Bubble's true identity [SPOILER Discussion]

[EdwinLi.1284]

SPOILER BELOW! You are warned.

------------------------------------------------------------------

So we finally discover who the Mother of all Elder Dragons are and their origins. Bubbles who we once believed to be jsut another Elder Dragon is actually the Mother of all Elder Dragons and the first Elder Dragon named Soo-Won. 

She has also been confirmed to be in Cantha this whole time. 

This confirms and deconfirms past theories the community had about Soo-Won.

I am curious where this will lead later after EoD in the next LW.

So what about you all? What are your opinions currently based on how far you have progressed?

Edited March 1, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[yefluke.3168]

Please spoil me more about the  story.

 

did we kill her or she will be address later in LW? 
how’s kunavang? Is she relate to soo won at all?

[Teratus.2859]

Honestly i'm mixed on it.

A lot of us speculated the entity Aurine were talking to was the Sea Dragon, guess we were right but some even predicted that the Sea Dragon and Mother were the same being and they were also right regardless of how little it actually made sense.

A lot if it feels like Anet wrote itself into a corner tbh, not because they didn't have better ideas but more that they simply didn't have time to do another Dragon story after EoD which is all about Mother.
They want to end the Elder Dragon story with End of Dragons so the simplest option is to just make Mother and Sea Dragon the same being and go from there.

We didn't have much lore around the Sea Dragon but what lore we did have confirms or stronly implies that the dragon is hostile just like the others, aggressive water tentacle creatures, displacing depth dwelling species.. attacking Canthan sailers etc.
And now we're expected to believe it's benevolent and cares about Canthans?.. I'm not buying it tbh.

I will admit that I am still very early in the story so kitten could absolutely hit the fan over the next 4 maps and all the new info I have about the Sea Dragon could be lies but as of right now that's my take lol

Edited March 1, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[maxwelgm.4315]

7 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Honestly i'm mixed on it.

A lot of us speculated the entity Aurine were talking to was the Sea Dragon, guess we were right but some even predicted that the Sea Dragon and Mother were the same being and they were also right regardless of how little it actually made sense.

A lot if it feels like Anet wrote itself into a corner tbh, not because they didn't have better ideas but more that they simply didn't have time to do another Dragon story after EoD which is all about Mother.
They want to end the Elder Dragon story with End of Dragons so the simplest option is to just make Mother and Sea Dragon the same being and go from there.

We didn't have much lore around the Sea Dragon but what lore we did have confirms or stronly implies that the dragon is hostile just like the others, aggressive water tentacle creatures, displacing depth dwelling species.. attacking Canthan sailers etc.
And now we're expected to believe it's benevolent and cares about Canthans?.. I'm not buying it tbh.

I will admit that I am still very early in the story so kitten could absolutely hit the fan over the next 4 maps and all the new info I have about the Sea Dragon could be lies but as of right now that's my take lol

I will have to play through again because I kind of rushed it to see if it ended on a cliffhanger lol. But if I had to describe the feeling of the story beats they develop, closure is the absolute best word to do it. You get several ending post credits dialogues and practically everything related to the Elder Dragon plot gets sort of resolved.

 

Also the Elder Dragons were never aggressive per se. They play with the concept of "Dragonvoid" which is some kind of primordial force that drove the dragons mad from all wild magic they absorb throughout countless cycles - and is also something ever present from the Mists, surrounding Tyria and trying to engulf it. In the same vein of the flavour text you get from the legendary trinkets collections, Dragonvoid is a literal coalescence or even amalgamate of pure volatile magic, and during the last chapter it assumes a life of its own. Not worth going through details since I have to play again carefully myself but in the end Aurene is OK, a new cycle is implied to start rather than ending the cycles (or did I read this wrong? kitten I went by fast), and the one thing I'm certain of is that it's implied the "Void" remains a threat if only put to rest for now.

[ugrakarma.9416]

2 hours ago, yefluke.3168 said:

Please spoil me more about the  story.

 

did we kill her or she will be address later in LW? 
how’s kunavang? Is she relate to soo won at all?

kunavang is her "adopted" champion, her 'commander'.

i didn't finished history to say the rest.

[ugrakarma.9416]

About the "void" is something a bit common plot, the "dark energy that drive ppl mad" from nowhere plot: shurato(dark soma) / street fighter(evil hadou "energy") /Avatar and others.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[EdwinLi.1284]

54 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I will have to play through again because I kind of rushed it to see if it ended on a cliffhanger lol. But if I had to describe the feeling of the story beats they develop, closure is the absolute best word to do it. You get several ending post credits dialogues and practically everything related to the Elder Dragon plot gets sort of resolved.

 

Also the Elder Dragons were never aggressive per se. They play with the concept of "Dragonvoid" which is some kind of primordial force that drove the dragons mad from all wild magic they absorb throughout countless cycles - and is also something ever present from the Mists, surrounding Tyria and trying to engulf it. In the same vein of the flavour text you get from the legendary trinkets collections, Dragonvoid is a literal coalescence or even amalgamate of pure volatile magic, and during the last chapter it assumes a life of its own. Not worth going through details since I have to play again carefully myself but in the end Aurene is OK, a new cycle is implied to start rather than ending the cycles (or did I read this wrong? kitten I went by fast), and the one thing I'm certain of is that it's implied the "Void" remains a threat if only put to rest for now.

It is rather concerning and interesting concept if Anet plans to have the Void becoming the new antagonist for the new storyline after the Elder Dragon storyline or just end it here and focus on a new antagonists for a clean slate storyline.

We know they plan to continue the story of GW2 but where is hard to tell now.

With the Void being the chaotic nature of existence that was only contained because of the Elder Dragon cycle, there is always a chance for it to return. However, the new cycle created basically made certain the world is safe from the Void for maybe another thousands of years until Aurene has to create a new cycle or refreash the cycle again so that she does not end up like the Elder Dragons did which is becoming corrupted by the Void resulting becoming the destructive nature they are in GW2.

Edited March 1, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[vectorfox.6894]

The story went by so fast i kind of don't want to write any criticisms i have because of how difficult of a task it must of been to wrap so many plots up.

 

But if i had to comment i would just say it felt a bit empty, i know magic itself taking on a form and sentience was revealed with the anomalies but to be the final boss feels underwhelming. I would of especially liked more positive time with an aged elder dragon but then leaving such an old character alive means everyone is disappointed when we don't spend episodes just asking for lore dumps about everything the dragon knows. Also as mentioned above the void is such a eh concept, it doesn't have an interesting background and is just a formless evil, i actually liked the elder dragons being some end game threat at least until we started hyper focusing on them as a story and just steamrolling them.

 

Hopefully the next story comes quickly so i can forget this story ever happened, my sympathies go to DSD in that final scene.

[TheBuragi.5867]

The story itself wasn't bad, but I am pretty salty they basically retconned the whole "big tentacled horrors made out of water". Even during the fight with her, they could've had Soo Won create water minions, instead it was just reskins of the other 5 dragon's minions.

[maxwelgm.4315]

28 minutes ago, TheBuragi.5867 said:

The story itself wasn't bad, but I am pretty salty they basically retconned the whole "big tentacled horrors made out of water". Even during the fight with her, they could've had Soo Won create water minions, instead it was just reskins of the other 5 dragon's minions.

Gotta agree very hard on that one. No sign of whatever it was that every single deep sea species reported and caused entire civilizations like the Krait be forced to run away. It's even mentioned Aetherblades actually were the ones to tip her scales and cause her to go mad for good? How then and why did all the water races and especially the unapologetically demonic Krait leave their homes to build makeshift towers on mainland?

 

One way I could see to salvage this is if something else actually started lurking in the deep sea and the Inquest and the water races actually got it mistaken for an Elder Dragon due to the cataclysmic mess it caused. EDs are far from the only massive beings hinted at existing within the GW multiverse and another one stirring simultaneously to the release of magic that awakened Bubbles and/or Zhaitan is not far-fetched. But unfortunately this is just me going through hoops to justify their rushing it and soft retconning/ignoring previous plot beats, which is not surprising at all and probably what happened.

[TheBuragi.5867]

8 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Gotta agree very hard on that one. No sign of whatever it was that every single deep sea species reported and caused entire civilizations like the Krait be forced to run away. It's even mentioned Aetherblades actually were the ones to tip her scales and cause her to go mad for good? How then and why did all the water races and especially the unapologetically demonic Krait leave their homes to build makeshift towers on mainland?

 

One way I could see to salvage this is if something else actually started lurking in the deep sea and the Inquest and the water races actually got it mistaken for an Elder Dragon due to the cataclysmic mess it caused. EDs are far from the only massive beings hinted at existing within the GW multiverse and another one stirring simultaneously to the release of magic that awakened Bubbles and/or Zhaitan is not far-fetched. But unfortunately this is just me going through hoops to justify their rushing it and soft retconning/ignoring previous plot beats, which is not surprising at all and probably what happened.

That's actually what ANet is probably doing. In Joon's mansion there's a plaque in front of a small Leviathan skeleton that claims that deep aquatic horrors have started appearing since Soo Won became the guardian of Cantha.

Still, such a retcon leaves a bitter taste, especially for those of us who were excited to see DSD as a Lovecraftian monstrosity spawning evil dragon.

[Teratus.2859]

1 hour ago, TheBuragi.5867 said:

That's actually what ANet is probably doing. In Joon's mansion there's a plaque in front of a small Leviathan skeleton that claims that deep aquatic horrors have started appearing since Soo Won became the guardian of Cantha.

Still, such a retcon leaves a bitter taste, especially for those of us who were excited to see DSD as a Lovecraftian monstrosity spawning evil dragon.

Yeah, although if this is something Anet plan on addressing in future content and passing off those events to another massive and downright evil creature then that opens up some fun doors to play around with.

For me one of the bigger things I want to explore after End of Dragons is Demons.
Most Demons in the franchise are mist creatures, but Gw1 factions introduced The Deep, which also had a mysterious Demon that to this day we do not know where the hell it came from.

Kanaxai's existence leaves the door open for entire species of subterrain Demons to possibly exist in the depths of the world.. even deeper than any subterrain species we know of like Asura and Skritt have ever actually gone.

I don't think it's particularly unbelievable to have the actions of the Elder Dragons over the years since their awakening act as a trigger to disturb these Demonic creatures.
They could have been fighting Dragon Minions from the other side this whole time and we simply never knew they were down there.
And now since the Dragons are gone, the biggest barriers that were preventing the Demons from coming into contact with the surface races is also gone.

I could absolutely see a storyline being possible that is based around the Dwarves hunting down what remains of Primordus's Destroyers in the Depths of the world and discovering Demons down there who would pursue them closer to the surface now that Destroyers are no longer around to contain them in the Depths.

I could also believe a story that somewhere in the depths of the ocean a similar thing happened, a crack in the ocean floor resulting in Demons being released into the deep ocean.

I would love to see stories like that in Gw2.
Not to mention it would open the doors for Deep Sea locations as well as Depths of Tyria locations for us to explore which are two places I really want to go adventuring in.

Also Submarine Mastery plz 😄 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[TheBuragi.5867]

19 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yeah, although if this is something Anet plan on addressing in future content and passing off those events to another massive and downright evil creature then that opens up some fun doors to play around with.

For me one of the bigger things I want to explore after End of Dragons is Demons.
Most Demons in the franchise are mist creatures, but Gw1 factions introduced The Deep, which also had a mysterious Demon that to this day we do not know where the hell it came from.

Kanaxai's existence leaves the door open for entire species of subterrain Demons to possibly exist in the depths of the world.. even deeper than any subterrain species we know of like Asura and Skritt have ever actually gone.

I don't think it's particularly unbelievable to have the actions of the Elder Dragons over the years since their awakening act as a trigger to disturb these Demonic creatures.
They could have been fighting Dragon Minions from the other side this whole time and we simply never knew they were down there.
And now since the Dragons are gone, the biggest barriers that were preventing the Demons from coming into contact with the surface races is also gone.

I could absolutely see a storyline being possible that is based around the Dwarves hunting down what remains of Primordus's Destroyers in the Depths of the world and discovering Demons down there who would pursue them closer to the surface now that Destroyers are no longer around to contain them in the Depths.

I could also believe a story that somewhere in the depths of the ocean a similar thing happened, a crack in the ocean floor resulting in Demons being released into the deep ocean.

I would love to see stories like that in Gw2.
Not to mention it would open the doors for Deep Sea locations as well as Depths of Tyria locations for us to explore which are two places I really want to go adventuring in.

Also Submarine Mastery plz 😄 

IIRC, the original plot idea for GW2 was angels and demons duking it out on Tyria, so demons are very much possible and it would be interesting to see.

[EdwinLi.1284]

With Mai Trin's revenant legend being Scarlet, this does open up the possibility of Scarlet being a future legend for Revenant Elite Spec maybe as the Rifle Elite Spec.

This may also be a interesting possible Legend because this one actually has a history with the Commander.

[Caitybee.3614]

12 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Honestly i'm mixed on it.

A lot of us speculated the entity Aurine were talking to was the Sea Dragon, guess we were right but some even predicted that the Sea Dragon and Mother were the same being and they were also right regardless of how little it actually made sense.

A lot if it feels like Anet wrote itself into a corner tbh, not because they didn't have better ideas but more that they simply didn't have time to do another Dragon story after EoD which is all about Mother.
They want to end the Elder Dragon story with End of Dragons so the simplest option is to just make Mother and Sea Dragon the same being and go from there.

We didn't have much lore around the Sea Dragon but what lore we did have confirms or stronly implies that the dragon is hostile just like the others, aggressive water tentacle creatures, displacing depth dwelling species.. attacking Canthan sailers etc.
And now we're expected to believe it's benevolent and cares about Canthans?.. I'm not buying it tbh.

I will admit that I am still very early in the story so kitten could absolutely hit the fan over the next 4 maps and all the new info I have about the Sea Dragon could be lies but as of right now that's my take lol

 

I just finished the entire story and I must say, it completely feels like the ending of Guild Wars 2. Like for now there is no plan of a further story continuation unless it comes in Guild Wars 3 if they plan to make one. For now though, it ends perfectly, everything balanced among the Dragons. Unless they take the story an entirely different route and don't focus on any dragons in the future.

[EdwinLi.1284]

1 hour ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

 

I just finished the entire story and I must say, it completely feels like the ending of Guild Wars 2. Like for now there is no plan of a further story continuation unless it comes in Guild Wars 3 if they plan to make one. For now though, it ends perfectly, everything balanced among the Dragons. Unless they take the story an entirely different route and don't focus on any dragons in the future.

they did say they will continue GW2 storyline after the Elder Dragon saga ends so there is more in the future. However, we just don't know where the new storyline will lead to due to being a new clean slate for Anet in the storyline so for now we just wait until the next Living World begins to see what is maybe the Prologue for the new Storyline.

Edited March 2, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[Zola.6197]

11 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Gotta agree very hard on that one. No sign of whatever it was that every single deep sea species reported and caused entire civilizations like the Krait be forced to run away. It's even mentioned Aetherblades actually were the ones to tip her scales and cause her to go mad for good? How then and why did all the water races and especially the unapologetically demonic Krait leave their homes to build makeshift towers on mainland?

 

One way I could see to salvage this is if something else actually started lurking in the deep sea and the Inquest and the water races actually got it mistaken for an Elder Dragon due to the cataclysmic mess it caused. EDs are far from the only massive beings hinted at existing within the GW multiverse and another one stirring simultaneously to the release of magic that awakened Bubbles and/or Zhaitan is not far-fetched. But unfortunately this is just me going through hoops to justify their rushing it and soft retconning/ignoring previous plot beats, which is not surprising at all and probably what happened.

 

Yeah that's what I keep coming back to. While I did enjoy the story quite a bit, though mostly for the "ground level" character work, Soo-Won felt very convenient. I have nothing against the idea of another benevolent elder dragon, but... all signs pointed to the sea dragon being an antagonist. I was waiting for the story to confirm that Soo-Won somehow separated herself from The Void magic, and the "void dragon" was the creature that "actually" forced all the aquatic races from their homes.

 

The fact we never get to see Soo-Won's dragon minions... It's just a huge bummer. While there were SO MANY WONDERFUL THINGS about this expansion, the treatment of our final elder dragon was a disappointment. All the mystery and build up surrounding the DSD was absolutely abandoned. That really saddens me. No new models devoted to elder dragon minions, just reskins of things we've seen before. Honestly, I would've been happy to see the "water sprays" we fought in Taimi's simulation in S3 again. Even if they were benevolent and helping us, it would've been something.

 

That said, I did like Soo-Won outside of my expectations for the DSD. As far as I'm concerned they're two different characters. Her design was stunning, and the voice acting was great.

 

There is a largos in Seitung that is involved with the Leviathan meta. Maybe that's set up for some new creature that can take credit from what we "thought" the sea dragon was?

 

Edit: The final map meta was pretty cool though. At least we got a neat fight.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Zola.6197

[Tyson.5160]

They also explained about the blue orb in one of the hearts in New Kaineng…

[vectorfox.6894]

3 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

They also explained about the blue orb in one of the hearts in New Kaineng…

Oh would you be able to share the explanation of it? at work for quite a few more hours so cant check it out right now.

[Teratus.2859]

7 hours ago, TheBuragi.5867 said:

IIRC, the original plot idea for GW2 was angels and demons duking it out on Tyria, so demons are very much possible and it would be interesting to see.

I agree, especially if they avoid mist based Demons.
Gw1 had some story content around Demons but virtually all of it was based on Demons from the mists.
Virtually every single Demon in Gw1 came from the mists and had to be summoned into the world by some means, most often by a portal to the Underworld or Domain of Anguish or some other mist based demon realm.

Cantha however is quite unique since it is the main place in the entire franchise that features Demons on Tyria who's origins are a complete mystery, the only other known exception is Deimos whom is still a lot more fleshed out than those of Canthan origin but who's specific originals are still classed as unclear.

This also plays a big part in why I want to explore Demons in future content as well.
The potential for Demon realms to exist outside of the mists in the deepest parts of the world gets me quite excited.
In Gw2 with exception to Deimos as mentioned above, every Demon we have encountered in the game has been mists based.. even the more common Imp's and Fleshreavers.

So personally I think Demons have a lot of potential yet to be tapped in Gw2.
Especially non mists based Demons which are among the rarest types of creatures in the franchise, even more rare than Dragons.
It'll also be nice to actually have content based around Demons being an actual persistent and natural threat rather than powerful war beasts serving the agenda of some wannabe tyrant as they have been in the past.

[Teratus.2859]

4 hours ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

 

I just finished the entire story and I must say, it completely feels like the ending of Guild Wars 2. Like for now there is no plan of a further story continuation unless it comes in Guild Wars 3 if they plan to make one. For now though, it ends perfectly, everything balanced among the Dragons. Unless they take the story an entirely different route and don't focus on any dragons in the future.

Guess I'll see it when I get there 🙂 

We know Gw2 isn''t ending with EOD though so there will be more story, possibly more expansions coming to the game before any strong consideration is put towards making a whole new game.

Anet would not be putting so much time and effort into things like WvW alliances and upgrading the game to DX11 if they were planning on ending the game anytime soon.
This game probably has a good few years left in it if you ask me.. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Gw2 is still getting new story content 5 years from now.

[Bast.7253]

Did it say what her domains were? Or just water? And nothing else? And then she just decided to spawn children and split other energy?

Yeah, they kept talking about how the stories have led up to this or something but it really just feels like it was made up on the fly to resolve the plot. I mean I'm not saying I hate it and it opens up possibilities for new story beats but it did feel a little out of left field. 

So in the beginning there was just... "dragon magic" and "void" and nothing else? And she just... materialized out of thin air as a very specific looking dragon? Does this completely discount the idea of Koda? 

The chat with Aurene at the end saying that we would both sense any influxes of magic seemed like foreshadowing for the gods' arrival to me. Or just some magic entity that causes alarm. Then there's Joon and whatever power source they decide to seek out for batteries if that plot continues. 

[vectorfox.6894]

7 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

Yeah, they kept talking about how the stories have led up to this or something but it really just feels like it was made up on the fly to resolve the plot. I mean I'm not saying I hate it and it opens up possibilities for new story beats but it did feel a little out of left field. 

So in the beginning there was just... "dragon magic" and "void" and nothing else? And she just... materialized out of thin air as a very specific looking dragon? Does this completely discount the idea of Koda? 
 

I get these feelings too, it does feel made up on the spot and even though they did a decent job tying everything up it doesn't feel right.
The magic comments were odd, i assume there was originally just void? As a person that likes to visualize scenarios i find it hard to understand what was truly meant, like do they mean deep space or tyria was like it is but filled with void magic flowing everywhere? But hey if they choose to they will never have to explain it since the only person who knew is gone.

 

Honestly one of the biggest losses in my opinion is how the more ancient characters that are gone then so to are the opportunities about learning tyrias past, now i know thats a personal preference since ive always found ancient lore far more interesting than new lore because its easy when going forward to just make everything a bigger and lose sight of more grounded concepts.

[Tyson.5160]

4 hours ago, vectorfox.6894 said:

Oh would you be able to share the explanation of it? at work for quite a few more hours so cant check it out right now.

At work unfortunately, it’s the most eastern heart in New Kaineng, talk to the heart vendor and ask about the shrines. They said they put in like the ocean tear or dragon something, which makes the Commander respond with getting the blue orb from the Krait and the vendor not knowing what the krait are.

[TheBuragi.5867]

I just remembered that the devs brought up the tentacled horrors again fairly recently after Primordus' and Jormag's deaths, during Dragon Bash some norn brings it up in a conversation. Which makes their absence and the benevolence of Soo Won even more odd, given at that time they were already working on the expansion.