Ideas for Ele Trade-off

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Well, I have 3 eles at the moment.

But I want to make my main ele back to Core.

So I have one of each.

She might be the Catalyst, minus the hammer though, but for now it got me thinking.

 

Core Eles have no Trade-off really.

Weavers get the extra skill per combination, and get to fuse 2 elements at the time.

Tempests get the extra F skills.

 

So am I going to give that up to get what instead?

 

This main ele is a fire ele with arcane and tempest.

If I use any of the other elements in the traitlines it wont play much different from the other 3 eles.

I wanna have one of each type.

A Cannon, a Healer, etc...

 

So I thought that eles could have one more traitline instead?

That would be our trade-offs.

But this is just an idea of the top of my head.

 

I want to hear your oppinions on this.

Your ideas for Ele trade offs.

If you wanted to bring an ele back to core, what trade offs do you think ANet should make?

 

Catalyst is just around the corner, and she most likely be the one getting it, but still, hypothetically, what are your ideas? 

Edited January 18, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Waffles.8673]

This is the same for any 'core' profession, is it not?
E.g. core ranger does not have a Celestial Form, nor can he merge with his pet.

'core' should not have a trade-off because the game wants you to pick a Elite spec,
that's the whole point. You pick a elite spec and build around that.

In essence, every profession already has a trade-off as 'core';
warriors gain bursts,
guardians gain virtues,
revenants gain legends,
rangers gain a pet,
thieves can steal,
engineers can use their toolbelt skills,
elementalists can play piano,
mesmers have illusions,
necromancers have a shroud

'core' is just the base, these days - and you *should* select a elite spec because those are supposed to be the cornerstone of your build.
 

 

Also... 'This main ele is a fire ele with arcane and tempest.

I don't wanna use any of the other elements.' .. made my skin crawl a bit 😛

[SoulGuardian.6203]

1 hour ago, Waffles.8673 said:

 

Also... 'This main ele is a fire ele with arcane and tempest.

I don't wanna use any of the other elements.' .. made my skin crawl a bit 😛

I should have added in the traitline.

Not the weapon or utility skills.

 

I'll explain.

I'm going to make a 4th ele.

Each one dedicated to one element using traitlines.

So they all play differently.

So, Fire+Arcane+Elite Spec

Same with Water, Air, and Earth.

 

Fire beung the most aggressive, water being a healer, etc...

 

However, I want all of them to be different in the ES department too.

Becaise there are only 2 ES so far, and a 3rd one comming soon.

There will be still one ele left which will have no ES in order to play different.

So it has to be Core.

However, as I explained, if I'm going to choose Fire as Core, I will have to choose another elements for the third traitline, which just brings it back to the same dilema.

 

It wont play any different than any of the other 3, if I select any of the other traitlines.

That's the idea behind the suggestion.

 

We can't just have 3 eles when there are 4 elements to choose from.

That's the gist of it. 

[Waffles.8673]

If I understand you correctly..
I'd say the 'core' traitline you're looking for is Arcane.
Standard condi builds play Fire+Earth+{ES}, standard power builds play Fire+Air+{ES}.

 

Arcane gives you Elemental Enchantment - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W).
Meaning, right now, Tempest gives you a activation on every Attunement (at the cost of increased cooldowns), Weaver gives you double Attunements (at the cost of increased cooldowns), Arcane gives you lower cooldowns on Attunements.

That being said, Arcane right now is not strong enough (imo) to justify losing either Earth or Air.. so making the Arcane traitline better would be my way of making 'core elementalist' viable.. like a different post also mentioned, maybe have Arcane traits give extra effects when the player has no elite spec selected.

[Dadnir.5038]

It's not that core ele have no trade off, it's that core ele don't have anything to trade. What core ele need is an "extra" (whether passive or active) that won't be accessible to the e-specs. The idea of the 5th element, while attractive, is unreasonable in term of volume of sheer powercreep (15 new skills is way to many new skills).

I believe that the devs "missed" the opportunity of giving core elementalist some "uniqueness" when they chose to tie the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the weapon instead of the attunments themself.

What the devs could eventually do:

- Add a brand new passive effect when switching element unique to the core profession.

- Make sunspot, electric discharge, earthen blast and healing ripple baseline for core only and replace those traits by something else (it might hurt catalyst thought)

- Bring back the old Lingering attunment effect for core only. (If it can keep active things like empowering flame or soothing mist for a few more seconds it could be worth it without being overpowered)

- Give the ability to weapon swap while in combat to core elementalist only. (the number of active skills might be difficult to handle for inexperienced players thought)

- They could move the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the F key with the same limits that overloads have.

- ... etc.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Fueki.4753]

These elite specializations being tied to Elementalist, the second-worst profession, is not enough trade-off for you?

[Waffles.8673]

Ranting about Elementalists in the subforum for Elementalists. Never gets old.
I wonder why you even felt the need to submit a reply if it's just complaints, hope it made you feel better! 😄

 

To get back on subject, I get that core Elementalist feels lacking compared to it's 'elite spec' counterparts, but imo that's how they sell elite specs 😄

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Waffles.8673 said:

To get back on subject, I get that core Elementalist feels lacking compared to it's 'elite spec' counterparts, but imo that's how they sell elite specs 😄

Agreed, but it isn't supposed to be that way.  Elite specs were billed as being a different way to play a profession, not a better way.  Doesn't seem to have panned out like that, though, as I'd wager there are very few core elementalists (or any profession, really), running around Tyria.

[Jski.6180]

Core ele should just get the "full" effect of atument trait lines all of the time not just when your in the right atument. The elite spec. should need to be in the right atument to get that atument trait line effect.

[Puck.3697]

I hate to say this. But no core specc actually has real trade offs. 

The vast majority of core speccs don't rival elites and the reasons are obvious. 

If they make core speccs as strong as elites. They effectively sell a game which people can just play the free version. The gave core accounts outside trial period away for free via twitch prime and more. 

Due to no new classes, no new races, no raised level game, no power gain in gear, and no vertical progression. They have to push sales of expansions in another way. 

Elites are that other way. Sell the power creep of elites v core and people will buy the expansion to use the strongest options. 

Without this a Spvp player is a very good example of someone that'd never need to buy the expansion. 

[Waffles.8673]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I hate to say this. But no core specc actually has real trade offs. 

The vast majority of core speccs don't rival elites and the reasons are obvious. 

If they make core speccs as strong as elites. They effectively sell a game which people can just play the free version. The gave core accounts outside trial period away for free via twitch prime and more. 

Due to no new classes, no new races, no raised level game, no power gain in gear, and no vertical progression. They have to push sales of expansions in another way. 

Elites are that other way. Sell the power creep of elites v core and people will buy the expansion to use the strongest options. 

Without this a Spvp player is a very good example of someone that'd never need to buy the expansion. 

 

This. Marketing is everything 🙂 And can you blame ANet? 

For some reason people like to think Elementalists suffer the most though and I see some crazy ideas on how to 'fix' core Elementalist haha.. ANet's solution? If you want to play a Elementalist, buy a expansion. You know what? Buy a expansion regardless!

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Waffles.8673 said:

 

This. Marketing is everything 🙂 And can you blame ANet? 

For some reason people like to think Elementalists suffer the most though and I see some crazy ideas on how to 'fix' core Elementalist haha.. ANet's solution? If you want to play a Elementalist, buy a expansion. You know what? Buy a expansion regardless!

Tbh it's a large issue which sadly with the model isn't avoidable. 

If we think to other games 

In WoW, level cap, new classes and races and upgrading gear both require the latest expansions. 

FFXIV level cap, gear, new classes and races require the latest expansions. 

Gw2 just don't have this, it's level cap doesn't go upwards, it's gear remains the same stat wise as prior expansions so unless your strictly going to play the new lands only. (And we see in PoF HoT is still far more popular open world wise) the elites are the only selling factor avaliable. 

With a no hard p2w feature (outside cosmetics and gem to gold trading which some will consider p2w) no sub fee and 0 verticle progression. No new class or race launchs the games expansions have to sell something sadly. .

So reworking core speccs. Or evening the playing field is just a cost for a profit loss realistically. 

Although. I will say even it does require the level cap to go up 10 just for the sakes of giving the expansion some requirement. 

I would love to see the expansion after EoD take focus on core speccs... 

Although the rage around having to re-earn all their gear at the new level cap may drive the opinons drastically negative

Edited January 19, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[SoulGuardian.6203]

19 hours ago, Waffles.8673 said:

Ranting about Elementalists in the subforum for Elementalists. Never gets old.
I wonder why you even felt the need to submit a reply if it's just complaints, hope it made you feel better! 😄

 

Your culture must be extremely different from mine.

I don't see how you can falsely accuse me of ranting, or how you even see a request/suggestion as ranting, but to each is own, I suppose.

 

Furthermore, it was ANet themselves that stated that they would continue to work on trade offs for all core professions. Especially Elementalist.

If you missed that article, I recommend that you look it up and read it.

 

Hence the request... and also because I felt like it. 

I belive that's what the forums are for...?

Otherwise, what are we all doing here?

Better try to help improve the game or going from section to section, hand picking other people's posts to troll on?

 

Trust me, if there was a direct messaging to ANet for suggestions forms or ideas, I would not even bother with the forums.

19 hours ago, Waffles.8673 said:

To get back on subject, I get that core Elementalist feels lacking compared to it's 'elite spec' counterparts, but imo that's how they sell elite specs 😄

 

Read @Dadnir.5038 post.

He gave an excellent idea in how to do this.

This is the type of people who are welcome in my book any day.

Someone who keeps to the topic, is objective and gives their ideas.

 

This is a brilliant idea of his.

We could get something similar to good old energy boon too, only accessible in core.

But since we don't use energy in GW2, it could just have the increase health effects and give attunements a boost, and increase their stats for a duration.

 

Have you played WvW recently?

Hardly anybody uses eles due to them being so slow at casting and how easily killed they are... with staff, which is the only decent weapon for group fights in WvW.

Unless you wanna 1on1 and pick on rookie roamers.

 

People just don't want core or weavers.

They prefer tempest, but even then only with scepter and warhorn for support only.

Heal, speed, and some armour.

 

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Furthermore, it was ANet themselves that stated that they would continue to work on trade offs for all core professions. Especially Elementalist.

If you missed that article, I recommend that you look it up and read it.

 

While I did see it. I don't trust Anet to deliever on it fairly. 

Elites are their entire selling factor of expansions, they betray that they lose money, how often do we see gaming companies take profit losses for the sake of game health. 

It's gonna be something minor imho. They always are, the elites always work out stronger then core. Because even with the trade offs they countless nerfs they've swallowed because of elites just keeps em chained down. 

7 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

@Dadnir.5038 post.

He gave an excellent idea in how to do this.

However yes, effectively whatever trade off we will see happen is going to have to be something new added to elementalist. 

I could think of several advanced ways to do it. 

I.E every elite has 4 different attunements. 

But the problem would be it'd be a large time cost to implement because you would have to program everything in the elementalist to convert to the speccs attunements. 

Adding F5 arcane to core elementalist. 

But this would mean the company have to create a fifth set of abilities to every weapon set for arcane. 

I'm expecting a more "simple" thing to be added to fix the issue however. 

[SoulGuardian.6203]

21 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I believe that the devs "missed" the opportunity of giving core elementalist some "uniqueness" when they chose to tie the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the weapon instead of the attunments themself.

What the devs could eventually do:

- Add a brand new passive effect when switching element unique to the core profession.

- Make sunspot, electric discharge, earthen blast and healing ripple baseline for core only and replace those traits by something else (it might hurt catalyst thought)

- Bring back the old Lingering attunment effect for core only. (If it can keep active things like empowering flame or soothing mist for a few more seconds it could be worth it without being overpowered)

- Give the ability to weapon swap while in combat to core elementalist only. (the number of active skills might be difficult to handle for inexperienced players thought)

- They could move the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the F key with the same limits that overloads have.

- ... etc.

All brilliant ideas.

I like them.

I could go with that.

Hopefully the devs will too.

Edited January 19, 2022 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Waffles.8673]

11 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

 

Your culture must be extremely different from mine.

I don't see how you can falsely accuse me of ranting, or how you even see a request/suggestion as ranting, but to each is own, I suppose.

 

Furthermore, it was ANet themselves that stated that they would continue to work on trade offs for all core professions. Especially Elementalist.

If you missed that article, I recommend that you look it up and read it.

 

Hence the request... and also because I felt like it. 

I belive that's what the forums are for...?

Otherwise, what are we all doing here?

Better try to help improve the game or going from section to section, hand picking other people's posts to troll on?

 

Trust me, if there was a direct messaging to ANet for suggestions forms or ideas, I would not even bother with the forums.

 

Read @Dadnir.5038 post.

He gave an excellent idea in how to do this.

This is the type of people who are welcome in my book any day.

Someone who keeps to the topic, is objective and gives their ideas.

 

This is a brilliant idea of his.

We could get something similar to good old energy boon too, only accessible in core.

But since we don't use energy in GW2, it could just have the increase health effects and give attunements a boost, and increase their stats for a duration.

 

Have you played WvW recently?

Hardly anybody uses eles due to them being so slow at casting and how easily killed they are... with staff, which is the only decent weapon for group fights in WvW.

Unless you wanna 1on1 and pick on rookie roamers.

 

People just don't want core or weavers.

They prefer tempest, but even then only with scepter and warhorn for support only.

Heal, speed, and some armour.

 

 

This is a long post, but to respond on things in reverse order (for no reason I guess?)

- I think enough people play Weaver in PvE, if not they should - the dps is just good if you're good with rotations 🙂

- I have played WvW recently, as a Elementalist even :-); to be fair I agree with the staff, the only time I use that is when defending something. Normally I play Tempest with Minstrel's and Durability Runes to provide Cleanses and defensive boons.

 

Now, as a somewhat serious suggestion - we did have alot of reworks in GW1 as well, introducing new skills.
What would make core, or any elementalist, feel like new is some new utility skills. Maybe enchantments?
something along the lines of 'Enchantment of Flames' that would cause you to apply 2 stacks of Burning whenever you would apply a stack while in fire attunement (double fire on weaver and when overload is off cooldown on tempest)? I dunno just a random thoughts

[Waffles.8673]

  

23 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Your culture must be extremely different from mine.

I don't see how you can falsely accuse me of ranting, or how you even see a request/suggestion as ranting, but to each is own, I suppose.

Not meant towards you by the way but Fueki - sorry if that was unclear 😄

 

 

22 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Furthermore, it was ANet themselves that stated that they would continue to work on trade offs for all core professions. Especially Elementalist.

If you missed that article, I recommend that you look it up and read it.

 

Also I have not, but I'm curious now 😄

Edited January 19, 2022 by Waffles.8673
Additional information

[kharmin.7683]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I hate to say this. But no core specc actually has real trade offs. 

 

 

I think that this is by design.  Elite specs need trade-offs so that they aren't better than core specs because they're not supposed to be better.  Just different, as I said earlier. 

Now, it certainly seems that this is not the case as, in my experience, I don't see a lot of core specs running around.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

think that this is by design.  Elite specs need trade-offs so that they aren't better than core specs because they're not supposed to be better.  Just different, as I said earlier. 

Now, it certainly seems that this is not the case as, in my experience, I don't see a lot of core specs running around.

aye, in HoT as far as i understand it was the concept that Elites would provide a alternative playstyle, not a garunteed improvement on core. but defintly did not work out that way in alot of cases.

the problem is Anet seem to balance on the concept of "Viability" and not "meta".. .Anet seem to be fine providing the specc can clear all content. problem is this sorta concept does not take into account other factors such as Player perception. Just because a core Ele does have a 32k DPS build and that is by large enough to do all content. the fact weaver does 38k by default makes it better

this problem exists largely because of overlapping.. its just elementalist is one of the worst examples of this.

What makes FB and DH both viable is the fact they dont overlap. DH is a Power DPS. FB is a Support/Condi DPS hybrid, they cant overrule one another.

u cant have 2 Power DPS in 1 proffession and expect one to not overrule the other. and they're never gonna make the Newest thing weaker then the old, because no ones gonna wanna play 1 build for Multitudes more years.

[greedywholesome.9081]

The title of the thread read to me as "How to squeeze water from rock"

 

WTF you talking about w/ ele tradeoffs especially w/ core. 

 

Nothing left to trade, omg. Core specs sux. 

[Jski.6180]

59 minutes ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

The title of the thread read to me as "How to squeeze water from rock"

 

WTF you talking about w/ ele tradeoffs especially w/ core. 

 

Nothing left to trade, omg. Core specs sux. 

I think the ideal is to give the core ele something that the elite spec do not have witch right now the elite spec are just an core ele +. Asking for a trade off can be (if they class has nothing to start with) a means of buffing.

[greedywholesome.9081]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think the ideal is to give the core ele something that the elite spec do not have witch right now the elite spec are just an core ele +. Asking for a trade off can be (if they class has nothing to start with) a means of buffing.

 

Yes buff core spec please but not sure if anything to trade off coz core utilities, weapon skills and traits are BAAAAAD. 

However, we many need to borrow necromancer, ranger or guard (core) for their credit cards so we can trade something. 

 

Right now, we need donations more than trade-offs

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 1/20/2022 at 6:00 PM, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

Yes buff core spec please but not sure if anything to trade off coz core utilities, weapon skills and traits are BAAAAAD. 

However, we many need to borrow necromancer, ranger or guard (core) for their credit cards so we can trade something. 

 

Right now, we need donations more than trade-offs

...and here comes the troll out of the blue blasting trash out without knowing what's going on.

You know how out of depth you are right now?

Not to say something worse.

The mere fact that @Jski.6180 and I even bothered to reply to you.... 

Oh dear, oh dear... where do all these people come from?

Read the entire thread before you start blasting things out.

Also read ANet's post on Trade-Offs.

... and chill out. You sound nervous and hyperventilating by tbe way you type.

We don't want you to pass out due to the topic.

Consult your doctor before frequenting forums.

 

Back on topic.

This is an idea for ANet due to the fact that they promised trade offs for classes that otherwise are missing aspects of the builds that Elite Specs have, and core don't.

Elementalist being one of them.

 

Do everyone a favour and refrain from replying, if you don't know what the topic is in its entirety, or have nothing constructive to type.

In case you don't know, it is against the forum rules.

Thank you. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 1/19/2022 at 12:13 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's not that core ele have no trade off, it's that core ele don't have anything to trade. What core ele need is an "extra" (whether passive or active) that won't be accessible to the e-specs. The idea of the 5th element, while attractive, is unreasonable in term of volume of sheer powercreep (15 new skills is way to many new skills).

I believe that the devs "missed" the opportunity of giving core elementalist some "uniqueness" when they chose to tie the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the weapon instead of the attunments themself.

What the devs could eventually do:

- Add a brand new passive effect when switching element unique to the core profession.

- Make sunspot, electric discharge, earthen blast and healing ripple baseline for core only and replace those traits by something else (it might hurt catalyst thought)

- Bring back the old Lingering attunment effect for core only. (If it can keep active things like empowering flame or soothing mist for a few more seconds it could be worth it without being overpowered)

- Give the ability to weapon swap while in combat to core elementalist only. (the number of active skills might be difficult to handle for inexperienced players thought)

- They could move the "transmute [x] aura" skills to the F key with the same limits that overloads have.

- ... etc.

I like the idea of bringing back Lingering Attunements as a base ele thing. Simple, easy to understand, draws from previous mechanics, and rewards rotating attunements without being obnoxious about it.

 

You could possibly also make it so that core elementalists always have the attunement effect for their attunement, but where this is boosted for the elements that they take the associated traitline with. Allow people to replicate the 'take at least five points in every traitline so you can have the attunement effect for every attunement' approach that you could follow back when you spent points in traitlines rather than just picking three to use.

[Jski.6180]

15 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I like the idea of bringing back Lingering Attunements as a base ele thing. Simple, easy to understand, draws from previous mechanics, and rewards rotating attunements without being obnoxious about it.

 

You could possibly also make it so that core elementalists always have the attunement effect for their attunement, but where this is boosted for the elements that they take the associated traitline with. Allow people to replicate the 'take at least five points in every traitline so you can have the attunement effect for every attunement' approach that you could follow back when you spent points in traitlines rather than just picking three to use.

The elite spec could use lingering attunement though it was more or less just a trade off for not having arcain line alone.