So all this time... ?

[Shroud.2307]

Now that Harbinger and Specter exist, can we discuss what "rules" ANet has for balancing Necromancer?

I used to think Necro isn't allowed to be mobile or to have scaling defenses (Block, Invulnerability) because it has a large HP pool and more potential than most classes to swing a fight (PvP, WvW).
The most dangerous thing in a team fight should also be the one that's easiest to eliminate. I understand that logic, and that was how I understood ANet's decisions with core Necro and Reaper.

Then Scourge entered the scene, Shroud became Barrier, and other classes were given access to their own Barrier.

This confused me because Necro is limited in its defenses due to being a high impact class and having a lot of HP, but other classes like Elementalist or Engineer can also be very high impact, and both of these also have access to Barrier. It felt like the rules were being bent, but I could at least understand that Scourge had the unique ability to share Barrier, so I suppose it's reasonable that it is still limited in defenses.
As balance patches came and went, Scourge progressively lost access to Barrier to the point that things like Ranger's "Protect Me!" became nearly as strong as Scourge's heal, and Weaver and Scrapper became better at self applying Barrier than Scourge as well. Why are other things able to protect their health with Barrier, while also being high impact, having mobility, and scaling defenses, but Scourge continues to lose access to Barrier, and Necro as a class is limited in what it can have for defense because... ??? I'm not sure now.

Then Harbinger and Specter come along and now I'm just completely lost.
Specter has mobility baked in to its kit not just through virtue of being an evasive class, but also through Wells, each of which are teleports. The spec was designed as an offensive support and not only can it share an immense amount of Barrier, it can also Stealth and heal allies, and provide Boons.
It is effectively a Scourge without AOE Boon control.

Now, comparing classes is never a fair thing to do.
Just because thing A works on class A does not mean thing A works on class B. 
I get that, so this isn't about "but Thief has Stealth, I want that!", it's about why Necromancer is not allowed to access certain things when these rules don't seem to apply to other classes.

Harbinger even had its mobility nerfed, and as far as I'm aware, everyone was as confused about that as I am. As a spec it is already facing a twofold tradeoff of reduced max HP and no Shroud. Logically it should be somewhat evasive or mobile to compensate for that lack of defense and HP (think Thief - low HP and defenses, but evasive and mobile). 

So even if we consider that each class is different and balance is done based on that class and not by comparing with other classes... 
...The balance of Necro as a class doesn't make a lot of sense.

This whole time... Have these "rules" I thought existed been a mistake? Maybe it used to be true many years ago but now...

I think the only reason many of the changes that have happened, happened, is for the theme.
Harbinger had mobility nerfed and has significant tradeoffs not because it has high potential impact... But because it's Necromancer. That is the theme of the class. To be punishing for the sake of being punishing. There's no other reason for it.

I'm only writing this because I think a lot of people have been under the same impression I have. If you're as confused as I am about many of the changes that have happened, this is probably why. You thought ANet was balancing the class(es) based on mechanics, but no. They balance based on theme.

GIVE ME A kittenING BLOCK. GIVE HARBINGER MOBILITY BACK. MAKE IT FUN, MAKE IT MAKE SENSE.

/end rant

[XECOR.2814]

It wont get mobility back because its Anet. After the outrageous power damage gets nerfed it will be in dogega state for 6months-12months before they start reworking something. Take my advice and stop trying to get something out of them. Our suggestion are lost in their meetings and discussions. They are right, we are wrong. They win.

Edited March 7, 2022 by XECOR.2814

[Ashford.8540]

The difference for Harbinger and Specter meta is that specter will be nerfed and harbinger will get ""nerfed""

[Shroud.2307]

7 hours ago, KillaFin.9302 said:

The difference for Harbinger and Specter meta is that specter will be nerfed and harbinger will get ""nerfed""

What do you think needs to be nerfed about Harbinger?

Elite Elixir, agree.
Elixirs also need a better visual tell, but I wouldn't call that a nerf. More like QOL.
Shroud 5 could use a cooldown increase.
Dhuumfire could probably use a functionality change so auto spamming isn't so effective.
And I would prefer if Deathly Haste were just removed. It's like Reaper's Onslaught, it's so good with any build it makes the other two options kinda pointless to even consider.

Damage overall could be tuned down a little bit too but, I mean what do you really want them to do to a spec that often times is going to have 16 - 18k health with 0 active or scaling defenses and poor mobility? A Thief needs to use Shadow Shot on it twice and it's dead. It's probably the single easiest thing to +1 in the game.

Personally, I don't think anything should do as much damage as Harbinger does. Popping people for 20k's in a single hit is stupid because it's not interactive.
But in the case of Harbinger, it has nothing but damage. If they nerf it, they better give it something in return. People have been crying about Shroud for years and now not only is it gone, but health is reduced and the class is as slow and low on defense as ever. It also provides nothing the other Necro specs don't already do. 

So yeah you're probably right, it will get ""nerfed"". Because I have to imagine with that wording, to you, anything other than gutting the class won't be good enough.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Power harbinger is in this weird state where it is essentially a sic em soulbeast with less range, defense, and mobility. It has the same counters (projectile block) as sic em soulbeast but doesn't have a secondary damage dealing weapon (greatsword) to offset this weakness.

With all of this in consideration, the consensus among the general populace of low tiered players is that sic em soulbeast is less of a problem than harbinger because harbinger is a new shiny toy to play with and sic em soulbeast is 4 years old.

Among high tiered players, vindicator and specter reign supreme with higher dps, survivability, and mobility than either harbinger or soulbeast along with having little to no effect from the anti projectile countermeasure.

It's going to be funny to see how arenanet deals with this.

 

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

Power harbinger is in this weird state where it is essentially a sic em soulbeast with less range, defense, and mobility.

 

What I especially love about this is how much of a pain in the behind Soulbeasts are in WvW, and they've been this way with minimal nerfs for years. A glass Longbow Soulbeast that's at least somewhat capable is quite difficult to punish all the while dealing a colossal amount of damage. 
I'm not going to rant about Boonbeast because the similarities between it and glass Harbinger are much fewer.

But while on this subject, I got a good laugh today while playing Power Harbi in WvW.
A Soulbeast comes rushing toward me, I Elixir myself, he pops "Sic Em!" and One Wolf Pack, I double dodge, he ports in for Smoke Assault, I Voracious Arc and cut his health clean in half as Assault ends, then Devouring Cut in to him and he's down.
I took a huge risk pre-buffing myself and not trying to widen the gap between us, but rather expecting to land Arc as the evades ended, and it payed off, which was great.

But then this same guy catches me a few min later on terrain more favoring to him, and I down in 3 hits from 1,500 range because he hits me with several 6k+ Longbow autos, LOL. 
Yet like you said, everyone's mad about Harbi because it's the new shiny so it'll probably be the one to get kneecapped.

Harbinger absolutely needs a nerf IMHO. The damage is absurd. But again, as I'd said in my other comment here, it needs something in return. Like if Soulbeast can do a 32k spike from a football field away all the while having the mobility and defensive options that it does, Harbi better not get its damage gutted and given nothing to compensate.

[Fueki.4753]

There are no rules for balancing Necromancer, or any other profession.

There is not a single sliver of balance in the game, so why should Arenanet have rules for it?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

What do you think needs to be nerfed about Harbinger?

The "damage increase when above the blight treshold" that some skills have should probably get down to 25% from 100% in competitive modes. (that or a 50% nerf to the base strike damage of these skills)

Elixirs, honestly, do way too many things at the same time (damage, support, debuff... one even breakstun). I just can't understand how such blatantly overloaded skills managed to get through the beta not with a shave of effect but an increased amount of effects instead.

You're right about dhuumfire, it has badly needed a rework for many years already (3s burn on every hits of an AA is not "OK")

All 3 harbinger grandmaster are terribly "passive" in their design, it was something that was questioned in the feedback but wasn't answered by the devs... Like 99% of what was in the feedbacks of all professions).

[Infusion.7149]

Harbinger should have 900 range leap back IMO. Elixirs are 900 range, wells are 900 range, CPC is 900 range, the fiend is 900 range.

No need to compare to specter to suggest that , especially when you consider that specter wells are 600 range.

[Morde.3158]

You want the 900 leap to run away and stuff I want shroud recharge back like the old days.  I agree though but they said in the streams that they was about to break their own rules.

[oscuro.9720]

I’ve played Harb, Blade, and Virt (mostly blade tbh). All three are specs that got basically 1 thing; damage (I like damages 🙂 ). Harbinger clearly outperforms the other two in the damage front, when it’s not apparent to me that it should. That’s not to say Harb should be nerfed hard, but I think it’s damage is over performing atm. I’d also say the other two are undertuned atm. 
That’s about all I can contribute, idk what is right or wrong. I just know that playing all 3, harbinger got significantly more damage when I’d argue all 3 got similar trade offs (no shroud, no clones, no weapon swap). 

[LucianDK.8615]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I’ve played Harb, Blade, and Virt (mostly blade tbh). All three are specs that got basically 1 thing; damage (I like damages 🙂 ). Harbinger clearly outperforms the other two in the damage front, when it’s not apparent to me that it should. That’s not to say Harb should be nerfed hard, but I think it’s damage is over performing atm. I’d also say the other two are undertuned atm. 
That’s about all I can contribute, idk what is right or wrong. I just know that playing all 3, harbinger got significantly more damage when I’d argue all 3 got similar trade offs (no shroud, no clones, no weapon swap). 

 Mesmers and warriors have far more defensive options unlike harbingers.

[Nimon.7840]

17 hours ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

Power harbinger is in this weird state where it is essentially a sic em soulbeast with less range, defense, and mobility. It has the same counters (projectile block) as sic em soulbeast but doesn't have a secondary damage dealing weapon (greatsword) to offset this weakness.

With all of this in consideration, the consensus among the general populace of low tiered players is that sic em soulbeast is less of a problem than harbinger because harbinger is a new shiny toy to play with and sic em soulbeast is 4 years old.

Among high tiered players, vindicator and specter reign supreme with higher dps, survivability, and mobility than either harbinger or soulbeast along with having little to no effect from the anti projectile countermeasure.

It's going to be funny to see how arenanet deals with this.

 

 

A lot less range than sicem Soulbeast.

And far less mobility/ survivability.

 

5 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

 Mesmers and warriors have far more defensive options unlike harbingers.

 

Exactly this.

People are complaining that harbinger uses it's only active defensive skill to oneshot people? - learn to play. Really it's not that hard to dodge voracious arc.

Sorry but full power oneshot is a meme build.

Sacrificing everything in order to land two skills to potentially oneshot people. Dodge those and harbi is a free kill.

Unlike sicem Soulbeast that does the same damage from (maybe even more) from 1200+ range, while having access to swoop and greats word survivability/mobility skills.

[Dr Meta.3158]

6 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

A lot less range than sicem Soulbeast.

And far less mobility/ survivability.

 

 

Exactly this.

People are complaining that harbinger uses it's only active defensive skill to oneshot people? - learn to play. Really it's not that hard to dodge voracious arc.

Sorry but full power oneshot is a meme build.

Sacrificing everything in order to land two skills to potentially oneshot people. Dodge those and harbi is a free kill.

Unlike sicem Soulbeast that does the same damage from (maybe even more) from 1200+ range, while having access to swoop and greats word survivability/mobility skills.

Exactly

 

Harbinger really only does high burst damage with its elite skill active and it uses it's only defensive ability to deal that damage while having to be in melee range to do so with steadily decreasing health then it uses wurm to get out and hope to slowly out run you after you dodged it's only two burst skills.

 

Sic em soulbeast can do twice the amount of damage from 1500+ range out of stealth (Its first burst skill requiring two dodges to fully avoid) and then can re enter stealth and burst you again in melee while evading then has a block and can leap out of range again to enter stealth again and setup to burst you from 1500+ range while having a pet attack and CC you while you struggle to keep up if you even survived to begin with.

 

Power harbinger is a joke. Once you get out of gold, you'll see much, much, much worse offenders.