consumers are having issues with it, then clearly the product itself is bad. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. Its not a few people asking for this MANY players have asked for offhand dagger since the release of the Virtuoso spec. 

Considering this is forums players have the rights to fantasize about having 2 daggers considering the almighty ANET and their bountiful wisdom knows how to filter the forum for balance changes there is no harm in throwing suggesting in hoping one might catch ANET's eye.

Not at all .. I understand it perfectly. Anet can't cater to individuals. Some people not liking a menu entry isn't a reason for Anet to change it. We know Anet will change it IF it doesn't meet whatever their criteria is (they do it all the time) ... but be assured, they STILL control what is on that menu. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anduriell.6280]

Not a cool response @Tseison.4659.

now to the topic at hand, the only class to get dual weapons is warrior. No other class gets that, just deal with it. There is already plenty of saltiness in the Mesmer subforums.

Although extra mobility is always nice that will not make Virtuoso to become magically wanted or fun . I personally felt the virtuoso to be designed like a ranged nuke closer to an EOD soulbeast if I may. So learning from experience mobility doesn’t make it better or wanted.

I would ask virtuoso to bring something for the team/squad. Without it the elite does feels hollow. It would be nice to see the opportunity of a Mesmer build to have a legitimate spot in WvW or pvp as team player (aside from a veil bot)

 what about bladesongs to also bring team buffs additionally to current effects. For example: Bladesong Requiem to apply illusion of life to friendlies around the virtuoso. And apply a longer block/illusion of life duration the more blades the virtuoso has.
What about Bladesong Harmony to small heal  to friendlies around the target by each blade hit.

bladesong sorrow apply boons to friendlies around the target. A different boon by each blade. And so on. It could be a GM trait so the virtuoso has to specialize on it as such not to nerf CD durations.

what about bladesong dissonance to additionally steal  up ( depending on the number of blades used) to 10 different boons  from the target if it hits. That would also solve the issue with ranged not being able to get boons in WvW. 

And as last suggestion: physic force additionally to be add the effect  to share the boons from the virtuoso into friendlies. The issue with SI was the low cooldown, big range and with the trait to impact 10 allies.

Physic Force to impact 5 allies, have the same boon durations as ranger shout We heal as one, and a range of 240 ( like soulbeast stance share) and a CD of 45s will make the skill impactful but not as much as SI was in its moment.

that could be very fun and I think it would open virtuoso To be requested in squads/parties while at the same time keeping the ranged nuke design.

[mungozen.2379]

25 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

It's best to ignore him.  He's been a forum troll since day one and is a contrarian to everything anyone writes.  He devalues conversations as you can see with his responses in this topic.

They were advocating to resolve Virtuoso Issues within the context of the tools (weapons, utilities and traits) they already have.  Adding 'more' doesn't fix issues, it simply redirects from them.

Is Virtuoso Dagger a good weapon?  I do not think so, and would suggest that giving MH Dagger a review and update would be better than adding OH Dagger.  Or update MH and add OH, but updating MH Dagger first seems prudent before adding more weapon skills. 

As I pointed out in my prior post, Virtuoso Dagger is significantly different from every other Professions Dagger.  I didn't enjoy using it as a weapon over other choices (Scepter and Sword) and didn't feel it provided any interesting playstyle.  If Dagger offered something that Scepter and Sword did not that was actually more engaging or efficient, it might make for some more interesting build choices.

If the consensus is that MH Dagger is awesome and does a bunch for things that Virtuoso needs that no one wants to sacrifice, and there is no room within the Virtuoso Traits and Utilities to add what Virt needs, then perhaps an OH Dagger would make sense.  But does anyone think MH Dagger for Virt is the best weapon ever?  Let alone a good option?

[phokus.8934]

34 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

They were advocating to resolve Virtuoso Issues within the context of the tools (weapons, utilities and traits) they already have.  Adding 'more' doesn't fix issues, it simply redirects from them.

Is Virtuoso Dagger a good weapon?  I do not think so, and would suggest that giving MH Dagger a review and update would be better than adding OH Dagger.  Or update MH and add OH, but updating MH Dagger first seems prudent before adding more weapon skills. 

As I pointed out in my prior post, Virtuoso Dagger is significantly different from every other Professions Dagger.  I didn't enjoy using it as a weapon over other choices (Scepter and Sword) and didn't feel it provided any interesting playstyle.  If Dagger offered something that Scepter and Sword did not that was actually more engaging or efficient, it might make for some more interesting build choices.

If the consensus is that MH Dagger is awesome and does a bunch for things that Virtuoso needs that no one wants to sacrifice, and there is no room within the Virtuoso Traits and Utilities to add what Virt needs, then perhaps an OH Dagger would make sense.  But does anyone think MH Dagger for Virt is the best weapon ever?  Let alone a good option?

Not sure how this relates to what I wrote.

[Forum Moderator.3074]

Hi, I would like to remind you all to please keep the conversation civil and avoid to use comments to make personal attacks or passive aggressive remarks against each other or else will be locking this thread.

[Jijimuge.4675]

To address the OP's initial suggestion - I don't agree that mesmer having received no 2-handed weapons for earlier specs means that it "deserves" an off-hand dagger.

I certainly wouldn't mind getting an off-hand dagger - getting more toys is usually fun, and opens up more options, so I wouldn't say no if it's offered.

There could very well be balance related reasons for needing a new off-hand weapon for virtuoso, but the question is perhaps better addressed from the other end.  Thus, instead of assuming that a new off-hand weapon is the answer, perhaps first decide what the question is. i.e.what does virtuoso lack that it currently needs, and would an off-hand dagger be the best (or even possible) way to address those needs?

One needs to bear in mind that, if Anet did give an off-hand dagger to virtuoso, a constraint in design would be that one of the skills would be a phantasm (assuming that Anet want to remain consistent in their approach to phantasms).

IMO, if one wanted to convince Anet that off-hand dagger is needed, a good way to do so would be to show that Virtuoso is lacking something and that off-hand dagger is at least a decent way of addressing that need.  As there'd be additional dev time related to new animations and more, they'd need at least some reason to do it that way rather than a simpler one (e.g. traits, numerical tweaks etc) if a simpler one is possible.

As far as aesthetics go (and speaking personally), I'd have preferred to have an off-hand dagger (even instead of main hand) - the aesthetic of the classic sword MH/daggerOH combo appeals to me (though one can of course still go dagger MH/ sword OH)

[anduriell.6280]

12 hours ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

perhaps first decide what the question is. i.e.what does virtuoso lack that it currently needs, and would an off-hand dagger be the best (or even possible) way to address those needs?

IMO, if one wanted to convince Anet that off-hand dagger is needed, a good way to do so would be to show that Virtuoso is lacking something and that off-hand dagger is at least a decent way of addressing that need. 

That is  a very good point and  I think it could be a good opportunity to ask ourselves that question.

I would go a bit further thou, i would ask: What is the Mesmer as a whole needs? What is the point to provide a elite which will offer "more of the same" but with new toys? 

Confusion is running rampant in this subforums... 🤣

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[mungozen.2379]

52 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

3. ANet hasn’t implemented OH dagger in the first place

4. OH dagger doesn’t solve problems the Virtuoso kit can’t solve

These two points are incredibly valid.  Just because some posters get stuck on what that means, doesn't mean that it is invalid for anyone to point it out.

That some posters generate a lot of conversation by being very determined to ensure their point is understood clearly, is also okay.  It is evident that some posters have spent a long time considering what the GW2 development environment can and does entail, and what the expected output of that should be.  

One can always decide to ignore posters if you do not think their claims are fair, valid or on topic.

This thread started with a request for an OH Dagger to, in part, offset what are perceived shortfalls in the Virtuoso kit.

Some posters have taken the stance that fixing the Virtuoso doesn't require adding more, but changing what they already have.  I would suggest that if Virtuoso doesn't get a change to its MH Dagger as it is today, it will still not be the best weapon choice, regardless of OH Dagger.  I actually wonder if getting OH Dagger instead of MH Dagger would be better, but no one is asking for less now are they.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[piitb.7635]

I only support offhand dagger because mesmer is literally the only class that has never had buttons 4 and 5 updated since the release of the game.

 

We're seriously using the same weapon skills from 8+ years ago in those 2 slots.  Every other class at least has had those changed up a but.

[Urphen.2857]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:00 AM, piitb.7635 said:

I only support offhand dagger because mesmer is literally the only class that has never had buttons 4 and 5 updated since the release of the game.

 

We're seriously using the same weapon skills from 8+ years ago in those 2 slots.  Every other class at least has had those changed up a but.

Chrono shield?

[piitb.7635]

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Chrono shield?

I really meant attacks.  Chrono is some utility defensive stuff.  

[Senqu.8054]

On 1/11/2022 at 6:58 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

These two points are incredibly valid.  Just because some posters get stuck on what that means, doesn't mean that it is invalid for anyone to point it out.

That some posters generate a lot of conversation by being very determined to ensure their point is understood clearly, is also okay.  It is evident that some posters have spent a long time considering what the GW2 development environment can and does entail, and what the expected output of that should be.  

One can always decide to ignore posters if you do not think their claims are fair, valid or on topic.

This thread started with a request for an OH Dagger to, in part, offset what are perceived shortfalls in the Virtuoso kit.

Some posters have taken the stance that fixing the Virtuoso doesn't require adding more, but changing what they already have.  I would suggest that if Virtuoso doesn't get a change to its MH Dagger as it is today, it will still not be the best weapon choice, regardless of OH Dagger.  I actually wonder if getting OH Dagger instead of MH Dagger would be better, but no one is asking for less now are they.

 

well yes and no. You could also argue that start wars the force awakens was loved by a good amount of people / is a well produced movie, but well… here we are with the last Jedi and Rise of a Skywalker…

Edited February 6, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

 

well yes and no. You could also argue that start wars the force awakens was loved by a good amount of people / is a well produced movie, but well… here we are with the last Jedi and Rise of a Skywalker…

Except the point being made isn't based on an opinion of being 'loved' or not. It's based on facts. The fact that OH dagger isn't necessary to solve Virtuoso problems  and that Anet didn't intend for Virtuoso concept to have an OH dagger are valid points when discussing if Virt should have an OH dagger to fix problems with it. 

Maybe that changes with EoD release ... but I'm going to bet it doesn't because it's probably more work than needs to be done to address whatever issues Anet might try to fix on the spec for EoD release.  

Edited February 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

We all know the loop here guys. 

We gotta wait 2 years of being trash before they'd consider changing virtuoso. Just pray to be as fortunate as scrapper and see some sorta gameplay in the expansion after EoD maybe. 

Oh wait. This is Anet on mesmer balancing

They'll delete both our dodges this time to make us accurate on the countdown of dodges and buff guardians. Isn't like they intended us to be more then just raid tanks anyway 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Senqu.8054]

22 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except the point being made isn't based on an opinion of being 'loved' or not. It's based on facts. The fact that OH dagger isn't necessary to solve Virtuoso problems  and that Anet didn't intend for Virtuoso concept to have an OH dagger are valid points when discussing if Virt should have an OH dagger to fix problems with it. 

Maybe that changes with EoD release ... but I'm going to bet it doesn't because it's probably more work than needs to be done to address whatever issues Anet might try to fix on the spec for EoD release.  

how is it always you who collects these smileys like it’s candy on Halloween. 

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

how is it always you who collects these smileys like it’s candy on Halloween. 

Lots of people just wanting to believe what they think instead of what is real. Believe whatever you like, but there are facts to support the idea Virtuoso doesn't get an OH dagger, contrary to the theme of the thread. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952