You did not listen to ANY of the Catalyst Hammer feedback

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Play Catalyst and get back to us. Using just Catalyst skills (and utilities) try to stay at the 10 Elemental Empowerment consistently or even at all. Then pick just one attunement and stay in it and do the same, thats been a valid play style (staying in one attunement). It goes downhill from there unless this empowerment trait is just THAT GOOD that dare we try to even strive for the 10 max.

Hold on ... me playing Catalyst has NOTHING to do with people being dishonest about Anet not listening to feedback. Catalyst performance wasn't the problem I had with the post I was quoting there. 

And for the record ... I did play it. I played every class and every espec. I had no problem staying in one attunement. It's in fact the way I like to play Ele as much as possible. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... me playing Catalyst has NOTHING to do with people being dishonest about Anet not listening to feedback. Catalyst performance wasn't the problem I had with the post I was quoting there. 

And for the record ... I did play it. I played every class and every espec. I had no problem staying in one attunement. It's in fact the way I like to play Ele as much as possible. 

Considering that Hammer still is garbage melee weapon without proper leaps and defenses, traits are still garbage stat stick, F5 still exists, utilities are barely usable, then I'm pretty sure A-net hasn't listened to any feedback beside polishing animations here and there. Sorry, but nothing has changed from "golem benchmarking tool" with all these pages of feedback.

[Archer.4362]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Espera... que yo juegue Catalyst no tiene NADA que ver con que la gente sea deshonesta acerca de que Anet no escucha los comentarios. El rendimiento del catalizador no fue el problema que tuve con la publicación que estaba citando allí. 

Y para que conste... lo toqué. Jugué todas las clases y todas las especificaciones. No tuve ningún problema en quedarme en una sintonización. De hecho, es la forma en que me gusta jugar a Ele tanto como sea posible. 

go to the post about the beta and 95% of the comments are negative about them. It means that they took the remaining 5% to say that we left it as it is, that we have done well, that is what ANET has thought.

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Considering that Hammer still is garbage melee weapon without proper leaps and defenses, traits are still garbage stat stick, F5 still exists, utilities are barely usable, then I'm pretty sure A-net hasn't listened to any feedback beside polishing animations here and there. Sorry, but nothing has changed from "golem benchmarking tool" with all these pages of feedback.

You can see what feedback Anet has listened to ... so no reason to speculate. If they 'ignored' some of it ... there is a reason. Maybe it's time some people start thinking about the reasons. I can already anticipate it's because lots of the feedback was hot garbage. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shadowflare.2759]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can see what feedback Anet has listened to ... so no reason to speculate. If they 'ignored' some of it ... there is a reason. Maybe it's time some people start thinking about the reasons. I can already anticipate it's because lots of the feedback was hot garbage. 

More like the feedback really comes down to "This whole thing has fundamental design flaws", and the devs decided that they don't have the time to fix it properly so just released their crappy vision instead even if they recognize the problem.

And maybe there's a ton of "sunk cost" thinking where they probably hacked their code to force the hammer 3 skills to be able to retain state beyond its own attunement and didn't want to just give it up.

You're right that there's potentially reasons why feedback wasn't implemented in the release, but it's most likely compromise to meet the deadline than "sticking to their vision".

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Shadowflare.2759 said:

More like the feedback really comes down to "This whole thing has fundamental design flaws", and the devs decided that they don't have the time to fix it properly so just released their crappy vision instead even if they recognize the problem.

And maybe there's a ton of "sunk cost" thinking where they probably hacked their code to force the hammer 3 skills to be able to retain state beyond its own attunement and didn't want to just give it up.

You're right that there's potentially reasons why feedback wasn't implemented in the release, but it's most likely compromise to meet the deadline than "sticking to their vision".

If that's the case then ... they are going to fix it because it's not like there is a deadline here. We still seeing changes to core after 9 years. This is just the nature of MMO's. The fact is that Catalyst is still a minimum viable product, so knowing they could make changes to it after release means they don't have to achieve some player-established standard for how it works. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

Everyone agreed the Hammer had major issues, even the golem beaters.  None of these were addressed.

On top of this, the traits were left as the uninspired stat boost rubbish they started as, and the so-called Augments stayed as copies of other abilities.  The Elite also kept the ridiculous 90 second cooldown it had when it was a different ability.

Anet did not even TRY.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Avatara.1042

[Avatara.1042]

The entire Catalyst mechanic is also a combo field which ticks for THREE damage and has a 15 second cooldown in PvP/WvW.

[Bunny.9834]

Here's the trick to using Hammer for Catalyst..... DONT. 

Dagger/Dagger Fresh Air Catalyst on the other hand.... will be the new meta. 

[Loopgru.1026]

I was really, really surprised to see that there were no functional changes made after beta 4- based on all the feedback I was certain they'd tweak it.

As it stands, hammer has a massive amount of its budgeted power tied into a skill that requires a) maintaining a very specific melee range and b) rotating rapidly and in an inflexible manner through attunements. Neither of those requirements lend themselves to PvP, WvW, or solo play, and it's honestly a huge disadvantage in group PvE as well.

For my nickel, it's also just not *fun*. You are punished in terms of a substantial DPS loss if you use your skills or attunements tactically and intentionally instead of just rushing from one attunement to the next. You get forced to pick one skill from each attunement to use before rotating out of it again instead of rewarding knowledge and utilization of the full toolkit.

I really hope they revise it heavily.

[Puck.3697]

On 3/1/2022 at 5:25 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Weird people are saying this. So are they now making specs just for certain content?

Because they were suppose to be making specs to play the class in a different way, yet still be viable for any content.

 

Not exactly a good selling point for new specs. Sorry this spec is only good for open world pve! wait until next expansion for another spec for your class! maybe it'll be for pvp! or maybe it'll be for raid! who knows! find out in 4 years!

😬

 

 

It's not weird, or effecting sales. 

Every game based on multiple choice / specc class systems have this same exact problem. When you stick a load of flavours into one specc. One will win out in the type of content you want to do. 

This concept of "balanced different options how to play my proffession" is not true it's called "the illusion of choice" in a game where meta is potent there are strict winners and losers and not every playstyle will fit every role. 

I doubt catalyst is better then weaver in open world with Weavers cele buildsz but as far as I know in all group and Raid PvE content it's better then weaver. 

[Xenesis.6389]

Not affecting sales? I guess we'll see...

 

 

If they don't want to change metas and sell a bunch of pve flavor specs that's up to them. I'm kinda glad they made specs that are mostly for pve, or aren't op, don't look fun for the most part, or won't change metas, left me with no reason to buy the expansion, no reason to switch from my scrapper/dh/scourge/chrono mains. 0 sale, 2 accounts. Guess we'll see what they do in the summer when they finally decide to look at class balance again.

[Flori.2194]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:50 AM, Avatara.1042 said:

You did not listen to ANY of the Catalyst Hammer feedback

I mean they clearly don't care for the feedback in the first place, there is no communication why they ignored the feedback we provided for 6 months. They didn't even felt the need to state some of the minor changes they made in the patch notes...

 

The good thing on the other hand is that this shows that they don't read the forum or otherwise they would be very upset about threads like this. 🥲

[Serephen.3420]

5 hours ago, Flori.2194 said:

I mean they clearly don't care for the feedback in the first place, there is no communication why they ignored the feedback we provided for 6 months. They didn't even felt the need to state some of the minor changes they made in the patch notes...

 

The good thing on the other hand is that this shows that they don't read the forum or otherwise they would be very upset about threads like this. 🥲

The response they made in the live stream regarding jade bots shows that they do read the forums. But it's always easier to assume the worst in any situation.

That said, just because threads and comments are made that they'll make those exact changes if at all. Nor does that mean they will do so immediately. I've made suggestions myself in the past that never came to pass. They'll have to decide based on all the data, feedback and other information they have access to about what to do andbwhat can be done in the end.

The big patch is meant to be out this summer. So we can see what happens then.

I'm still hoping for a change to hammer 3, some of the traits and augments. But I accept that my own ideas might not be the ones that make it into whatever they change.

[Avatara.1042]

They need to do constant patching, not leave things rubbish for months and years.

'They might fix it in 4 months' is ridiculous, especially for an expansion elite spec.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Avatara.1042

[The Boz.2038]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:44 AM, DragonSlayer.1087 said:

Here's the trick to using Hammer for Catalyst..... DONT. 

Dagger/Dagger Fresh Air Catalyst on the other hand.... will be the new meta. 

What is it you get out of Catalyst that makes DDFA better than on.... any other Ele?

[ScottBroChill.3254]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

What is it you get out of Catalyst that makes DDFA better than on.... any other Ele?

You have the possibility of self provided quickness and way more access to shocking aura through combos and a higher innate tankiness. Also stability access outside of earth attunement. Don't know if that makes it any better, but it provides something a bit different. 

[Flori.2194]

7 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

That said, just because threads and comments are made that they'll make those exact changes if at all. Nor does that mean they will do so immediately.

But time has already proven that most of the feedback after the last beta is still justified: Augments are terrible, Hammer 3 cripples it, the trailines are still uninspired and rather belong to tempest or weaver, there is no need for F5, the mechanic could be on F1-F4 etc. etc.

Just to remind you: They didn't change anything after the last beta phase although they promised significant changes. We were the beta testers because they lack the manpower to test it themselves and now we don't even get to know WHY they didn't listen or chose to ignore the feedback.

 

And to your "immediately" statement: They should pump out a lot more balance patches, like every few weeks... It's a shame that they decided to balance once a year and don't care for the things they created... 

[The Boz.2038]

21 minutes ago, Flori.2194 said:

there is no need for F5, the mechanic could be on F1-F4 etc. etc.

Come to think of it, they... easily could have done the opposite of Tempest here. Where Tempest has a huge overcharge cooldown and potentially locks you out of the attunement, they could have had this one lock you *into* the attunement by putting the others on a 6-10s cooldown instead. Then you could end your hammer 3 chain combo with the element you like the most, lay down that field, and wait in it/move to another to start a new chain combo. All without a clunky F5 or pixel-width energy bar.

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, Flori.2194 said:

But time has already proven that most of the feedback after the last beta is still justified: Augments are terrible, Hammer 3 cripples it, the trailines are still uninspired and rather belong to tempest or weaver, there is no need for F5, the mechanic could be on F1-F4 etc. etc.

Just to remind you: They didn't change anything after the last beta phase although they promised significant changes. We were the beta testers because they lack the manpower to test it themselves and now we don't even get to know WHY they didn't listen or chose to ignore the feedback.

 

And to your "immediately" statement: They should pump out a lot more balance patches, like every few weeks... It's a shame that they decided to balance once a year and don't care for the things they created... 

So you think 1 week is enough time to prove the worst of the worst feedback is still justified? That's pretty funny. THey are still patching bugs ... and you think we should be getting biweekly class changes already? More pretty funny stuff.

People that think like you should be asking themselves WHY the feedback wasn't listened to, objectively. Probably has ALOT to do with unreasonable expectations based on what you are saying here. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Tseison.4659]

8 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

The response they made in the live stream regarding jade bots shows that they do read the forums. But it's always easier to assume the worst in any situation.

That said, just because threads and comments are made that they'll make those exact changes if at all. Nor does that mean they will do so immediately. I've made suggestions myself in the past that never came to pass. They'll have to decide based on all the data, feedback and other information they have access to about what to do andbwhat can be done in the end.

The big patch is meant to be out this summer. So we can see what happens then.

I'm still hoping for a change to hammer 3, some of the traits and augments. But I accept that my own ideas might not be the ones that make it into whatever they change.

I agree with a bit of this response since I too got a reply on their livestream prior to Beta 4 in regards to changes to the Virtuoso and other elite specs and they said they made “small changes.” Yes I will “agree” that they do discreetly acknowledge some feedback but I really think they just pick and choose based on the amount of time they have to dedicate to such changes. 

Which in my opinion I feel all of the elite specs aren’t worth picking over the others from HoT and PoF and don’t really bring anything fresh and unique. Atleast from when I’m reading about each one, myself and others I’m sure will ask “why would I take this elite over another?”

But anyways, I can say they somewhat listen to feedback but also ignore the right ones and I don’t think Anet really knows the classes and elites they push out better than the players who main them 🤷‍♂️ and know what they NEED.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

I agree with a bit of this response since I too got a reply on their livestream prior to Beta 4 in regards to changes to the Virtuoso and other elite specs and they said they made “small changes.” Yes I will “agree” that they do discreetly acknowledge some feedback but I really think they just pick and choose based on the amount of time they have to dedicate to such changes. 

Which in my opinion I feel all of the elite specs aren’t worth picking over the others from HoT and PoF and don’t really bring anything fresh and unique. Atleast from when I’m reading about each one, myself and others I’m sure will ask “why would I take this elite over another?”

But anyways, I can say they somewhat listen to feedback but also ignore the right ones and I don’t think Anet really knows the classes and elites they push out better than the players who main them 🤷‍♂️ and know what they NEED.

That's where your thinking goes wrong. These especs aren't about giving classes what player think they need. It's about having the concepts that Anet want. See, what is happening here is that people gave LOTS of feedback that had no relevance to the concept Anet wants. So, they aren't ignoring people, they just aren't making the changes people want because the feedback wasn't relevant to the concept. The beta wasn't an exercise in a joint cooperation in class development. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Flori.2194]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you think 1 week is enough time to prove the worst of the worst feedback is still justified? That's pretty funny. THey are still patching bugs ... and you think we should be getting biweekly class changes already? More pretty funny stuff.

People that think like you should be asking themselves WHY the feedback wasn't listened to, objectively. Probably has ALOT to do with unreasonable expectations based on what you are saying here. 

Dude, nobody takes you serious any more, you are a known forum troll...

[Tseison.4659]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's where your thinking goes wrong. These especs aren't about giving classes what player think they need. It's about having the concepts that Anet want. See, what is happening here is that people gave LOTS of feedback that had no relevance to the concept Anet wants. So, they aren't ignoring people, they just aren't making the changes people want because the feedback wasn't relevant to the concept. The beta wasn't an exercise in a joint cooperation in class development. 

Hey Karen. So I'm gonna stop you right at the part when you said our feedback had no relevance to their concept because myself being one of those RELEVANT players, we gave constructive feedback throughout the entire Beta week from Betas 1-4  based on whatever profession(s) we mained. Anet handed us these especs, they asked us to test them out and provide feedback and feedback for bugs. We wrote PAGES of feedback AND bug related issues and after all of our collective experiences, only a small portion or barely any changes at all were made and yet they still feel incomplete.

Only going to use Virtuoso as an example since Mesmer is all I mained, but their "concept" is Illusions/Clones = Blades and STILL there's traits (including empowered illusions) that are not affecting Blades as THEY intended it to. Is it an oversight or are they just contradicting themselves because to myself and others it just feels that not even they know what they want their elite specs to do and just wanted to rush their production.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Tseison.4659 said:

their "concept" is Illusions/Clones = Blades and STILL there's traits (including empowered illusions) that are not affecting Blades as THEY intended it to. Is it an oversight or are they just contradicting themselves

No, no, see, ANet wants it not to work, even if they say otherwise. This is their vision. You must respect it, and feel powerless before it.

/s