Bubble's true identity [SPOILER Discussion]

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Only just finished the story myself and I'm still working through it mentally but I do find the whole making the DSD both the mother of the dragons and benevolent to be kinda cheap.  I too wanted to see a Lovecraftian Horror for an Elder Dragon and I would have also liked the explanation for what the EDs even exist to be, I dunno, more substantial.  Going Super Saiyan in the last fight was kinda fun, though.

[vectorfox.6894]

11 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Going Super Saiyan in the last fight was kinda fun, though.

One of the few moments i loved this story, the idea that we were mirroring the other elder dragons by becoming a champion was awesome because to anyone who isn't in the know it looks pretty scary that you have this new elder dragon and its 'champion' just walking around like a possible ticking time bomb, all i was waiting on was moment Aurene actually made it proper and empowered us.

Agreed on the cheapness too.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

I genuinely enjoyed the story for what it is, however I do agree that's a literal deep plot hole ANet needs to fill regarding the deep sea horror that was mentioned in the past. I can theorize that it's either Soo-Won corrupted with the Dragonvoid (like we see in the Meta Event) before she was able to endure its effects long enough for her to find Joon, or it's possible it was something like the Jade Maw instead. 

With that said though, I finally get what Omad's Machine was portraying when we went inside it in LWS2, it portrays all 6 Elder Dragons balancing the ebb and flow of Void Magic in Tyria, since each Elder Dragon represents an order of reality from the chaos made by the Void. I think they did a great job of portraying how Omad's Machine works in a literal sense when we got to fight it in the final encounter with all 7 Hearts of the Dragons. The Central Dragonvoid as the core with 6 Dragon Hearts converting and releasing the chaos into something stable, something with order. 

I'll probably redo the story again and see if there's any other bits and pieces that I missed regarding the lore but I will admit that plot holes are definitely here and there and ANet needs to address them somehow, or at least state that they've been covered in the game through other means. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I genuinely enjoyed the story for what it is, however I do agree that's a literal deep plot hole ANet needs to fill regarding the deep sea horror that was mentioned in the past. I can theorize that it's either Soo-Won corrupted with the Dragonvoid (like we see in the Meta Event) before she was able to endure its effects long enough for her to find Joon, or it's possible it was something like the Jade Maw instead. 

With that said though, I finally get what Omad's Machine was portraying when we went inside it in LWS2, it portrays all 6 Elder Dragons balancing the ebb and flow of Void Magic in Tyria, since each Elder Dragon represents an order of reality from the chaos made by the Void. I think they did a great job of portraying how Omad's Machine works in a literal sense when we got to fight it in the final encounter with all 7 Hearts of the Dragons. The Central Dragonvoid as the core with 6 Dragon Hearts converting and releasing the chaos into something stable, something with order. 

I'll probably redo the story again and see if there's any other bits and pieces that I missed regarding the lore but I will admit that plot holes are definitely here and there and ANet needs to address them somehow, or at least state that they've been covered in the game through other means. 

I think it was Soo-Won who had those minions and always was. The Inquest even captured one for Crucible of Eternity(which was similar to Thamanova and the reactor near Keining), but it was too big to fit in Zone Blue of the reactor. I can't remember where this was stated, though.

 

Its also stated by Navan(?) in Arborstone that her minions are indeed made of water, not shadows.

 

I believe the skeleton of one was mounted on Joon's wall, and says so if you interact with it, but I could just misremembering this. The Priory had something similar, if I remember correctly.

 

Its explained in the story that Soo-Won was placed in the reactor to extract her magic, keep it from overflowing and to filter to void magic out f it. Apparently this had to be done to save her, which means it was likely already getting bad, or had been for a long time by that point (just not my-children-are-all-dead levels of bad). Remember, the Zhaitan disaster was something like a century ago, and she hasn't been seen much since.

 

Also, for everyone thinking this is over, its not. Kuda is still out there.

 

I hope everyone enjoyed the bubbles memes in the final fight. Floating to your death repeatedly is what you all get for calling her nicknames all these years.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[TheBuragi.5867]

25 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I believe the skeleton of one was mounted on Joon's wall, and says so if you interact with it, but I could just misremembering this. The Priory had something similar, if I remember correctly.

It's a small Leviathan skeleton and the plaque says that these and other monstrosities started appearing in the ocean depths after Soo Won came to protect Cantha (or go live in the reactor, I am not sure, but basically after she left the depths of the ocean).

[EdwinLi.1284]

23 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yeah, although if this is something Anet plan on addressing in future content and passing off those events to another massive and downright evil creature then that opens up some fun doors to play around with.

For me one of the bigger things I want to explore after End of Dragons is Demons.
Most Demons in the franchise are mist creatures, but Gw1 factions introduced The Deep, which also had a mysterious Demon that to this day we do not know where the hell it came from.

Kanaxai's existence leaves the door open for entire species of subterrain Demons to possibly exist in the depths of the world.. even deeper than any subterrain species we know of like Asura and Skritt have ever actually gone.

I don't think it's particularly unbelievable to have the actions of the Elder Dragons over the years since their awakening act as a trigger to disturb these Demonic creatures.
They could have been fighting Dragon Minions from the other side this whole time and we simply never knew they were down there.
And now since the Dragons are gone, the biggest barriers that were preventing the Demons from coming into contact with the surface races is also gone.

I could absolutely see a storyline being possible that is based around the Dwarves hunting down what remains of Primordus's Destroyers in the Depths of the world and discovering Demons down there who would pursue them closer to the surface now that Destroyers are no longer around to contain them in the Depths.

I could also believe a story that somewhere in the depths of the ocean a similar thing happened, a crack in the ocean floor resulting in Demons being released into the deep ocean.

I would love to see stories like that in Gw2.
Not to mention it would open the doors for Deep Sea locations as well as Depths of Tyria locations for us to explore which are two places I really want to go adventuring in.

Also Submarine Mastery plz 😄 

If they go the Demons as the new Antagonist for the new storyline after Elder Dragon saga, I can see them bring back Kanaxai in the upcoming Living World story to act as the introduction to the Demons. Probably also cover the mystery to why Kanaxai ended in the Deep before the Jade Wind as well but probably don't expect too much from what they may reveal if Anet goes down this route.

-------------------------
That aside...

I was not expecting Canach to appear in this expansion storyline nor see him move on from his old life to a Club owner. Guess he has now setup his retirement life from Main Character role to future global club franchise owner.

Edited March 2, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[Tyson.5160]

12 hours ago, TheBuragi.5867 said:

I just remembered that the devs brought up the tentacled horrors again fairly recently after Primordus' and Jormag's deaths, during Dragon Bash some norn brings it up in a conversation. Which makes their absence and the benevolence of Soo Won even more odd, given at that time they were already working on the expansion.

Yes and what about zone blue in Infinity Coil. The specimens, were they talking about leviathan or possibly salt sprays?

[vectorfox.6894]

5 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

Yes and what about zone blue in Infinity Coil. The specimens, were they talking about leviathan or possibly salt sprays?

I think they honestly didn't have an idea and just made up a reason. Soo-Won doesn't really seem to have any minions and our saltspray example was adopted rather than a true minion.

[PanBelacqua.9058]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:08 PM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Gotta agree very hard on that one. No sign of whatever it was that every single deep sea species reported and caused entire civilizations like the Krait be forced to run away. It's even mentioned Aetherblades actually were the ones to tip her scales and cause her to go mad for good? How then and why did all the water races and especially the unapologetically demonic Krait leave their homes to build makeshift towers on mainland?

 

One way I could see to salvage this is if something else actually started lurking in the deep sea and the Inquest and the water races actually got it mistaken for an Elder Dragon due to the cataclysmic mess it caused. EDs are far from the only massive beings hinted at existing within the GW multiverse and another one stirring simultaneously to the release of magic that awakened Bubbles and/or Zhaitan is not far-fetched. But unfortunately this is just me going through hoops to justify their rushing it and soft retconning/ignoring previous plot beats, which is not surprising at all and probably what happened.

 

The latter paragraph is all but confirmed by the game. Ela Makkay is by the Jade Monument in New Kaineng City, and says much the same thing - that it's alarming that all these subaquatic species began fleeing for shore not when Soo-Won woke, but when she left. It sounds like she was keeping something at bay down there, and Kuunavang's request that she save Cantha has left whatever lurks in the depths to run amok.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

15 minutes ago, PanBelacqua.9058 said:

 

The latter paragraph is all but confirmed by the game. Ela Makkay is by the Jade Monument in New Kaineng City, and says much the same thing - that it's alarming that all these subaquatic species began fleeing for shore not when Soo-Won woke, but when she left. It sounds like she was keeping something at bay down there, and Kuunavang's request that she save Cantha has left whatever lurks in the depths to run amok.

I did catch that and it would be an interesting plot point to go through if handled right and if they don't forget about it like they've done a handful of times in the past.

[Tyson.5160]

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I did catch that and it would be an interesting plot point to go through if handled right and if they don't forget about it like they've done a handful of times in the past.

Would be interesting if there was some sort of parasitic aquatic creature similar to chak down there feeding on Soo-Won or her energy, and in a way creating this sort of water dragon minion.

[EdwinLi.1284]

The news reports in Cantha are interesting since their dialogue upades based on your progress in the main storyline.

 

I suggest going back to Cantha and seeing these News reports after you complete EoD as they all have Post-EoD dialogues about how Cantha is dealing with the aftermath of EoD. 

Also, there is maybe a bit of foreshadowing to the upcoming Living World storyline involving Cantha as well. 

One of the news reports mentioned a little girl asking the question "who will protect us now?" which maybe a foreshadowing to a conflict within Cantha in the upcoming Living World storyline. 

-----------------------------

As for the fates of each character at the end of EoD.

It is nice each one found their own path in life since their long time mission is over.

Canach of course is the one who got the most out of it since at this point he is billionare and owner of a now successful club franchise. We may probably see more of him once in a while in the new upcoming storyline as his franchise expands into the new regions we will be going into for the upcoming new storyline.

Braham has retired to become a shaman which is the Norn version of becoming a Monk for the rest of his life.

Logan has retired to a nice home at southsun. No word if the Pact disbanded or changed their goals.

Rytlock is back in Charr politics though he hates it to a point he will gladly join the Commander on another adventure.

Kasmeer continues her job as a representative of Kryta and now both her and Marjory are officially married.

Marjory and Gorrik started a private detective agency. 

Taimi is staying in Cantha to help adjust Jade technology and improve their functions. Even finding ways to slowdown her condition to extend her life and now use exoskeletons so her body can function normally.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by EdwinLi.1284

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

The news reports in Cantha are interesting since their dialogue upades based on your progress in the main storyline.

 

I suggest going back to Cantha and seeing these News reports after you complete EoD as they all have Post-EoD dialogues about how Cantha is dealing with the aftermath of EoD. 

Also, there is maybe a bit of foreshadowing to the upcoming Living World storyline involving Cantha as well. 

One of the news reports mentioned a little girl asking the question "who will protect us now?" which maybe a foreshadowing to a conflict within Cantha in the upcoming Living World storyline. 

-----------------------------

As for the fates of each character at the end of EoD.

It is nice each one found their own path in life since their long time mission is over.

Canach of course is the one who got the most out of it since at this point he is billionare and owner of a now successful club franchise. We may probably see more of him once in a while in the new upcoming storyline as his franchise expands into the new regions we will be going into for the upcoming new storyline.

Braham has retired to become a shaman which is the Norn version of becoming a Monk for the rest of his life.

Logan has retired to a nice home at southsun. No word if the Pact disbanded or changed their goals.

Rytlock is back in Charr politics though he hates it to a point he will gladly join the Commander on another adventure.

Kasmeer continues her job as a representative of Kryta and now both her and Marjory are officially married.

Marjory and Gorrik started a private detective agency. 

Taimi is staying in Cantha to help adjust Jade technology and improve their functions. Even finding ways to slowdown her condition to extend her life and now use exoskeletons so her body can function normally.

 

Logan isn't retiring, the place he bought in Southsun is a vacation home (or perhaps vacation hut would be a better descriptor)  He's made no statement to step down as the Marshal of the Pact, only that he's going to...try....to take some time off.

Reasonably sure that Braham also isn't retiring to become a shaman as unless I missed something he's been speaking to a shaman more or less as a kind of therapy.  Were he to do so in the future it wouldn't really be "retiring" (if retiring is something Norn even do) but instead taking on a different role that doesn't even necessarily preclude him from occasional adventures.

[TheBuragi.5867]

8 hours ago, PanBelacqua.9058 said:

The latter paragraph is all but confirmed by the game. Ela Makkay is by the Jade Monument in New Kaineng City, and says much the same thing - that it's alarming that all these subaquatic species began fleeing for shore not when Soo-Won woke, but when she left. It sounds like she was keeping something at bay down there, and Kuunavang's request that she save Cantha has left whatever lurks in the depths to run amok.

It's still odd retcon though. Soo Won has been asleep for millenia like the others, then she wakes up, then after a while she leaves, but the deep ocean horrors start appearing only after she leaves?? How could she protect the depths when asleep??

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 hours ago, TheBuragi.5867 said:

It's still odd retcon though. Soo Won has been asleep for millenia like the others, then she wakes up, then after a while she leaves, but the deep ocean horrors start appearing only after she leaves?? How could she protect the depths when asleep??

 

 

Didn't Jeff make clear that:

 

The exact nature of the DSD is as yet unrevealed, and its powers differ from the other dragons as those Elder Dragons differ from each other. But it shares with its kindred a desire to consume, corrupt, and destroy.

 

It didn't do a thing to help Tyria as well.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 3/2/2022 at 7:12 PM, vectorfox.6894 said:

I think they honestly didn't have an idea and just made up a reason. Soo-Won doesn't really seem to have any minions and our saltspray example was adopted rather than a true minion.

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

I'm not completely sure about this as she summons more Saltspray Dragons during the final story mission, and uses them against the player in much the same way as the other dragons do.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[vectorfox.6894]

6 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

I'm not completely sure about this as she summons more Saltspray Dragons during the final story mission, and uses them against the player in much the same way as the other dragons do.

Could be a moment where gameplay trumps narrative and they were brought in to make the content more exciting. I also think it would have been brought up more in-game by npcs because it is an interesting topic to see if such an old elder dragon actually has minions; especially after Kuunavang states she had to be approached to take the role.

 

I also wouldn't entirely use a case of similar appearances to bridge this gap as im confident they didn't always know what Soo-Won was going to look like, unless a dev shows old concept art which i would happily trade being wrong for that haha.

[TheBuragi.5867]

3 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

I'm not completely sure about this as she summons more Saltspray Dragons during the final story mission, and uses them against the player in much the same way as the other dragons do.

Those are already corrupted by Void, which seems to like to corrupt dragons, including Saltsprays.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I managed to painstakingly do the Dragon's End meta a couple of times and there's some post-meta dialogue in between Aurene and Soo-Won. Soo-Won pretty much confirms she created the Elder dragons and even confirms she did it much like Aurene's growth - they were children of sorts once and she describes how each of them slowly developed their personality into what they eventually became. So in short she really does not seem to have any particular minion because in a way she really just mothered each Elder Dragon and that's it.

 

Another thing she confirms in post-meta dialogue is that she created the other Elder Dragons about at the same time as Tyria became a world - probably meant as Tyria spurring out of the Mists, and also mentions that at that time Tyria was cold and lonely and life was still just taking shape. She says she created them in a mindless form - "mindless as Nature" is the exact in-game term, just to keep away the Void from approaching Tyria, but that they grew interested in particular things and eventually grew away from her and from each other. She mentions things like Mordremoth being interested in growing roots everywhere, Kralk hunting prey and Primordus only wanting to sleep and be cozy under her tail (the way she says it also makes you feel really sad for baby Primordus lol). To me this dialogue all but confirms she has nothing to do with the underwater horrors that drove away the Krait and Quaggans and it was just her mere presence which kept it at bay - might be some strange thing from the Mists or just some other being that came to be at the time she created the other dragons as well.

[vectorfox.6894]

1 hour ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I managed to painstakingly do the Dragon's End meta a couple of times and there's some post-meta dialogue in between Aurene and Soo-Won. Soo-Won pretty much confirms she created the Elder dragons and even confirms she did it much like Aurene's growth - they were children of sorts once and she describes how each of them slowly developed their personality into what they eventually became. So in short she really does not seem to have any particular minion because in a way she really just mothered each Elder Dragon and that's it.

 

Another thing she confirms in post-meta dialogue is that she created the other Elder Dragons about at the same time as Tyria became a world - probably meant as Tyria spurring out of the Mists, and also mentions that at that time Tyria was cold and lonely and life was still just taking shape. She says she created them in a mindless form - "mindless as Nature" is the exact in-game term, just to keep away the Void from approaching Tyria, but that they grew interested in particular things and eventually grew away from her and from each other. She mentions things like Mordremoth being interested in growing roots everywhere, Kralk hunting prey and Primordus only wanting to sleep and be cozy under her tail (the way she says it also makes you feel really sad for baby Primordus lol). To me this dialogue all but confirms she has nothing to do with the underwater horrors that drove away the Krait and Quaggans and it was just her mere presence which kept it at bay - might be some strange thing from the Mists or just some other being that came to be at the time she created the other dragons as well.

 

I saw that post game meta dialogue and i still find this absolutely awful and such a slapdash way of explaining Tyria that creates even more questions but then assures such questions will never require proper answering because anyone who would know that far back has now perished thanks to us. 

 

The whole reminiscing on her past and the baby elder dragons didn't really feel genuine to me and instead just tried to lay on some quick emotions. Now before i get called some cynic i really want to highlight the final moments with Kralk and the final cinematic with Soo-Won which i believe were actually well delivered sympathic moments for the elder dragons. Theres no cheap appeal to emotions with making everyone children and giving a motherly spin but those moments where the dragons finally give a small glimpse into their humanity and mortal fears was excellently delivered and far more interesting.

[maxwelgm.4315]

1 hour ago, vectorfox.6894 said:

 

I saw that post game meta dialogue and i still find this absolutely awful and such a slapdash way of explaining Tyria that creates even more questions but then assures such questions will never require proper answering because anyone who would know that far back has now perished thanks to us. 

 

The whole reminiscing on her past and the baby elder dragons didn't really feel genuine to me and instead just tried to lay on some quick emotions. Now before i get called some cynic i really want to highlight the final moments with Kralk and the final cinematic with Soo-Won which i believe were actually well delivered sympathic moments for the elder dragons. Theres no cheap appeal to emotions with making everyone children and giving a motherly spin but those moments where the dragons finally give a small glimpse into their humanity and mortal fears was excellently delivered and far more interesting.

I definitely agree this was most likely tacked on and is not the best ancient lore tidbit they came up with by a long shot. I would consider it redeemable if we had a Fractal facing the Void at the time she created the Elder Dragons. Very easy assets for a "cold, dead Tyria" and I'd be a sucker for those baby dragons lol. But what they gave so far was a bad attempt at Pixar movies regarding the relationship of Soo-Won to the other Elder Dragons.

[Ehecatl.9172]

3 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

To me this dialogue all but confirms she has nothing to do with the underwater horrors that drove away the Krait and Quaggans and it was just her mere presence which kept it at bay - might be some strange thing from the Mists or just some other being that came to be at the time she created the other dragons as well.

 

Given that the gods left Tyria rather than have a tussle with the Elder Dragons it wouldn't surprise me if Soo-Won's mere presence, asleep or awake, was enough to keep some lesser horrors from entering Tyria wholesale. Not so much in a "she wills the portal closed" way but in the same way smaller fish will go and hide when a shark passes by.

 

When she left the deep sea the horrors could have moved in to fill the vacancy she left behind.

[vectorfox.6894]

1 minute ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I definitely agree this was most likely tacked on and is not the best ancient lore tidbit they came up with by a long shot. I would consider it redeemable if we had a Fractal facing the Void at the time she created the Elder Dragons. Very easy assets for a "cold, dead Tyria" and I'd be a sucker for those baby dragons lol. But what they gave so far was a bad attempt at Pixar movies regarding the relationship of Soo-Won to the other Elder Dragons.

 

I would be down with a past fractal and seeing more Soo-Won, i think she was really interesting for the most part and any chance to see past Tyria is a big positive to me.

Yeah thats kind of the feel i got from from it with Soo-Won and the dragons which im not surprised people really liked since who doesn't like baby dragons? But it just didn't feel apt for the story or very compelling compared with what had been built up.

[TheBuragi.5867]

12 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

So in short she really does not seem to have any particular minion because in a way she really just mothered each Elder Dragon and that's it.

Yeah, I don't like this retcon very much.

All these years we were specifically told DSD has tentacled horrors made out of water.

Hope Living Story tackles this retcon and actually redeems it.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:55 AM, EdwinLi.1284 said:

With Mai Trin's revenant legend being Scarlet, this does open up the possibility of Scarlet being a future legend for Revenant Elite Spec maybe as the Rifle Elite Spec.

This may also be a interesting possible Legend because this one actually has a history with the Commander.

They also hinted that Joko was a possible legend back in Episode 1 of Season 4, and then immediately shut it down by having the PC declare "Never again".

It's likely that the same would apply to Scarlet. The Doylist explanation is probably that they don't want players running around channeling the legends of characters they might be fighting. The Watsonian explanation seems to be that while the PC is fine with channeling historical villains, channeling their own antagonists is just a little too personal.