Anet needs to move away from Open World design and make new dungeons.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

 
From business perspective you want to grow your product - not just cater to the existing base.

Well, that's SOMEWHAT true. There are other ways to grow your business ... like improving revenues. We are talking about what share of GW2 needs to be instanced group content for the game to be sustainable. Seems to me that's a pretty low share. 

Again, you have assumed the game is doomed if it doesn't grow its market share with instanced group content. Nothing should lead you to conclude that's a necessary assumption for the game to be sustainable. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hume.2876]

 

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

8 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

That direct quote has NOTHING in it that says I don't want to see it revamped or improved like you are indicating I said. Try again.

 

Okay then why argue? We agree that the instanced content should be revamp and improved. That was my point.

I don't agree with the OP who wants to abandon OW content altogether.. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

 

Okay then why argue? We agree that the instanced content should be revamp and improved. That was my point.

I don't agree with the OP who wants to abandon OW content altogether.. 

Well, I don't think we do agree because I'm not agreeing instanced content should or shouldn't be revamped and improved; I don't have data to suggest EITHER thing. My point is that Anet should focus on content that is important to their business and ignore the false narratives of 'game failure' because of 'casual grinder mentality'. If people don't think Anet could make a business from the 'casual grinder' market ... I don't think those people are paying attention to the reality of the game. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hume.2876]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about what share of GW2 needs to be instanced group content for the game to be sustainable. Seems to me that's a pretty low share. 

Again, you have assumed the game is doomed if it doesn't grow its market share with instanced group content. Nothing should lead you to conclude that's a necessary assumption for the game to be sustainable. 

 

It's on the edge of right now.  That's why the last expansion took so long to be greenlighted. And that's what all the old pros came back.  They don't want to see their baby die.  

 

Is instanced content the only answer? No.  But it is a weak point of the game. And it's the strong point of most other games.  So it absolutely a great place to start to bring back more customers. 

 

Also - maybe they should do something about jewelcrafting LOl.  They seemed to fubar that one too. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

It's on the edge of right now.  That's why the last expansion took so long to be greenlighted. And that's what all the old pros came back.  They don't want to see their baby die.  

But you don't know that ... you continually say things that you have NO evidence for. That's the false narrative I'm talking about. You literally have NO idea if the last expansion 'took so long' to be greenlighted. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Hume.2876]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I don't think we do agree because I'm not agreeing instanced content should or shouldn't be revamped and improved; I don't have data to suggest EITHER thing. My point is that Anet should focus on content that is important to their business and ignore the false narratives of 'game failure' because of 'casual grinder mentality'. If people don't think Anet could make a business from the 'casual grinder' market ... I don't think those people are paying attention to the reality of the game. 

 

You think they just want to make a business.  I think they want to make a AAA MMO that is fun for all MMO players.  This is after all what they set out to do. The fact that their grinding content did the best wasn't some cunning secret business plan - its that they bled out the rest of their MMO players to other games.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Hume.2876 said:

 

You think they just want to make a business.  I think they want to make a AAA MMO that is fun for all MMO players.  This is after all what they set out to do. The fact that their grinding content did the best wasn't some cunning secret business plan - its that they bled out the rest of their MMO players to other games.

Well, you can think what you want ... I'm saying things based on what I can see are real. Clearly, you don't have a problem creating a reality to match what you think. 

[Hume.2876]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But you don't know that ... you continually say things that you have NO evidence for. That's the false narrative I'm talking about. YOu literally have NO idea if the last expansion 'took so long' to be greenlighted. 

You keep saying that.. But when GW2 first started my entire guild came over and I was in a massive WoW guild.  But then they switched over to SWTOR and have since moved to Final Fantasy XIV.  Many of us know actual real life people who have switch and we can actually ask them why..  

 

But hey you keep being you.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

41 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

You keep saying that.. But when GW2 first started my entire guild came over and I was in a massive WoW guild.  But then they switched over to SWTOR and have since moved to Final Fantasy XIV.  Many of us know actual real life people who have switch and we can actually ask them why..  

 

But hey you keep being you.  

I don't dispute your story ... but that's not indicative of whether that's true generally for the playerbase; people have reasons to leave and also come back ... and as normal, it seems you have ignored the latter to convince yourself your personal experience that people are leaving the game on a guild-scale is a valid generalization for the whole playerbase. 

Also ... that has nothing to do with how you DON'T know what 'took so long' for EoD to get greenlighted ... so you say things that you put forth as facts, I point out you don't know these things to be true, then you say a new thing as a fact that seems to have little relevance to the challenge made to the truth of the previous thing. Hence, we have a continuous line of statements from you that are questionable with me challenging their validity. Weird stuff. At this point, I'm just going to assume you will create whatever truths you want to justify whatever line of thinking you have. Yes, you keep being you indeed. 

The truth is that your limited personal experience should not lead you to make general conclusions about the game or its entire playerbase. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Luthan.5236]

I think there are some small mistakes. Yes other games with more instanced content are more successful. Doesn't mean GW2 automatically gets more successful by making more raids. They actually might lose players from the main target audience - if they shift their focus too other stuff too much (a bit is okay and I have meantioned that fractals are nice - group content where also casuals can easily get into it).

On the other side: Winning players from other games (that then play GW2 instead of the other game) - might be much harder than simply making a few new raids/dungeons. I mean: People can just stay with the other game. Unless GW2 offers something really unique. (And I don't think the combat system that unique anymore. Maybe back then in 2012.) So .. being a niche product can be successful. (Since like this ... the game has some USP - unique selling points - at least for the main target audience there there can be some stable amount of "fans" that will stay long term without needing too much special stuff. And buying some gems for the new skins sometimes.)

We also have the philosophy ot not creat a gear treadmill. Which lots of hardcore raiders from other games actually would like to see here. (Which is an absolute no go for ArenaNet - something the main target audience absolutely dislikes.)

Server costs ... should be not that expensive. The thing is more about profits and stuff like ROI (return on investment). You can still make profits ... but some generic gear treadmill game with endless instanced content might make more profi.

Main money here comes from skins I guess. From casuals that actually buy gems to buy skins from gem store. (Instead of trading gems for gold.) + selling the expansions (not possible to buy them with gems). Once the game reaches a stable finale state it should be possible to still at least earn the server cost by the remaining players and some new players that still have to catch up on older stuff - wo might buy utility things (shared inventory slots, bank tab expansion) with gems bought for real money.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Hume.2876]

5 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I think there are some small mistakes. Yes other games with more instanced content are more successful. Doesn't mean GW2 automatically gets more successful by making more raids. They actually might lose players from the main target audience - if they shift their focus too other stuff too much (a bit is okay and I have meantioned that fractals are nice - group content where also casuals can easily get into it).

 

 

It's not so much that raids make the game more successful. It's that tightly instanced content affords the game designers an easier time at making the game more fun.  

If we think broadly about all rpgs - the fun of the game comes from overcoming challenges.  This is a feeling of mastery - by picking the right build - knowing the right strategies - using the right gear - you can overcome a challenge that you previously could not.

People get very focused on the skinner box - the gear treadmill. But there is a reason why they tie this gear treadmill to harder content. It's because you will get a better feeling from overcoming those challenges. There is absolutely nothing stopping even a gear treadmill game from just dropping the gear from easy enemies with random chances.  The reason why they DO NOT do this is because it's not fun.

Now getting back to GW2 - have you ever wondered why they put in meta events for each zone? It's not just for the gear - they could drop that gear from any random mobs in the zone. But they put it in there because again that feeling of mastery that players get from teaming up and overcoming a bigger challenge. And it works. 

I think most of us can agree (again I don't have "HARD DATA" to "PROVE THIS") that its more fun to win a meta event then just gather resources - especially the first time you do.  Especially if that event is well designed. 

But Arenanet has a problem.  While these events have low barriers of entry (basically you won't have to find a group - gear your guy etc)  - they have limited reward. So while killing world boss will feel somewhat fun - eventually people will understand that if the x number of players - of any spec - hitting any buttons the boss will go down.

This is LESS FUN - then an instanced content - where if done well the player will feel quite a bit of satisfaction from overcoming a challenge where he or she was a critical part of the group and played an important role.  Done right - this player will feel a little bit like a hero. 

And the beauty is that this is repeatable to some extent - just like other PvE content you can get at least some of that feeling back when you defeat it again - when you take a different group of people in there and do it.  

This is what all MMORPGS are built on and this is WHY they tend to feature so much instanced content. This is why for example GW1 was almost entirely instanced and people loved it. Because they had almost no "gear reason" to grind the content. But the loved the feeling of mastery that they got from playing with different builds and different combos of players.  Everything in that game was instanced giving designers just amazing opportunities to carefully tune encounters to be challenging enough but not at all painful or abusive to their time.

I am not saying they need to do that here. What I am saying is part of a good MMO is instanced content - and the reason why is that it gives designers a good opportunity to carefully tune challenges. And good challenges encourage teamwork and mastery which is tons of FUN.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hume.2876

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Hume.2876 said:

 

It's not so much that raids make the game more successful. It's that tightly instanced content affords the game designers an easier time at making the game more fun.  

 

I stopped reading your post right here.  This statement is entirely subjective. 

I've been lurking through this thread and what it seems to me is that some people cannot understand not only how business works, but why.

[Obtena.7952]

There is no way ANYONE should be claiming they have objectively concluded what content more or less fun or rewarding for players. That's absurd because what is fun or rewarding is subjective. That's actually something Anet can and probably does measure to determine how to proceed with developing the game ... including decisions to stop developing content, like raids, as well.

But again, certainly people are still ignoring the idea that this is a business: The objective is to generate revenue. There is no SINGULAR way Anet MUST do that and certainly, no one should be trying to define what content is most 'fun' for people.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

It's not so much that raids make the game more successful. It's that tightly instanced content affords the game designers an easier time at making the game more fun.  

Replace "fun" with something like "balanced" or "finely tuned" and I'd agree with you. There are advantages to using an instance, since the environment is more controlled. But "fun" is far too subjective. I realize what you set out to say throughout the rest of your post is an attempt to establish what "fun" is, but that's fun for YOU. A huge premise of GW2 is attempting to offer a different avenue for "fun" outside the traditional MMO wheelhouse. They haven't always succeeded, but by and large ANet did a remarkable job of departing from many of the common gameplay tropes. Incidentally, the big one they struggle with (the classic trinity) is largely a problem that comes from them attempting to add more classic instanced content like raids. Go figure.

 

3 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

This is LESS FUN - then an instanced content - where if done well the player will feel quite a bit of satisfaction from overcoming a challenge where he or she was a critical part of the group and played an important role.  Done right - this player will feel a little bit like a hero. 

Dunno about this one. Yes, it's fairly safe to assume that feeling like you played a vital role in overcoming a collective challenge is gratifying, not going to challenge you there. But instanced content that rises to this level pretty much requires ANet to begin funneling people into various builds and roles. I see this as fundamentally antithetical to the build freedom designed into the game. Of course, the build 'freedom' here pales in comparison to what we had in GW1, but we still have a substantially higher amount of freedom to build as we please compared to GW2's peer titles.

Really the "done right" part is the issue. You've played SWTOR, so perhaps you remember the time when Flashpoints (for non-SWTOR players, those are that game's dungeon equivalents) were fairly unique and limited to classic trinity teams of 4. Over time they added various cheese mechanics (insanely powerful companions, healing terminals, etc) so a full group of 4 dps could just faceroll their way through them now. I'm not sure that kind of generic-ization is what this game should aspire to.

Also note that the genericization leaked outside of Flashpoints and into the core story of the game as well. For instance, I had a ton of fun taking inexperienced and underpowered teams through Flashpoints as an Agent/Scoundrel with group stealth and the right crafting skills, so we could sneak when needed, open optional shortcuts, stealth cc key mobs before a fight, etc. That's a much less viable method now, given how Flashpoints are now tuned. To make matters worse, with KoTFE and KoTET story missions, you couldn't stealth your way back out of a building after completing the objective. It's not that they added visible and avoidable detectors or anything. You could be full stealthed, but the normal enemies just straight up detect you and put you in combat. It destroys what makes those classes special, and forces everyone to just play like the dumbest mouthbreathing dps player ever. There's already enough echoes of this in the overall glass cannon meta for efficient builds, I don't see a point in formalizing it.

3 hours ago, Hume.2876 said:

I am not saying they need to do that here. What I am saying is part of a good MMO is instanced content - and the reason why is that it gives designers a good opportunity to carefully tune challenges. And good challenges encourage teamwork and mastery which is tons of FUN.

Again, teamwork and mastery is indeed fun. But again, ANet explicitly set out to make GW2 a game that doesn't need to do what all other "good MMO"s do. The numbers over time suggest that they have largely succeeded in this attempt. Few, if any, of the claims you made are flat-out illogical in my book, but they're also irrelevant. Yes, people like when MMOs do X thing. But ANet built this game to do Y thing instead, and it turns out people have liked that plenty.

Edited January 7, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Renegated.4132]

TBF yes, they should focus on the instanced content, Reason? The game based on the open world worked when the game was launched and had growing expectations, now it's a burden, for gods sake, just look the core game and the HoT/PoF expansion maps, unless ANet gives us a reason to go there, most of the time those maps are more dead than Zhaitan, and Zhaitan was dead by default, to the point where starting the meta can be agony due to not finding people to do it even if you rise up a tag.

 

They wanted to make a game based in the open world, yet the open world is mostly dead, they tried to make the game challenging by adding instanced content, we don't know why, they stopped doing it and then "Oh, noone plays it", no, it's not "Noone plays it", it's called burnout and I'm still feeling it even after 1 year of not touching the game, now they reduced the "challenging content" to just an instanced boss, the boss it's mostly a punchbag that can be nuked skipping most of the non-lethal mechanics.

 

I hope they've made good content when it comes to strikes, because if not, it will be a huge kick in the nuts for the game.

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

They wanted to make a game based in the open world, yet the open world is mostly dead,

 

On what do you base this claim?  I find open world maps to be quite populated.

[Renegated.4132]

On the base of needing +50 playes to do the meta event at a decent pace in most of the maps, the fact of being "populated" doesn't mean it has active players and, if they are active, they do not have to be doing specifically the meta, can be doing something else.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

TBF yes, they should focus on the instanced content, Reason? The game based on the open world worked when the game was launched and had growing expectations, now it's a burden, for gods sake, just look the core game and the HoT/PoF expansion maps, unless ANet gives us a reason to go there, most of the time those maps are more dead than Zhaitan, and Zhaitan was dead by default, to the point where starting the meta can be agony due to not finding people to do it even if you rise up a tag.

 

They wanted to make a game based in the open world, yet the open world is mostly dead, they tried to make the game challenging by adding instanced content, we don't know why, they stopped doing it and then "Oh, noone plays it", no, it's not "Noone plays it", it's called burnout and I'm still feeling it even after 1 year of not touching the game, now they reduced the "challenging content" to just an instanced boss, the boss it's mostly a punchbag that can be nuked skipping most of the non-lethal mechanics.

 

I hope they've made good content when it comes to strikes, because if not, it will be a huge kick in the nuts for the game.

These are just ancedotes. OW is certainly not mostly dead. I love the irony of a raider having burnout telling us Anet needs to focus on instanced content while people that play the game obviously satisfied with it are doing OW content all the time. 😆

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

These are just ancedotes. OW is certainly not mostly dead. 

 

¿How many reasons has given ANet to play on the current base game or keep visiting? Not even readapting the dungeons to the current times, the HoT maps have mostly only people that it's there because it has to get domains like the glider, or it's just afking waiting for the rest to complete the meta and recieve rewards for being there, and PoF probably is following the same destiny.

 

GW2's OW currently has this issue, it gives the player no reason to return once the objetives on that map are done, for example, every week add a booster to a map or 2-3 that gives you more chance to drop rare drops than the usual, or even add ascended drops to the events at a low rate in order to keep those maps alive, ANet is currently giving me no reason to return to Maguuma other than "cause yolo" or maybe getting some easy spec points for a new char, and the same goes for the base content, aside of the fractals, no reason to be there at all.

 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

¿How many reasons has given ANet to play on the current base game or keep visiting?

 

Actually ... there are a few, but it wouldn't matter if I told you what they were anyways would it? You've already decided you are right because it's obvious that OW content has little to offer you in the first place. Confirmed bias. 

What I know is that OW isn't dead like you are trying to say it just to 'prove' Anet should focus on OW content. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually ... there are a few, but it wouldn't matter if I told you what they were anyways would it? You've already decided you are right because it's obvious that OW content has little to offer you in the first place. Confirmed bias. 

What I know is that OW isn't dead like you are trying to say it just to 'prove' Anet should focus on OW content. 

 

Ok, enlighten me, what reason do I have to do, I don't know, the Ascalonian Catacombs to put an example?

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

Ok, enlighten me, what reason do I have to do, I don't know, the Ascalonian Catacombs to put an example?

I'm not being baited into a rhetorical discussion with someone who has an obvious case of confirmation bias.

If you are trying to indicate there aren't reasons for people to do AC, you are wrong.

People do OW content ALL the time. It is not dead. Don't pretend no one else does to justify this focus you think Anet should put on instanced content. If people weren't doing OW content to the degree you say, this game wouldn't exist. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

On the base of needing +50 playes to do the meta event at a decent pace in most of the maps, the fact of being "populated" doesn't mean it has active players and, if they are active, they do not have to be doing specifically the meta, can be doing something else.

That is certainly not my experience.  I see players on maps all of the time, meta events or not.  Sure, the population spikes during world boss trains, but overall I find plenty of players on open world maps.  I guess your mileage varies.  Confirmation bias doesn't make your point any more valid than mine.

[Renegated.4132]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not being baited into a rhetorical discussion here. You are wrong ... people do OW content ALL the time. It is not dead. Reasons for YOU to want to do AC do not come from me or anyone else. 

 

It's not a retorical discussion, it's being realistic, Anet has done mostly nothing for the veteran players to make the base game atractive, i don't know, instead of making the events of Jormag VS Primordus an instance event, make it a world event, and on the future, then swap it to an instance event and replace it with new events from the current timeline, some maps may have people, but it doesn't give you a reason to say "Let's fill this map and make the events" like for example, as I said, have a higher chance of drops.

 

When I say that people is not doing OW, i mean compared to when the content was released, yeah, you may find a party to do it, but maybe instead of being 50 + the ones who couldn't join to squad being full, you are 25 on the squad and maybe 6-7 randoms with the tag, the normal thing is giving the player a reason to do that content aside of  "I have nothing better to do".

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

It's not a retorical discussion, it's being realistic,

So it's realistic you can't think of a reason you might do AC? Then the problem isn't the game ... it's you. 

Again, OW content is not dead like you want people to believe, so no, you are wrong that this would be a reason for Anet to focus on instanced group content. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952