Help me choose the best solo profession.

[Stx.4857]

21 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

For mesmer yes, I've seen many Chronomancers do 20k+ sustained DPS on their own but for thief around 10k is about the extent of where many builds go which is odd given how thief, according to the devs., is supposed to be "the single target class".

Yea.  Thief is one of my main two characters, and even though I can deal great single target damage with P/D in vipers...  when I go out and try to solo champs or hero points that dps drops significantly.  I actually prefer d/d condi for open world but I'm pretty sure I'm not doing 10k dps.  Meanwhile my necro just bulldozes through everything haha.

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

As a basic-level warm-up:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Ezal_the_Quick

I am waiting video with Ren`s super-abilities, outshining any other spec.

Thank you.

I'm really not trying to be insulting here, but Ezal is not a good test case.  It's just not a boss that's going to challenge a top tier solo build played properly.  There's very little area denial, nothing like unstable magic effects, no phase changes, and the boss doesn't move around.

 Here's sword weaver taking down Ezal no problem in 60 seconds.  Weaver isn't really top tier (I personally think it's pretty great, though!), but against a boss like this I believe it can keep up fairly well with renegade.  So what's the difference?  Why is renegade "top tier" while weaver isn't?

For starters, weaver is melee-locked.  If I have to move out of melee range for any reason (e.g. area denial), I can't continue to deal damage.  Renegade can because it deals damage with wider area effects and a ranged weapon.

Next there's the healing.  Weaver's big heal requires a long evade/movement skill (riptide) in water attunement.  It's a damage loss to use it both because it's slow, it moves you out of position, and additionally requires combo effects, but also because water attunement has no high-damage skills.  Meanwhile, renegade has heal skills in both legends as well as passive healing from torment runes and battle scars.  It just keeps piling on the damage while it heals.

How about CC?  As with pretty much everything else, renegade can just crush breakbars at the push of a button and without really giving up much.  Compare to weaver, which has to play Chopin on the piano while hopping on one leg with a blindfold on and again has to rotate to water for a DPS loss against tougher breakbars.

The list goes on, but the long and short of it is that in every category renegade is simply fantastic.  It can do as much or more damage than a great build like weaver.  It has as good or better sustain.  It's far more versatile.  It has way better boon access.  And and and.  It's just plain better than even a great build like this that can solo ridiculous things and it never has to pay for any of it the way most other builds do.

Here's Lord Hizen's Renegade in action.  

[taara.3217]

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Here's sword weaver taking down Ezal no problem in 60 seconds.

Here's Lord Hizen's Renegade in action.  

As a subscriber of both your and Hizen`s YT channels I know about this videos.

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm really not trying to be insulting here, but Ezal is not a good test case.  It's just not a boss that's going to challenge a top tier solo build played properly.  There's very little area denial, nothing like unstable magic effects, no phase changes, and the boss doesn't move around.

 

Versatile solo buld has to be able to prove itself equally well with Champ in Kessex Hills and Bounty in Elon Riverlands (for example). That is why we say about it either it most or less versatile (stronger) solo build.

If one build successfully deal with both Toxic Spider Queen and Matriarch Talonslayer (for example) and other even more successful with TSQ (say, deal more DPS) but have way bigger problems with MT - the first build is more versatile (stronger).

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Renegade can... How about CC?  renegade can... in every category renegade can... do as much or more damage than a great build.. good or better sustain... far more versatile... way better boon access... and and and...

I truly respect you, your experience as solo player and your point of view - the same I have heard on previous page. That is ok. I don`t think so and don't take any "on paper" arguments seriously.

Edited February 11, 2022 by taara.3217

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, taara.3217 said:

As a subscriber of both your and Hizen`s YT channels I know about this videos.

Versatile solo buld has to be able to prove itself equally well with Champ in Kessex Hills and Bounty in Elon Riverlands (for example). That is why we say about it either it most or less versatile solo build.

If one build successfully deal with both Toxic Spider Queen and Matriarch Talonslayer (for example) and other even more successful with TSQ (say, deal more DPS) but have way bigger problems with MT - the first build is more versatile (stronger).

I truly respect you, your experience as solo player and you point of view - the same I have heard on previous page. That is ok. I don`t think so and don't take any "on paper" arguments seriously.

I'm a little confused at the response.  I went into quite a bit of specific detail on the advantages Renegade has.  Your response is to say that it's only "on paper".  Do you refute any of it?

You don't seem satisfied with a video highlighting several far more challenging encounters.  I did you the courtesy of explaining why Ezal is not a good test case.  Would you care to explain why Hizen's video is not a good test case or why you think Ezal is a better test?

You mention toxic spider queen.  Again, I'm a little confused as to why you believe this would make a good test case.  Spider Queen is a one-trick pony.  Avoid the web and you win.  Due to poor scaling at such a low level, any max level solo build should be able to take this boss down in the 10-20 second range, which means you only have to avoid the web once. 

This would not make a good test of anything for the same reason Ezal doesn't.  The mechanics just aren't there to show any difference between top tier and middle of the pack whereas in Hizen's video most of those bosses do and I explained some of the specific reasons why.

Thanks for the kind words, by the way. 🙂

[taara.3217]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm a little confused at the response.  I went into quite a bit of specific detail on the advantages Renegade has. Your response is to say that it's only "on paper".  Do you refute any of it?

Spec "on paper" not equal Spec in combat. I don`t discuss spec "on paper", it is not interesting to me. That is why I cannot refute any of arguments you told about - you are right ("on paper").

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You don't seem satisfied with a video highlighting several far more challenging encounters. 

If I`m subscriber of Hizen`s channel I`m obviously quite satisfied with his work otherwise what for? )

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I did you the courtesy of explaining why Ezal is not a good test case. 

Versatile solo build has to be able to prove itself equally well with Champ in Kessex Hills and Bounty in Elon Riverlands. That is why we say about it either it most or less versatile (stronger) solo build.

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Would you care to explain why Hizen's video is not a good test case or why you think Ezal is a better test?

Hizen's video is a good test case, but:

1. It is only 8 bosses. How much Champ/Bounty/Legendary in OW PVE we have - 8, 10, 15, 100? I cannot say about Build1 is the most versatile because of only ~3% or less of bosses. And every Spec has enough number of Champ that is harder to deal with than Legendary.

2. All the same 8 bosses (and even more) he did with all spec in his Best <Spec> Build For Open World PVE series.

3. Ezal is not a better test, Ezal is just one more, another test. And he is quite good as an basic example of Champs that I guess can picked Ren's "on paper" arguments to pieces.

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

You mention toxic spider queen.  Again, I'm a little confused as to why you believe this would make a good test case. 

It was just as an example not so important in context.

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

any max level solo build should be able to take this boss down in the 10-20 second range

15-20. But not so sure about EVERY spec.

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The mechanics just aren't there to show any difference between top tier and middle

No, it cannot be "no any difference". If your Elysima take 1min with Boss_X and some Ren take 1.5 or 2min (for example) it is  difference. If your Elysima can win 8 of the10 the same Boss_X and some Ren 4 of the10 - it is difference, etc.

I`ve seen enough (same often than any other spec) "top tier super-Ren" (80lvl) on the ground vs not top-tier Varre, Ezal, Ruye, Temvay, Aerl, Flyrra,  don`t even say about PoF/HoT maps.

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Thanks for the kind words, by the way. 🙂

Say hello to Elysima 🤩

Edited February 11, 2022 by taara.3217

[The Boz.2038]

If you have two bosses, one with a million health, and one with two million, and both hit for 5000 damage every 2 seconds, there is no need to do the first one to "prove your build is really the good leet uber" if you have already done the second boss.

There is no need to prove anything against Ezal if killing Balthazar is more challenging across every measureable metric, and has been accomplished. What next? "Oh, you killed Ezal, but can you handle This Veteran Skale!?"

[taara.3217]

59 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If you have two bosses, one with a million health, and one with two million, and both hit for 5000 damage every 2 seconds, there is no need to do the first one to "prove your build is really the good leet uber" if you have already done the second boss.

There is no need to prove anything against Ezal if killing Balthazar is more challenging across every measureable metric, and has been accomplished. What next? "Oh, you killed Ezal, but can you handle This Veteran Skale!?"

Sorry, but I don`t think you have enough solo experience if say this. Just three moments:

1. There are too much mechanics and its combinations (+ some of it is random) to make equal sign between two bosses with different HP.

2. Balthazar one of the easiest Champ (Elysima, am I wrong ? :) ) I remembere that it was even the sort of competition who kill B faster - it was several results less than 1min (30-50sec)

3. You can kill Balthazar but have much more troubles with Ezal - it`s totaly two different playstyle bosses.

Edited February 11, 2022 by taara.3217

[The Boz.2038]

Sorry, but I don't think you have enough solo experience if say this.

The Skale has stealth, a totally different playstyle to Ezal. Obviously.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

Spec "on paper" not equal Spec in combat. I don`t discuss spec "on paper", it is not interesting to me. That is why I cannot refute any of arguments you told about - you are right ("on paper").

If I`m subscriber of Hizen`s channel I`m obviously quite satisfied with his work otherwise what for? )

Versatile solo build has to be able to prove itself equally well with Champ in Kessex Hills and Bounty in Elon Riverlands. That is why we say about it either it most or less versatile (stronger) solo build.

Hizen's video is a good test case, but:

1. It is only 8 bosses. How much Champ/Bounty/Legendary in OW PVE we have - 8, 10, 15, 100? I cannot say about Build1 is the most versatile because of only ~3% or less of bosses. And every Spec has enough number of Champ that is harder to deal with than Legendary.

2. All the same 8 bosses (and even more) he did with all spec in his Best <Spec> Build For Open World PVE series.

3. Ezal is not a better test, Ezal is just one more, another test. And he is quite good as an basic example of Champs that I guess can picked Ren's "on paper" arguments to pieces.

 

It was just as an example not so important in context.

 

15-20. But not so sure about EVERY spec.

 

No, it cannot be "no any difference". If your Elysima take 1min with Boss_X and some Ren take 1.5 or 2min (for example) it is  difference. If your Elysima can win 8 of the10 the same Boss_X and some Ren 4 of the10 - it is difference, etc.

I`ve seen enough (same often than any other spec) "top tier super-Ren" (80lvl) on the ground vs not top-tier Varre, Ezal, Ruye, Temvay, Aerl, Flyrra,  don`t even say about PoF/HoT maps.

 

Say hello to Elysima 🤩

I see your point and agree that you can't simply choose one boss and extrapolate to all bosses.  However, I feel you're not arguing in good faith here.  You refuse to debate specifics while setting unreasonable conditions on the discussion.  Presumably, if I provided you with video examples of TSQ, Ezal, and Matriarch you'd make the same argument and this discussion would move exactly nowhere.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

Sorry, but I don`t think you have enough solo experience if say this. Just three moments:

1. There are too much mechanics and its combinations (+ some of it is random) to make equal sign between two bosses with different HP.

2. Balthazar one of the easiest Champ (Elysima, am I wrong ? :) ) I remembere that it was even the sort of competition who kill B faster - it was several results less than 1min (30-50sec)

3. You can kill Balthazar but have much more troubles with Ezal - it`s totaly two different playstyle bosses.

I think "The Boz" may have worded the argument poorly.  There is more to the calculation than boss health and DPS.  It can be true for a boss like Balthazar, but just because a build can generate a fast time on a boss like this doesn't mean you can extrapolate to all bosses.

In the Balthazar video I'm able to stand in place and focus completely on DPS.  I'm utilizing high armor value and the particular mechanics of that fight providing significant down time from the boss to burn him down before his damage output becomes unsustainable.  If Balthazar had 2 million health instead of ~750k, I would not be able to continue standing there teeing off because there are no further breakbars or down time after the 50% mark.  There are a couple of other reasons his damage output is not as uniform as it appears in this video, but I digress.

To illustrate the point, consider this clip.  This is a boss that uses frequent CC at close range and also teleports away.  I can't employ the same strategy I used in the Balthazar solo because I don't have any way to passively avoid those stuns (i.e. aegis or stability).  He'll just interrupt my burn, deal a ton of damage to me, and force me to back off and heal.  Even though this boss deals less damage per second than Balthazar is capable of, the mechanics of the fight are more disruptive and you can see my damage output is much less as a result.

Renegade would not suffer such a dramatic loss.  It has better access to stability and it can deal damage effectively from range.  If renegade can output the same top end damage but the specific of its kit allow it to apply that damage more consistently and generally with greater ease, it is the better build.  Like I said, that's what makes renegade so good.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I see your point and agree that you can't simply choose one boss and extrapolate to all bosses.  However, I feel you're not arguing in good faith here.  You refuse to debate specifics while setting unreasonable conditions on the discussion.  Presumably, if I provided you with video examples of TSQ, Ezal, and Matriarch you'd make the same argument and this discussion would move exactly nowhere.

 

Ignore quoted wrong person lol. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

Spec "on paper" not equal Spec in combat. I don`t discuss spec "on paper", it is not interesting to me. That is why I cannot refute any of arguments you told about - you are right ("on paper").

This argument doesn't make alot of sense. 

This isn't "on paper" we aren't comparing raw healing or DPS values in a bubble. So the arguments not a "on paper". His points made in combat comparisons. 

I don't know why your not trying to deny this so hard. Or if you think such discussions are gonna get renegade nerfed. 

In combat renegade is extremely strong. And I'm sorry it's been again and again proven realistically. Every guide, every theorycrafter echo the exact same information regarding these things. 

I'd really like to hear your opinion to who you think is the strongest solo specc in the game if your trying to state renegade isn't 

 

[taara.3217]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Presumably, if I provided you with video examples of TSQ, Ezal, and Matriarch you'd make the same argument and this discussion would move exactly nowhere.

It depends on the numbers of combats and I am glad that we move in right direction - we have no any other way to say about real build than try it in as much as possible combats (different).

 

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

In the Balthazar video

It was not only Weaver (you), but FB, Scourge and Chrono was in less than minute timing – it cannot be a coincidence, Balth is one of the easiest Champ.

 

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

To illustrate the point, consider this clip. 

Sure, as I said previously, there are a lot of mechanics and its combinations, it`s the same what you mean saying “can't simply choose one boss and extrapolate to all bosses“. Agree.

 

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Renegade would not suffer such a dramatic loss.

I don`t know as have no chance to see Ren combat with Coztic.

Thank you for comments.

Edited February 11, 2022 by taara.3217

[taara.3217]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Or if you think such discussions are gonna get renegade nerfed. 

No., what for ? ))))  And don't be angry, please, I have no any intention to quarrel and it is sometimes, maybe, my explains don`t meet right context as English not my native lang )

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

In combat renegade is extremely strong.

Sorry, but I always said that Renegade is one of the strongest solo Spec )

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I'd really like to hear your opinion to who you think is the strongest solo

I can say only about OW PVE as I have no any experience in fractals,  raids etc. because of time. And as I said on this forum previously (in relevant themes), to my mind, based on my experience, Mirage is the most versatile choice as solo Spec.

Thank you, Daddy and sorry if I've offended you.

Edited February 11, 2022 by taara.3217

[Puck.3697]

33 minutes ago, taara.3217 said:

can say only about OW PVE as I have no any experience in fractals,  raids etc. because of time. And as I said on this forum previously (in relevant themes), to my mind, based on my experience, Mirage is the most versatile choice as solo Spec.

Thank you, Daddy and sorry if I've offended you

A differing opinon isn't ever going to offend me 🙂

Was just curious to what you would class in the same league as renegade. 

[taara.3217]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

A differing opinon isn't ever going to offend me 🙂

Was just curious to what you would class in the same league as renegade. 

And what`s your main class?

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, taara.3217 said:

And what`s your main class?

I have 1 of every proffession, I think most of my hours are in elementalist and mesmer tho. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I have 1 of every proffession, I think most of my hours are in elementalist and mesmer tho. 

Hey, me too!  Although I really only play weaver.  It just feels right to me.

[Stx.4857]

I mean mesmer is a great Solo class and condi mirage should definitely be in the upper echelon of Solo specs but it's not better than renegade or scourge imo (and I think most peoples)

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Stx.4857 said:

I mean mesmer is a great Solo class and condi mirage should definitely be in the upper echelon of Solo specs but it's not better than renegade or scourge imo (and I think most peoples)

Agreed.  Mirage is certainly one of the best specs for tough boss solos, but I don't think its damage and sustain are on par with scourge and renegade.  Still, the ability to dodge while stunned or performing other actions and even increase your damage output by doing so is just incredibly powerful.  Mirage can also be effective from any range and has great mobility via teleport skills.  Staff mirage is also possibly the best low-intensity build in the game.  I'd even place it ahead of minion necro builds.

[fixit.7189]

infinite horizon staff/staff mirage can pretty much do it all and it's my go to prof if i want to solo open world stuff in general. it's tanky, has good sustain, does ok dps, and is easy to play. plus if you swap to axe/pistol-torch, you can do some pretty good dps too. just an all around great build imo.

Edited February 12, 2022 by fixit.7189

[taara.3217]

4 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

infinite horizon staff/staff mirage can pretty much do it all and it's my go to prof if i want to solo open world stuff in general. it's tanky, has good sustain, does ok dps, and is easy to play. plus if you swap to axe/pistol-torch, you can do some pretty good dps too. just an all around great build imo.

Good luck to you, my Mirage bro )

[taara.3217]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Mirage is certainly one of the best specs for tough boss solos, but I don't think its damage and sustain are on par with scourge and renegade.

Share my point of view:
Pure Damage:  Renegade -> Mirage -> Scourge
Pure Sustain:  Mirage -> Scourge -> Renegade

Edited February 12, 2022 by taara.3217

[Puck.3697]

17 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Hey, me too!  Although I really only play weaver.  It just feels right to me.

Weaver is alot of fun, I think I just like mesmer more aesthetically. 

Although EoD may shake things up as I'm not all that satisfied with either of the elites coming to these 2.. but never know they maybe drastically improved by launch... Although that maybe a tad too far in the copium fields.

[LucianDK.8615]

You cant go wrong with Scourge necromancer. Very relaxed playstyle without being an eggshell.