Revive Mesmers, Anet

[Moradorin.6217]

On 1/3/2022 at 3:49 PM, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You can certainly kill good players as a full dps mesmer.

That being said even he has to swap to condi mirage sometimes. So your point isn't 100% wrong. Ranger is easier to pull off at the moment than power mesmer.

Here is a video of shorts explaining why chrono over Mirage or core, in general, but example is power so wtf does this video you posted mean within this debate??

Shorts said, "Why Chronomancer over Core or Mirage. I think with Mirage having one dodge you lose too much you're too easy. People on a team fight can see you. You can use one dodge. Everyone turns on you. Distortion is good but it's lackluster. If you dont have distortion you die. If you do use distortion because your getting presured you can't use it offensively you don't do anything. Inspiration signets, great, however, when you play Mirage and inspiration you don't do damage. When you play inspiration and Chaos you dont do damage. When you play inspiration and/or chaos and any other combination of chronomancer or Mirage you dont do damage. So pretty much every build you have to have some combination of Dom, Dueling, and Illusions. You have to have two of the three. So for Chronomancer the descision for power was which two of the three do we want. So we took Domination because in my opinion domination is the best." (9/11/20)

 

Shorts_Gaming (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe9CyX6v4tsPl0nde0Mn43g/videos)

They deleted the video with shorts saying how 1 dodge is not enough and inspiration leaves you with no damage on mirage so he prefers chrono cause its stronger. I can only guess its to try and hide the fact.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

So I don't want to be pedantic. But there is a difference between "sucks" and "lackluster."
And he has dueled "leather classes" at the same level and won.

Yes mesmer needs some work. It is not a dumpster fire.

There are very few at the same level as shorts on mesmer especially on leather classes considering how much they are being carried by the leather classes itself. Playing good vs having a good class with a strong build is completely different. 

If shorts was fighting shorts one on mesmer other on a leather class i can very well say shorts on leather class will win.

You are also forgetting the lack of knowledge people have fighting against mesmers vs someone like shorts who have to know how each class works in order for mesmers to excel and outplay. Again shorts is not a benchmark for the class.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Exactly. thing is mesmer was NEVER advertised as an easy to play class. Classes that are dominating the meta right now such as necro , guard, rev, and holo are much easier to execute.

Last AT , Dec 2021:

2 mirages in the video, one is roaming (swiss round 5) and one in swiss round 2.

November 2021 AT:
Swiss round 1 , swiss round 4

The reality is mesmer is not as "trash"  as people make it out to be even if it is not nearly as strong as the dominant specs.

Ironic.
Both of the videos you posted had 0 mesmers in both semi and grand finals.
Maybe there is a reason for it, im sure every single mesmer player just sucks and rerolls classes because he cant handle mesmer.
Its not that class is kittening bad.
But hey, necro on every team, rev on every team, guard on every team. Should have been born a necromancer I guess lol

[Daniel Handler.4816]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

There are very few at the same level as shorts on mesmer especially on leather classes considering how much they are being carried by the leather classes itself. Playing good vs having a good class with a strong build is completely different. 

If shorts was fighting shorts one on mesmer other on a leather class i can very well say shorts on leather class will win.

You are also forgetting the lack of knowledge people have fighting against mesmers vs someone like shorts who have to know how each class works in order for mesmers to excel and outplay. Again shorts is not a benchmark for the class.

I was with you up until the last point. Why would game knowledge and practice not be the benchmark vs being carried by the class itself?

Edited January 4, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Salt Mode.3780]

12 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I was with you up until the last point. Why would game knowledge and practice not be the benchmark vs being carried by the class itself?

So you are just proving my point. In a scenario where 2 shorts are fighting each other at the same skill level and knowledge of the classes that they play as well as the counter part mesmer is going to fall short. Knowledge and practice is the benchmark of a class but that falls short into over or under tuned class simple as that. This is where the discussion is suppose to be heading not showing a video of one person excelling and saying the class is fine. 

The class is not completely unusable but it is lackluster and needs buffs compared to other class alongside with Ele and Warriors.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Daniel Handler.4816]

14 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So you are just proving my point. In a scenario where 2 shorts are fighting each other at the same skill level and knowledge of the classes that they play as well as the counter part mesmer is going to fall short. Knowledge and practice is the benchmark of a class but that falls short into over or under tuned class simple as that. This is where the discussion is suppose to be heading not showing a video of one person excelling and saying the class is fine. 

The class is not completely unusable but it is lackluster and needs buffs compared to other class alongside with Ele and Warriors.

Well yeah. But my point was the class doesn't suck. Which you seem to agree with. Vs a whole bunch of other people who just flood the forum every day with some variation of "this class is utter dogkitten." 

I agree it needs some improvements. But, and this is a point Shorts has also made, that isn't going to work if no one can agree where it is at/what it needs.

The Devs cannot please the crowd who thinks Mesmer is completely unusable without setting off another chain of nerfs down the road.  Again. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it. Both need to be addressed for any actual progress.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Well yeah. But my point was the class doesn't suck. Which you seem to agree with. Vs a whole bunch of other people who just flood the forum every day with some variation of "this class is utter dogkitten." 

I agree it needs some improvements. But, and this is a point Shorts has also made, that isn't going to work if no one can agree where it is at/what it needs.

The Devs cannot please the crowd who thinks Mesmer is completely unusable without setting off another chain of nerfs down the road.  Again. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it. Both need to be addressed for any actual progress.

I mean you have actual players like Shorts + Vallun because they are the most name dropped players comment on the needed changes on Mesmer/Virtuoso. Then you look at the balance changes for ALL class and Virtuoso and its as clear as night and day. 

At this point Mesmer mains are numbed by the false hopes that we would be listened because clearly look at the history of Mesmer balances as a whole.

[Infusion.7149]

57 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

Ironic.
Both of the videos you posted had 0 mesmers in both semi and grand finals.
Maybe there is a reason for it, im sure every single mesmer player just sucks and rerolls classes because he cant handle mesmer.
Its not that class is kittening bad.
But hey, necro on every team, rev on every team, guard on every team. Should have been born a necromancer I guess lol

You could say that about every other class not in semi/grand final then.

It is clear some specs are dominating right now, so the answer isn't just "buff mesmer". That's quite simple minded.

[Senqu.8054]

I feel like these discussions always end up being about semantic and not about the actual problem lol
 

And tbh @Daniel Handler.4816, you just keep ignoring the fact that mesmer has lost a almost not countable amount of traits and mechanics that it borders on an insult to even begin to call it viable. What you are talking about is if not just a single build, which is only really usable in niche situations and only if the skill level of the mesmer player is higher than that of the opponent. I mean, what? 

You cannot play anything on mesmer beside one dodge condi mirage and even this build is strongly handicapped. I don’t know about you but i lost more then 10 to 15 builds in the last 10 years of gw2 to a point I am not able to play anything anymore because it is just bad. If this is not the definition of „this class now sucks“ I don’t know what is. And saying the devs could not please a crowd that thinks this class is totally unusable is such an kitten argument, I will just underline it and leave it like it is because, you are now just ignoring the state of the game in comparison to what it was.

 

One more thing. Reasoning with People are Just bad at playing mesmer shows the same mentality as „favored by the best players and the best players tend to win more“, and has nothing to do with constructive feedback in this regards.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You could say that about every other class not in semi/grand final then.

It is clear some specs are dominating right now, so the answer isn't just "buff mesmer". That's quite simple minded.

Except you are forgetting that this a Mesmer section of the forum so ofc you will see "buff mesmer" and no obviously it isnt just buff mesmer there are other classes like ele and warrior that needs to be looked at but again because this is a M E S M E R section then ofc it is going to be "buff mesmer".

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Except you are forgetting that this a Mesmer section of the forum so ofc you will see "buff mesmer" and no obviously it isnt just buff mesmer there are other classes like ele and warrior that needs to be looked at but again because this is a M E S M E R section then ofc it is going to be "buff mesmer".

Why is the answer buff mesmer as opposed to nerfing the ones dominating the meta?

[Obliviscaris.6937]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why is the answer buff mesmer as opposed to nerfing the ones dominating the meta?

 

Because Mesmers (& Warriors) have seen more nerfs over the profession's lifespan than any other class in the game.

Nerfing other classes won't make the Mesmer any more capable of performing the duties it used to. This is common sense. Why even ask this?

Edited January 4, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

Because Mesmers (& Warriors) have seen more nerfs over the profession's lifespan than any other class in the game. This is common sense. Why even ask this?

Most of the warrior nerfing was done because of competitive split not allowing damage on hard CC.

Why shouldn't every dominating spec be treated just like PVE chrono (incidentally boon chrono in PVP/WVW as well)?

Edited January 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Moradorin.6217]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why is the answer buff mesmer as opposed to nerfing the ones dominating the meta?

Because mesmer is lacking whole trait lines like glamor specialization, and because Mirage is based around dodge for its defining mechanic so one dodge is the worst possible direction it could have gone. Even shorts says One dodge mirage sucks and he is one of the go to examples of people who try to stay its good/op.

Shorts himself said ". I think with Mirage having one dodge you lose too much you're too easy. People on a team fight can see you. You can use one dodge. Everyone turns on you."

Edited January 4, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Obliviscaris.6937]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why shouldn't every dominating spec be treated just like PVE chrono (incidentally boon chrono in PVP/WVW as well)?

 

We're not talking about PvE. My god this is like smacking my head against a wall.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937
Clarity

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Moradorin.6217 said:

Because mesmer is lacking whole trait lines like glamor specialization, and because Mirage is based around dodge for its defining mechanic so one dodge is the worst possible direction it could have gone. Even shorts says One dodge mirage sucks and he is one of the go to examples of people who try to stay its good/op

Well I was against one dodge mirage from the beginning because it splits functionality completely between PVE/PVP/WVW as opposed to a pure numeric change. There used to be a glamour trait "temporal enchanter" https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temporal_Enchanter which was replaced by Blurred Inscriptions.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

We're not interested in nerfs for other classes because we don't like to crap on everyone else's fun. From day one, Mesmer has received nothing but nerfs - the last 'buff' Mesmer received was getting illusionary persona BACK on Chronomancer as a baseline mechanic for the class back in 2019.

Chunks have literally been sliced off of the class via developers knee-jerk reactions and never ever been replaced. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

We're not interested in nerfs for other classes because we don't like to crap on everyone else's fun. From day one, Mesmer has received nothing but nerfs - the last 'buff' Mesmer received was getting illusionary persona BACK on Chronomancer as a baseline mechanic for the class back in 2019.

Then it becomes powercreep wars 2.

There's a solid rationale for looking at anything unsplit from PVE.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Obliviscaris.6937]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Then it becomes powercreep wars 2.

 

Powercreep? We're asking for what we had at launch to be given back to put us on a level playing field

 

 Not sure what makes this concept so difficult to comprehend.

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

Powercreep? We're asking for what we had at launch to be given back to put us on a level playing field

 

 Not sure what makes this concept so difficult to comprehend.

There's nothing but complaining here , no cogent proposals

[Moradorin.6217]

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There's nothing but complaining here , no cogent proposals

We have had major efforts in the past to make suggestions, at one point Jazz had built a collection of suggestions, as I recall it fell on deaf ears. I anyone left who could make cogent detailed proposals has given up because it seems futile.

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

We have had major efforts in the past to make suggestions, at one point Jazz had built a collection of suggestions, as I recall it fell on deaf ears. I anyone left who could make cogent detailed proposals has given up because it seems futile.

Let's say you're a balance dev. Do you think they will read a wall of text when they get paid to enact minor changes with high impact? Any proposal should be minor enough to be implemented bug-free quickly and effectively. I know the proposals in the past, I have commented on them before.
For example reverting to 2 dodges. If you change a whole traitline or a 50 things at once, how do you measure the impact of a single change? You simply cannot. That is why the Feb 2020 patch was so messy, it wasn't a flat 30-40% reduction in damage across the board: some things were left untouched while others are heavily nerfed to 0.01 coefficient due to CC. If I recall correctly the reason shroud and minions felt so oppressive is because cleave no longer exploded minions instantly; one of the counters to minions is mesmer's moa actually. The same goes for rangers pets where ranger damage was hit but some pets were not.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[FarmBotXD.1430]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You could say that about every other class not in semi/grand final then.

It is clear some specs are dominating right now, so the answer isn't just "buff mesmer". That's quite simple minded.

mesmer is not the only kitten class, there is also warrior
and then there are classes that just have 1 good build  aka ele and thief

[Moradorin.6217]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Let's say you're a balance dev. Do you think they will read a wall of text when they get paid to enact minor changes with high impact? Any proposal should be minor enough to be implemented bug-free quickly and effectively. I know the proposals in the past, I have commented on them before.
For example reverting to 2 dodges. If you change a whole traitline or a 50 things at once, how do you measure the impact of a single change? You simply cannot. That is why the Feb 2020 patch was so messy, it wasn't a flat 30-40% reduction in damage across the board: some things were left untouched while others are heavily nerfed to 0.01 coefficient due to CC. If I recall correctly the reason shroud and minions felt so oppressive is because cleave no longer exploded minions instantly; one of the counters to minions is mesmer's moa actually. The same goes for rangers pets where ranger damage was hit but some pets were not.

 

The posts you are talking about came later. That is the large elaborate wall of text posts that suggested many changes that could be used as balance options to be done over multiple patches with reconsideration and adjustments made as it progresses (like was implied after feb patch). However, prior to that giant post that lead to Jazz's submission of suggested changes we had tons of posts suggesting directly to restore 2nd dodge because the special dodge is the crux of Mirage and instead find a way to balance ambush damage. Those would typically get side tracked by people who complain that Mirage can still use ambush and stun breaks while stuned (can use skills while CCed). TBH all classes can use some skills when CCed it depends on the type of CC and the type of skill. Basically, people resent that Mirage's dodge is stationary so it still functions when CC isnt allowing movement (like a dodge roll or leap) Fact is, either way (1 dodge or 2) Mirage has that issue unless that issue alone can be addressed its not changing, therefor, using that as an excuse to never fix Mirage and leave 1 dodge is really the problem IMO.

 

It should get its dodge back and have ambush skills adjusted to "balance" it and the actions while CCed should always have been considered a separate issue. That said, Ambush skills and certain traits have been nerfed a ton already and arguably was balanced before losing 1 dodge, unless one sticks to the CC issue is SO unbalanced. In which case the 1 dodge version would need to have its ambush damage doubled and other things doubled or increased in the same % to compensate for the loss of damage when losing half its ambush ability (1 dodge) That is pretty kitten simple, but after 1 dodge all they did was nerf things more due to I can only assume the CC thing which TBH if they cannot fix that they need to learn to overlook it and just balance the kitten class not just make it unfunctional and say "ohh yea, all you people who got into playing PoF due to Mirage and spent a year+ trying to get good and gear it out etc, you are all a buncha losers too bad!" cause that's what Anet did.

 

The bold underline is basically a simple balanace suggestion that would work with 1 or two dodges. It was suggested before in various forms.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

The posts you are talking about came later. That is the large elaborate wall of text posts that suggested many changes that could be used as balance options to be done over multiple patches with reconsideration and adjustments made as it progresses (like was implied after feb patch). However, prior to that giant post that lead to Jazz's submission of suggested changes we had tons of posts suggesting directly to restore 2nd dodge because the special dodge is the crux of Mirage and instead find a way to balance ambush damage. Those would typically get side tracked by people who complain that Mirage can still use ambush and stun breaks while stuned (can use skills while CCed). TBH all classes can use some skills when CCed it depends on the type of CC and the type of skill. Basically, people resent that Mirage's dodge is stationary so it still functions when CC isnt allowing movement (like a dodge roll or leap) Fact is, either way (1 dodge or 2) Mirage has that issue unless that issue alone can be addressed its not changing, therefor, using that as an excuse to never fix Mirage and leave 1 dodge is really the problem IMO.

 

It should get its dodge back and have ambush skills adjusted to "balance" it and the actions while CCed should always have been considered a separate issue. That said, Ambush skills and certain traits have been nerfed a ton already and arguably was balanced before losing 1 dodge, unless one sticks to the CC issue is SO unbalanced. In which case the 1 dodge version would need to have its ambush damage doubled and other things doubled or increased in the same % to compensate for the loss of damage when losing half its ambush ability (1 dodge) That is pretty kitten simple, but after 1 dodge all they did was nerf things more due to I can only assume the CC thing which TBH if they cannot fix that they need to learn to overlook it and just balance the kitten class not just make it unfunctional and say "ohh yea, all you people who got into playing PoF due to Mirage and spent a year+ trying to get good and gear it out etc, you are all a buncha losers too bad!" cause that's what Anet did.

To be fair they should not listen to mesmer mains exclusively. People that only play one or two classes have a severe bias.

If by "the ability to use dodge while stunned" you mean counterpressure with ambushes while avoiding damage , other classes can do that with evades/blocks that do damage. The only outlier is if you are immobilized.

Ambush damage has already been decreased on quite a few weapons so I don't see that as the primary driver for balance right now. Even more so since torment was changed.

This is what I mean by minor changes that have large impact instead of a wall of text with who knows what will happen. In any experiment you need to have a control , in any test you need to have a variable you are testing for rather than changing many things at once.