Staff and Scepter not getting buffed condition damage to compensate for the loss of clones on Virtuoso is such a BIG oversight and flaw

[mungozen.2379]

I was looking at that Condi spec in the video above, and have played a slightly different version based upon my gear.  One thing I am wondering about is how I can make up the 19.05% Crit in Open World that comes from stacking Writ of Accuracy, Spotter and Banner of Discipline.

Is there an alternate build that can get to 70% Crit before Fury that doesn't kitten the other stats?

[Veprovina.4876]

56 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I was looking at that Condi spec in the video above, and have played a slightly different version based upon my gear.  One thing I am wondering about is how I can make up the 19.05% Crit in Open World that comes from stacking Writ of Accuracy, Spotter and Banner of Discipline.

Is there an alternate build that can get to 70% Crit before Fury that doesn't kitten the other stats?

You can mix and match berserker's and assassin's. I have 70% crit in open world with those. And fireworks rune. But then, that isn't a condi build...

In any case, no you can't i think get 70% before crit without Writ and banner i think. I mean, if you mix in some condi/crit gear, but then it kittens with other stats.

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

No i meant you in the 3 posts 5 hours on mesmer category. 😉 

But your unconditional praise of Virtuoso does do more harm than good in the long run. 

Please try to be aware of that.

I upvote and promote anyone who wants to fix the class up, I just don't like a forum negativity. If you want the developers to read the forums we need to a better job at being constructive. I mean I'm pretty sure a couple have people have gotten banned by responding to me for attacking my character.

[Urphen.2857]

43 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I upvote and promote anyone who wants to fix the class up, I just don't like a forum negativity. If you want the developers to read the forums we need to a better job at being constructive. I mean I'm pretty sure a couple have people have gotten banned by responding to me for attacking my character.

Maybe they should bann you for all the lies?

How is it constructive in telling lies? How is it constructive in disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?

How you can even implying that you are pro fixing the class while you only things coming up is to say everywhere how fine Virtuoso is and telling everyone everywhere you aren't even playing it?

So many posts with but I play chrono not virtu because of bla bla and I don't play mesmer I play untamed because of bla bla...

It's sickening for sure for all that really wants that something changes and as always we aren't talking about golem dps numbers

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I upvote and promote anyone who wants to fix the class up, I just don't like a forum negativity. If you want the developers to read the forums we need to a better job at being constructive. I mean I'm pretty sure a couple have people have gotten banned by responding to me for attacking my character.

Yeah, no, that's not really what you're doing though, is it?

If you're blatantly misrepresenting something about Virtuoso that the majority of the community identified as a problem that needs fixing, then that's just as toxic as some "negativity" here.

Criticism is by nature "negative sounding", no one wants to be criticised, but even negative criticism, or one that doesn't offer solutions is constructive because it identifies a problem. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

The part I really like is people think Anet is going choose the path of buffing core weapons to improve a specific spec build (which they have never done)  instead of buffing the spec  features itself (which they did do and do all the time).

I think the cherry on the top here would be to do something about the silly reliance on stats like precision and especially VIT on the traits. Still playing around with it. 

[Urphen.2857]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 (which they have never done)

 They never made a class defining weapon mechanic useless before so not sure what you are trying to proof? 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

 They never made a class defining weapon mechanic useless before so not sure what you are trying to proof? 

The interesting part is that it's apparent that making mechanics 'useless' on core weapons doesn't appear to be a motivating reason to stop them from using the already existing Virtuoso features to improve condi builds specific to Virtuoso with Virtuoso-specific gear in mind. 

People can learn alot by looking at what Anet does and doesn't do. For me, this says something about what Anet thinks about the relationship between core weapons and especs. It should say something to other people to. 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Urphen.2857]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The interesting part is that it's apparent that making mechanics 'useless' on core weapons doesn't appear to be a motivating reason to stop them from using the already existing Virtuoso features to improve condi builds specific to Virtuoso. 

 

 

And still the problem isn't solved, they made core weapons useless without even touching the weapon itself (a thing that never happened bevor) and go the path to force you to play with dagger.

So your so beloved anet lies to all and to them self when they say things like play like you want, bring the player not the spec or they simply are overwhelmed and don't know what to do with mesmer what at the end means there is no vision.

Now you can choose what it is but don't quote me because I know you are coming again with a cheap excuse and how only you can see the big picture of anets vision.

I for sure gonna ignore you, have a nice day 👋

[Archer.4362]

On 9/3/2022 at 13:44, Hallow.7368 said:

Hablo más de los últimos meses. Concretamente desde las betas hasta ahora. Creo que en el primer hilo en el que hice clic en este foro, la gente se quejaba de que era necesario volver a trabajar completamente en virt desde cero porque su habilidad de élite en una prueba beta tenía un hitbox con errores. Si soy un desarrollador y entro a estos foros para buscar sugerencias y eso es lo primero que veo y es basura inútil, ¿por qué volvería o me importarían las publicaciones? ¿Especialmente cuando durante los próximos 4 meses sigue siendo un sinfín de quejas sin comentarios constructivos que son realmente útiles y todo lo que es bueno termina siendo ahogado por todos los gatitos inútiles? La forma en que las personas en este acto secundario alimentan el problema al hacer un ruido adicional sin valor y luego dicen "oh, no importará, de todos modos no lo verán". entonces porque estas publicando?? Simplemente aumenta las probabilidades de que NO vean nada bueno.

because it's their job to check every post and comment from people if you ask for opinions on specializations. Whether you like a comment or not, the next one may be appropriate.

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Urphen.2857 said:

And still the problem isn't solved, they made core weapons useless without even touching the weapon itself (a thing that never happened bevor) and go the path to force you to play with dagger.

It's funny that after almost 10 years, people think that ignoring design intent is a reasonable approach to saying changes are needed. So let's go through this.

• Anet designs a spec with features specific to it for a condi build.
• They buff that build to encourage players to use it.
• Anet has not made any changes to core weapons to further improve Virtuoso condi builds with NON-Virtuoso features.
• Anet has stated some clone features won't work with Virtuoso.  

Now, SOMEHOW in this scenario with these events, players have convinced themselves that some dysfunctional non-Virtuoso features need to be changed to improve condi Virt. 

OH OK then 🤔

Quote

I for sure gonna ignore you, have a nice day 👋

Yes, PLEASE and THANK YOU. I got NO problem with that. 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Maybe they should bann you for all the lies?

I doubt it, anything i say will make us go around in circles.

If you bring up any good point I will like your post, that's about it.

I do want to see Virtuoso get better but I'm not endorsing the complete redo of the class. I mean currently its my best CM Fractals dps, even beats out mirage since I can stay ranged during the dps rotation.

[Urphen.2857]

39 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I doubt it, anything i say will make us go around in circles.

If you bring up any good point I will like your post, that's about it.

I do want to see Virtuoso get better but I'm not endorsing the complete redo of the class. I mean currently its my best CM Fractals dps, even beats out mirage since I can stay ranged during the dps rotation.

🤦‍♂️

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I'm not endorsing the complete redo of the class.

Thank God then, it's not up to you.

[necromaniac.7629]

I do agree somewhat that those weps definitely don't have any synergy with virtuoso especially them not having any blade skillfact compared to GS for example but in a pvp sense, sharper images got nerfed hard anyways so I don't think its a big part of your condi output anyways, its more of your wep skills and shatters

[necromaniac.7629]

i think its unfortunate but not that big of a deal

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Thank God then, it's not up to you.

Well i highly doubt they will redo the elite now. People are to invested in the new spec

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well i highly doubt they will redo the elite now. People are to invested in the new spec

They don't have to redo it, but personally I'd like to see phantasms replaced with some other skills. 

To make it truly cloneless.

 

[Mell.4873]

3 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

They don't have to redo it, but personally I'd like to see phantasms replaced with some other skills. 

To make it truly cloneless.

 

I think i have seen you suggest that before and i love that idea.

[Veprovina.4876]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

I think i have seen you suggest that before and i love that idea.

I did, in my review.

But that's basically a rework though, they'd have to rework how Phantasm skills work on Virtuoso.

[Mell.4873]

55 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I did, in my review.

But that's basically a rework though, they'd have to rework how Phantasm skills work on Virtuoso.

I guess, it wouldn't be to hard since they would just need to apply the buffs to Bladesongs or the Mesmer itself.

[Xaylin.1860]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

People can learn alot by looking at what Anet does and doesn't do. For me, this says something about what Anet thinks about the relationship between core weapons and especs.

They sure can and you are right that many people fail to consider what's reasonable. However, actions can be the result of many reasons.

 

Them buffing Virtuoso traits doesn't necessarily mean they intended for such mediocre synergy between Virtuoso and core. It might as well just be because it is the easiest and cheapest way to make cVirtuoso work especially since many (subjectively perceived but maybe objectively existing) issues on Virtuoso are more complex than just tuning numbers, meaning: more expensive to solve.

 

The only thing we know for sure is that they want Bleeding on Virtuoso to be a thing. Saying that some things won't work with core is just a clarification and doesn't give us any deeper insight into their reasoning or whether this has been intentional design or simply worked out that way. It just sets expectations straight. So in the end, yeah, people should pay attention what ANet does or doesn't do. But I disagree with you when it comes to the extent to what outsiders can draw from that. You are reaching a bit too far in this case specifically. For example, Bladesworn is on the other end of the synergy spectrum when compared to Virtuoso (Flow and Adrenaline; Bursts and Dragontrigger). Soulbeast is another one. ANet clearly considers those interactions. The reason why it didn't happen for Virtuoso, we just don't know.

 

That being said, I remain in the "nope to buffing Scepter/Staff for Virtuoso" camp. However, while I don't expect them to solve the issues evolving around Sharper Images, I think that expexting more "blades" on core to make use of one of the core features of Virtuoso to be justifiable.

[Obtena.7952]

32 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

They sure can and you are right that many people fail to consider what's reasonable. However, actions can be the result of many reasons.

 

Them buffing Virtuoso traits doesn't necessarily mean they intended for such mediocre synergy between Virtuoso and core. It might as well just be because it is the easiest and cheapest way to make cVirtuoso work especially since many (subjectively perceived but maybe objectively existing) issues on Virtuoso are more complex than just tuning numbers, meaning: more expensive to solve.

True ... I'm convinced that the very focused designs of EoD specs are exactly for that reason that it's just easier for Anet to make changes to them that don't impact other specs. Virtuoso is not exceptional and the duration changes on the bleeds are evidence of that. 

Quote

But I disagree with you when it comes to the extent to what outsiders can draw from that. You are reaching a bit too far in this case specifically. For example, Bladesworn is on the other end of the synergy spectrum when compared to Virtuoso (Flow and Adrenaline; Bursts and Dragontrigger). Soulbeast is another one. ANet clearly considers those interactions. The reason why it didn't happen for Virtuoso, we just don't know.

I think it's not a stretch to draw on the patch as a good indicator of the intent here. If people think Staff/Scepter needs buffs to make cVirt better and Anet addresses the " not good condi on Virt " problem (properly) by buffing Virtuoso-specific condi traits in patch; that's about as good as Anet coming out and saying " Hey, we fix things wrong with specs by changing features that belong to that spec ". It's the best way for them to do that.

Quote

That being said, I remain in the "nope to buffing Scepter/Staff for Virtuoso" camp. However, while I don't expect them to solve the issues evolving around Sharper Images, I think that expexting more "blades" on core to make use of one of the core features of Virtuoso to be justifiable.

This is related to a problem specific to the Virtuoso design; some effects that trigger on blades don't work if you have 5 blades. So I have to disagree that it's a good or justifiable idea to find more spots on core to generate blades since it's you will only encounter this problem on Virtuoso. If we need improved blade generation, that should be limited to Virtuoso. If we need more ways to use those blades, that is where core changes need to occur. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Sylvia.4870]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:27 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

Imagine if picking Daredevil on thief nerfed dagger autos by 50%. Players would riot.  

 That would be more shocking and more depressing.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Sylvia.4870

[Xaylin.1860]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think it's not a stretch to draw on the patch as a good indicator of the intent here. If people think Staff/Scepter needs buffs to make cVirt better and Anet addresses the " not good condi on Virt " problem (properly) by buffing Virtuoso-specific condi traits in patch; that's about as good as Anet coming out and saying " Hey, we fix things wrong with specs by changing features that belong to that spec ". It's the best way for them to do that.

It only tells us that they want cVirtuoso to be stronger, more specifically via bleeding. It doesn't tell you anything about why this is the option they picked. That's exactly where you are reaching. At best, we can assume that they are reaching for easy changes and low hanging fruit with few interactions (duh, of course that would be on Virtuoso only). But even that's just speculation.

 

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This is related to a problem specific to the Virtuoso design; some effects that trigger on blades don't work if you have 5 blades.

I was talking about the other blades. The "Explosion" ones, not the Clone ones.