To compensate the lack of damage on CC warrior weapons

[Zekent.3652]

Just make autos faster on hammer and mace, mace auto chains hits nice, but they're soooooo slow that it's not even worth it, and hammer auto chains, apart from the need of hitting faster, also needs a way to remove stab, on like the 3rd auto.

Those were nuked weapons that lost a lot of damage, this is probably a healthy and easy way to fix it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

41 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Just make autos faster on hammer and mace, mace auto chains hits nice, but they're soooooo slow that it's not even worth it, and hammer auto chains, apart from the need of hitting faster, also needs a way to remove stab, on like the 3rd auto.

Those were nuked weapons that lost a lot of damage, this is probably a healthy and easy way to fix it.

Faster AA's by at least 20%. Not sure if boon removal on core warrior is okay though on an AA chain.

Maybe a trait like Unsuspecting Foe could be reworked to remove Stability on a critical hit? Or MH could make Hammer Bursts ignore stability and strip stability per bar of adrenaline spent (i.e. T3 Earthshaker removes 3 stacks of stability, but also ignores any remaining stacks).

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

My proposal:
Body Blow: (blah same effects) + "If there's an enemy with protection and/or stability within 360 range of a player, increase outgoing damage by flat 1500 (can crit, cannot hit harder than 4000) on every skill that would disable (stun/daze/knockdown/whatever) enemy".
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

My proposal:
Body Blow: (blah same effects) + "If there's an enemy with protection and/or stability within 360 range of a player, increase outgoing damage by flat 1500 (can crit, cannot hit harder than 4000) on every skill that would disable (stun/daze/knockdown/whatever) enemy".
 

So... The current effect with the bleed, and then the exact damage I'm asking for, but in a way that can't be countered? Current Body Blow does not activate if the enemy has stability, so changing the bleed to strike would mean that no damage goes through if the target has stability. You proposal is much stronger. Can you please buff warrior more please instead of whatever the hell CMC is doing?

Edited February 4, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Phone typos

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

30 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So... The current effect with the bleed, and then the exact damage I'm asking for, but in a way that can't be countered? Current Body Blow does not activate if the enemy has stability, so changing the bleed to strike would mean that no damage goes through if the target has stability. You proposal is much stronger. Can you please buff warrior more please instead of whatever the hell CMC is going?

I though that Body Blow is unconditional and triggers on any cc skill as long as it connects with enemy, there's no statement that it requires target to actually be cced by it. Sounds like a bug to me or a very unclear description.
One way or another, I wanted Body Blow to apply the conditions as always unconditionally (as it should) on ANY skill that is considered as CC AND additionally it would increase outgoing damage for said skills by that 1500(4000) flat damage IF there are any enemies with stability or/and protection within that 360 radius of player on them.
I'm not a warrior main though, it's just a random idea that popped-up.
IMO, like pretty much all classes Warriors need a cleanup in traits, it really feels messed up with how they're placed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I though that Body Blow is unconditional and triggers on any cc skill as long as it connects with enemy, there's no statement that it requires target to actually be cced by it. Sounds like a bug to me or a very unclear description.
One way or another, I wanted Body Blow to apply the conditions as always unconditionally (as it should) on ANY skill that is considered as CC AND additionally it would increase outgoing damage for said skills by that 1500(4000) flat damage IF there are any enemies with stability or/and protection within that 360 radius of player on them.
I'm not a warrior main though, it's just a random idea that popped-up.
IMO, like pretty much all classes Warriors need a cleanup in traits, it really feels messed up with how they're placed.

Body Blow requires the target to be CCd and is negated by stability. It's in the note section on the wiki page.

 

That said, removing that stipulation itself would be a decent QOL buff, but it needs strike damage that can crit somewhere in there. A good benchmark would be 2000 damage on a Berserker ammy plus scholar runes on a non crit. 

You would want it to scale with power and not be flat damage, otherwise @Multicolorhipster.9751 will start actually murdering people at Far.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Body Blow requires the target to be CCd and is negated by stability. It's in the note section on the wiki page.

 

That said, removing that stipulation itself would be a decent QOL buff, but it needs strike damage that can crit somewhere in there. A good benchmark would be 2000 damage on a Berserker ammy plus scholar runes on a non crit. 

You would want it to scale with power and not be flat damage, otherwise @Multicolorhipster.9751 will start actually murdering people at Far.

The info about it being negated should be in the game itself and not on some wiki in the first place.

I agree with that "scale with", but I still believe there must be "minimum" and "maximum" for that damage and don't forget that it would still require enemy to have stability and/or prot to actually get that damage, if enemy doesn't have it then there's no damage from it.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

Would having +5% attack speed per enemy CC'd via Hammer Mastery help make Hammer more viable? With Hammer itself can CC 3 times (including burst) with 2 of them being AoE. That way you can hit 15% (close to the 20% proposed by @Lan Deathrider.5910) when fighting a single target.

Alternatively, could follow the Guardian Glacial Blow trait and make it so Backbreaker has new effects on use. (either remove stability and do extra damage, or possibly add 3 second cooldown to all skills including stunbreaks)

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

38 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The info about it being negated should be in the game itself and not on some wiki in the first place.

I agree, but it can be implied from the wording: "Stuns, dazes, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, and launches inflict bleeding and weakness."
If they have stability then they don't get stunned, dazed, knocked backed, pulled, pushed, or launched.

38 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I agree with that "scale with", but I still believe there must be "minimum" and "maximum" for that damage and don't forget that it would still require enemy to have stability and/or prot to actually get that damage, if enemy doesn't have it then there's no damage from it.

The minimum is whatever it comes out to at 1000 power. If you want to impose a maximum on it, then that would be a new thing and I would only agree with it if such a maximum damage were also applied to other skills/traits on other classes.

There is no maximum on things like Maul where Soulbeasts are able to stack multiple +25% damage modifiers.

There is no maximum number of condi stacks. Nothing stopping a druid from dropping +20 stacks of bleed on a target that has blown their condi cleanses on the last stack of 20.

You get my point? I don't disagree with you in principle, but such a thing would only be acceptable if such damage ceilings were applied across the board on all the classes.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I agree, but it can be implied from the wording: "Stuns, dazes, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, and launches inflict bleeding and weakness."
If they have stability then they don't get stunned, dazed, knocked backed, pulled, pushed, or launched.

The minimum is whatever it comes out to at 1000 power. If you want to impose a maximum on it, then that would be a new thing and I would only agree with it if such a maximum damage were also applied to other skills/traits on other classes.

There is no maximum on things like Maul where Soulbeasts are able to stack multiple +25% damage modifiers.

There is no maximum number of condi stacks. Nothing stopping a druid from dropping +20 stacks of bleed on a target that has blown their condi cleanses on the last stack of 20.

You get my point? I don't disagree with you in principle, but such a thing would only be acceptable if such damage ceilings were applied across the board on all the classes.

The reason why I want minimum and maximum on it is to prevent from "spammable cc builds dealing 3581956713985 damage" like it was prefeb2020 patch. It would always guarantee X minimal damage on enemy without deleting it fully and maximum allowing enemy to still have some chance to fight back and not just melt to CCs alone.
Yes, I would like to also add this minimum/maximum principle on passive traits on different classes, so the game would be about skill and not about who triggers more traits first...
I think that condies overall need some "downtime" if they're cleansed from player, since it's a bit kitten broken. Like if I remove x stacks of whatever I would get immunity to that condition for 2s or so. It would require balancing cleanses and reducing them here and there, but current condies are a bit busted.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

49 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The reason why I want minimum and maximum on it is to prevent from "spammable cc builds dealing 3581956713985 damage" like it was prefeb2020 patch. It would always guarantee X minimal damage on enemy without deleting it fully and maximum allowing enemy to still have some chance to fight back and not just melt to CCs alone.
Yes, I would like to also add this minimum/maximum principle on passive traits on different classes, so the game would be about skill and not about who triggers more traits first...
I think that condies overall need some "downtime" if they're cleansed from player, since it's a bit kitten broken. Like if I remove x stacks of whatever I would get immunity to that condition for 2s or so. It would require balancing cleanses and reducing them here and there, but current condies are a bit busted.

That specifically is a problem with this game in general, spamming high damage skills back to back.

Before the crap fest of the Feb2020 patch I suggested a hard cap on damage modifiers applied globally in competitive play. Would have been easier than the stupid BS they put themselves through and wouldn't have missed half the skills like they did 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Body Blow requires the target to be CCd and is negated by stability. It's in the note section on the wiki page.

 

That said, removing that stipulation itself would be a decent QOL buff, but it needs strike damage that can crit somewhere in there. A good benchmark would be 2000 damage on a Berserker ammy plus scholar runes on a non crit. 

You would want it to scale with power and not be flat damage, otherwise @Multicolorhipster.9751 will start actually murdering people at Far.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am shocked an appalled at the idea of trading safety for security as it goes against CmC's cardinal virtues. 

I must say that this entire idea seems rather pointless. The very thought of having to trait something to get your CC skills to do damage is a big waste of time. The CC skills themselves should just do damage.

To be quite honest; that sounds like exactly what @TrollingDemigod.3041is asking for, to no surprise at all. Even CmC's most faithful are eventually tempted by brutish and pagan ideas such as "fun." So much so that we often betray our deity's most concrete ideals.

 

So here is my counter proposal:

Just make CC skills do damage again. 

Tweak the damage(up or down) to be based on skill used. Pommel bash should not do 3x more damage than Backbreaker. Bull's Charge should not have a base power coeff of 2.0(One of the highest) but it also shouldn't crit for 13 when you consider its value. 

For Body Blow; as someone who uses it occasionally, I would much rather some sort of armor-sundering effect that the heretics on my team can make use of. Either a unique +% damage taken debuff or stacks of vuln added to the existing effects.

I would especially prefer this if my CC is going to continue doing 0 damage. Because that's how I like my video game. With 0 damage. Blinks three times

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am shocked an appalled at the idea of trading safety for security as it goes against CmC's cardinal virtues. 

I must say that this entire idea seems rather pointless. The very thought of having to trait something to get your CC skills to do damage is a big waste of time. The CC skills themselves should just do damage.

To be quite honest; that sounds like exactly what @TrollingDemigod.3041is asking for, to no surprise at all. Even CmC's most faithful are eventually tempted by brutish and pagan ideas such as "fun." So much so that we often betray our deity's most concrete ideals.

 

So here is my counter proposal:

Just make CC skills do damage again. 

Tweak the damage(up or down) to be based on skill used. Pommel bash should not do 3x more damage than Backbreaker. Bull's Charge should not have a base power coeff of 2.0(One of the highest) but it also shouldn't crit for 13 when you consider its value. 

For Body Blow; as someone who uses it occasionally, I would much rather some sort of armor-sundering effect that the heretics on my team can make use of. Either a unique +% damage taken debuff or stacks of vuln added to the existing effects.

I would especially prefer this if my CC is going to continue doing 0 damage. Because that's how I like my video game. With 0 damage. Blinks three times

I can see Body Blow being weakness and 10 stacks of vuln on CC.

*Excuse my, officer, I'd like to report a person in distress*

[Gotejjeken.1267]

If we're putting dmg back on CC we really need to turn down some of warrior's defenses as compensation. 

Or limit the amount of CC that can come out of one class, because a good warrior can put a ridiculous amount out in a very short time, along with having nikes that only thieves can think about keeping up with.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

If we're putting dmg back on CC we really need to turn down some of warrior's defenses as compensation. 

No. Warrior is in need of an overall buff, not another inappropriate tradeoff.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Or limit the amount of CC that can come out of one class, because a good warrior can put a ridiculous amount out in a very short time, along with having nikes that only thieves can think about keeping up with.  

Only if you remove all of the telegraphs from the damage skills.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I am shocked an appalled at the idea of trading safety for security as it goes against CmC's cardinal virtues. 

I must say that this entire idea seems rather pointless. The very thought of having to trait something to get your CC skills to do damage is a big waste of time. The CC skills themselves should just do damage.

To be quite honest; that sounds like exactly what @TrollingDemigod.3041is asking for, to no surprise at all. Even CmC's most faithful are eventually tempted by brutish and pagan ideas such as "fun." So much so that we often betray our deity's most concrete ideals.

 

So here is my counter proposal:

Just make CC skills do damage again. 

Tweak the damage(up or down) to be based on skill used. Pommel bash should not do 3x more damage than Backbreaker. Bull's Charge should not have a base power coeff of 2.0(One of the highest) but it also shouldn't crit for 13 when you consider its value. 

For Body Blow; as someone who uses it occasionally, I would much rather some sort of armor-sundering effect that the heretics on my team can make use of. Either a unique +% damage taken debuff or stacks of vuln added to the existing effects.

I would especially prefer this if my CC is going to continue doing 0 damage. Because that's how I like my video game. With 0 damage. Blinks three times

No, the moment you bring damage to CC skills without any kind of conditions to restrict them (dmg% changes are nono) you ask for perma CC bots, that's gameplay promoting toxicity. It should have value in fights, but shouldn't be "I smash I kill" brainlet "fun" for only one side. That's why it would be fine to bring that damage via traits on specific conditions, you're forced to make a "choice" for it. 
I want proper balance and not "smash simulator", we already had it after HoT. Warrior doesn't have any Unique mechanics compared to other classes in long run and it's e-speces are just reskins at most. As master of Weapons, it should be one of the possibilities. They could become "punishers" for boon spammers via brute force, they burn cooldowns, but still deal damage and punish enemies for being cocky in their PvE benchmark rotations.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No. Warrior is in need of an overall buff, not another inappropriate tradeoff.

Only if you remove all of the telegraphs from the damage skills.

 

Sorry, not going to sell me on that one. 

Only reason you don't see more warriors (at least in WvW) is comps favor guardians and barley anyone roams.  The ones that do roam prove that warrior is actually in a pretty good place as it is; crazy CC, high mobility, heavy armor, gap closers, and great damage.  

I seriously need to know a matchup that warrior loses against.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

4 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

No, the moment you bring damage to CC skills without any kind of conditions to restrict them (dmg% changes are nono) you ask for perma CC bots, that's gameplay promoting toxicity. It should have value in fights, but shouldn't be "I smash I kill" brainlet "fun" for only one side. That's why it would be fine to bring that damage via traits on specific conditions, you're forced to make a "choice" for it. 
I want proper balance and not "smash simulator", we already had it after HoT. Warrior doesn't have any Unique mechanics compared to other classes in long run and it's e-speces are just reskins at most. As master of Weapons, it should be one of the possibilities. They could become "punishers" for boon spammers via brute force, they burn cooldowns, but still deal damage and punish enemies for being cocky in their PvE benchmark rotations.

Yeah I feel you

 

The smash simulator isn't fun until everyone is still smashing eachother but doing 0 damage in the process.

Good ol' safe, clean fun. 

If this is the future we fought for, then why does the date read 2009?

 

[draxynnic.3719]

The real problem with the 2020 patch is that it didn't take into account that unlike some professions, Warrior was always designed to be doing damage with the CC skills. The CC weapons like mace and hammer were therefore designed with the damage on CC skills being part of their power budget and were thus hit hard by the patch.

I don't think it's necessary to put the damage back on the CC skills directly, but there should definitely be more damage placed on the CC-oriented weapons so they have the opportunity to follow up. 

Which is hard to do with mace outside of simply buffing the autoattack, but with hammer they've got Fierce Blow and Hammer Shock to play with.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Sorry, not going to sell me on that one. 

Only reason you don't see more warriors (at least in WvW) is comps favor guardians and barley anyone roams.  The ones that do roam prove that warrior is actually in a pretty good place as it is; crazy CC, high mobility, heavy armor, gap closers, and great damage.  

I seriously need to know a matchup that warrior loses against.

Any decent thief.
Terrormancer that bothers to bring even one boon corrupt.
Reapers that know what they are doing (I kill warriors easily on my Reaper fwiw)
Good weavers will out play you completely.
Any good FB will out CC you and keep you locked and burn you to death.
Immob beast and Immob druid will burn through your CDs then keep you immobilized and bleed you out.
Nade Holo.
Mesmers that remember that their clones are for shatters.

I could go on. The point is that you getting your butt handed to you be a better duelist is not indicative of the class, and only that you lost to a better player.
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The real problem with the 2020 patch is that it didn't take into account that unlike some professions, Warrior was always designed to be doing damage with the CC skills. The CC weapons like mace and hammer were therefore designed with the damage on CC skills being part of their power budget and were thus hit hard by the patch.

I don't think it's necessary to put the damage back on the CC skills directly, but there should definitely be more damage placed on the CC-oriented weapons so they have the opportunity to follow up. 

Which is hard to do with mace outside of simply buffing the autoattack, but with hammer they've got Fierce Blow and Hammer Shock to play with.

They increased the Fierce Blow damage in PvE in that same patch, but didn't in competitive. FB can still hit hard on a full glass setup though, but one skill alone being decent doesn't make a weapon good.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They increased the Fierce Blow damage in PvE in that same patch, but didn't in competitive. FB can still hit hard on a full glass setup though, but one skill alone being decent doesn't make a weapon good.

Hence why I was suggesting buffing the damage on the other skills on the weapons generally, potentially including the autoattack. Hammer could have Fierce Blow as the skill you use the CC to set up for, but having a bit more damage on the autoattack chain and on Hammer Shock would also give it more potential for pressure in between, making the weapon as a whole stronger.

Point is, they probably can make the "no damage on hard CC skills in competitive" thing work, however unrealistic it might feel in some cases, but when half of a weapon's skills are hard CC, they need to compensate for that lost damage somewhere.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Hence why I was suggesting buffing the damage on the other skills on the weapons generally, potentially including the autoattack. Hammer could have Fierce Blow as the skill you use the CC to set up for, but having a bit more damage on the autoattack chain and on Hammer Shock would also give it more potential for pressure in between, making the weapon as a whole stronger.

Point is, they probably can make the "no damage on hard CC skills in competitive" thing work, however unrealistic it might feel in some cases, but when half of a weapon's skills are hard CC, they need to compensate for that lost damage somewhere.

IMHO Give Backbreaker ammo charges, then you could F1 -> FB -> BB -> FB ->HammerShock -> BB -> FB

[DemonCrypto.6792]

I don't get why cc don't have an dmg because on the other hand you have stab, resilience and utilitys who totaly negate cc.
With dmg at least cc would be like normal attacks and stab wouldn't make them just a hammer(or else) strike with 6 dmg

CC aren't game breaking in competitive now and with dmg they will just open new build , stab is the overpowered boons here that's all and it's ok , we just need  an equal  to it.
 

So making that cc does "some" dmg would make them worth using even when negated.

I get that their will be some tweaks to make it balanced but at least doing it will  open plays to weapons who are cc focused and to me making  most tools of a class viable is the best thing that anet can do for competitive health and future
 

[draxynnic.3719]

The logic is that big chains of CCs basically give the target no opportunity to react once the chain starts, unless they have a stunbreak that also protects them from the followup CC. Not every profession has access to such abilities, and some that do have had them nerfed so heavily that they're not worth taking unless you're absolutely sure you're going up against a heavy CC build or two (and sometimes not even then).

Obviously, YMMV on how much of a problem that was, and arguably a better approach might have been simply to improve the anti-CC measures of the professions that were suffering. But that was the logic.