Despise what mes invaders say Virt is not fine.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Virt is absolutely not fine here's why:

Its supposed to be a shatter spec but the cooldowns are the same, so you shatter at the same speed. 

All skills are projectiles, there's not a single spec in this game who relies solely on projectiles and there's a reason for it. 

A single sidestep will negate a 5 blade shatter. 

F1 - 5 blades deals as much damage as a 2clone IP core shatter. 

F3 is the lost useless skill on game - it's an interrupt with cast time + travel time. 

F4 will get you killed due to animation inconsistency between block and attack, to add to that the patethic damage will get you revealed if you need a lifesaver while stealthed for example. 

Staff and scepter sustain damage is garbage due to no clones. 

GS2 hits only once due to no clones. 

All utilities except BR, heal and elite are absolute garbage. 

A spec that relies on range it doesn't have the tools to stay at range, which is fun, since Virt is the only new spec that didn't got skill to create a gap and no mobility skills. 

Sustain is trash due to no clones and no introduction of some system to make up for clone loss. 

No boons unlike every other new spec. 

Traits doesn't change the playstyle and are bland af. 

So yeah, Virt is the laziest kitten this game ever got, it only has damage and even the damage is not only subpar its also easily avoidable. 

[Skyroar.2974]

Virtuoso has a lot of problems, but it still has an interesting theme and playstyle and visual effects behind it, which is more than what can be said about half of the rushed elite specs this expansion has to offer.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skyroar.2974

[Nezekan.2671]

22 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Virtuoso has a lot of problems, but it still has an interesting theme and playstyle and visual effects behind it, which is more than what can be said about half of the rushed elite specs this expansion has to offer.

I question everything you have to say about GW2 if you think Virtuoso is less rushed than other e-specs. The only other one that is remotely comparable to Virtuoso in terms of being unfinished and dysfunctional is Untamed. The rest are in a much better position. Also Mesmer as a whole was in a bad position pre new e-spec, so it relied more on the new e-spec being good than most. Especially in PvP and WvW.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[phokus.8934]

It certainly needs a lot of polish and changes.  The obvious aside, one overlooked issue in my opinion is the heal.  In PvE it has a 20s cooldown while in WvW/PvP it has a 30s cooldown.  That's a pretty disproportionate difference considering Virtuoso has no good sustain.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say they will fix the "bug" where you have to be facing your target with it as well.

Virtuoso can be good but it's not there yet.  Quite a bit to change and adjust and then it'll be what we want it to be in some way.  But as of right now, anyone who says Virtuoso is fine is being overtly disingenuous. 

[Arewn.2368]

Man this sub is such an echo chamber that the regulars have taken to viewing people with differing opinions as "invaders" now.

New Elite specs across the board are half baked and in serious need of the upcoming June balance patch. Virt has problems certainly need to be solved, but is doing fine by EoD standards.

Also this thread is just repeating what several other threads are already talking about. Did you really need a new thread to say this?

[SWLDguitar.5746]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Traits doesn't change the playstyle and are bland af. 

LOL what?
Sounds like you're a pvper...

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABwyh3lVwOYYMV2Im+XaxKA-zxIY14/MCUJkuMwiDA-e

Please play this, let me know how your playstyle hasn't changed.
Also let me know how many messages you get from annoyed enemies who cannot kill you.

[Nezekan.2671]

13 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

LOL what?
Sounds like you're a pvper...

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABwyh3lVwOYYMV2Im+XaxKA-zxIY14/MCUJkuMwiDA-e

Please play this, let me know how your playstyle hasn't changed.
Also let me know how many messages you get from annoyed enemies who cannot kill you.

So, the entire play style is aegis > shatter.

Is getting blades from aegis/block that revolutionary?  It's the same mesmer playstyle, just you get your resources differently. Also this build gets obliterated by other mesmers because clone attacks waste your aegis/block and you don't have enough condi cleanse. Once condi is on you, it will cause lots of damage.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[SWLDguitar.5746]

36 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

So, the entire play style is aegis > shatter.

Is getting blades from aegis/block that revolutionary?  It's the same mesmer playstyle, just you get your resources differently. Also this build gets obliterated by other mesmers because clone attacks waste your aegis/block and you don't have enough condi cleanse. Once condi is on you, it will cause lots of damage.

5 Aegis (7 if you include from phantasms), 5 Distortions, 1 Sword block, 2 Dodge, 1 Blur, perma quickness, close to 25 might, perma fury, perma Regen, perma Swiftness, 20% hard CC reduction.  5% heal max HP on block (basically +25-30% hp every rotation for just playing the build), 407 healing on Blade stock - every proc of Psychic Riposte 1,221 healing.

Once condis are on you, you literally press Arcane Thievery and it's game over for them.  Good luck applying them through all the blocks and distortions while being pummeled by essentially a perma quickness/might/fury/regen mesmer.   With no real way to escape.

I don't think you actually looked at the build hard enough.  It's literally an immortal dueling build.  Point is, it's not traditional, not even close.  You're a bruiser who can't lose 1v1, 1v2, and likely 1v3.

Edited March 10, 2022 by SWLDguitar.5746

[Nezekan.2671]

20 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

5 Aegis, 5 Distortions, 1 Sword block, 2 Dodge, 1 Blur, perma quickness, close to 25 might, perma fury, perma Regen, perma Swiftness, 20% hard CC reduction.  5% heal max HP on block (basically +25-30% hp every rotation for just playing the build), 407 healing on Blade stock - every proc of Psychic Riposte 1,221 healing.

Once condis are on you, you literally press Arcane Thievery and it's game over for them.  Good luck applying them through all the blocks and distortions while being pummeled by essentially a perma quickness/might/fury/regen mesmer.   With no real way to escape.

I don't think you actually looked at the build hard enough.  It's literally an immortal dueling build.  Point is, it's not traditional, not even close.  You're a bruiser who can't lose 1v1, 1v2, and likely 1v3.

Lol, I theorized a build like this on beta 1 and actually played it. Also played it on live. It's primarily a 1v1 build and it's not bad. But it's not meta. If people know what they are doing, you will struggle. They can just not hit you. Not to mention your shatters are easiest thing to dodge in the game, so you might block everything they throw at you, but they can do the same.

I prefer playing mirage over this, and it comfortably wins this match up 1v1.

Also ground based conditions get applied, like Spectre and Scourge. And classes that make quick attacks in succession will also apply them. You can't block 24/7. Spectre ambush one attacks 8 times, each applying 1 poison for example. You also can't block the cc well.

Furthermore, Phantasms giving you aegis is unreliable. It's very likely they will get cleaved by something before being able to give you the aegis and you miss out good traits to get them. This variation of the build is better:

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[SWLDguitar.5746]

1 minute ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Lol, I theorized a build like this on beta 1 and actually played it. Also played it on live. It's primarily a 1v1 build and it's not bad. But it's not meta. If people know what they are doing, you will struggle. They can just not hit you. Not to mention your shatters are easiest thing to dodge in the game, so you might block everything they throw at you, but they can do the same.

I prefer playing mirage over this, and it comfortably wins this match up 1v1.

Now you're splitting hairs.

It can 1v1 and be used in group play as you provide for a 5 man team as well.

They have to deal with you.  You're wearing Celestial gear, it's not like you don't have damage, you definitely do.  If they don't focus you in group play you're going to keep giving your team aegis and healing - which WILL add up in group play - you can provide 25 aegis applications off the bat which will soak a ton of damage.

 

You don't have to play it, just saying for the OP, there are DEFINITELY different ways to play now.  I'm assuming this guy is running around in berserker/viper gear and saying nothing has changed.  It's not the case.

[Nezekan.2671]

16 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

Now you're splitting hairs.

It can 1v1 and be used in group play as you provide for a 5 man team as well.

They have to deal with you.  You're wearing Celestial gear, it's not like you don't have damage, you definitely do.  If they don't focus you in group play you're going to keep giving your team aegis and healing - which WILL add up in group play - you can provide 25 aegis applications off the bat which will soak a ton of damage.

 

You don't have to play it, just saying for the OP, there are DEFINITELY different ways to play now.  I'm assuming this guy is running around in berserker/viper gear and saying nothing has changed.  It's not the case.

It's better in WvW than it is in pvp since you can run something like Cele. But Virtuoso in pvp is not that great.

Also, this is again not a new way to play. There are very high sustain mirage builds as well. The issue here is how easy it is to not take damage from Virtuoso. Virtuoso dying was never the issue. Anyone who runs Berskerer instead of Marauder on Virtuoso is a pure noob. Marauder gives more ferocity and precision to Virtuoso and the damage loss compared to Berserker is VERY small.

Also have you played Ministrel Chrono on WvW teams? It's currently the only viable Mesmer build in group WvW play and I don't think this build is beating it. It plays a similar role, but it uses better utilities. Chrono elite is amazing and you can provide quickness on the go, it's not area based. And you are really hard to kill. Can run things like illusion of life and null field etc etc.

I don't have a problem with people enjoying Virtuoso, but you just have to admit it needs buffs overall when you look at it's performance in all modes. Niches are not what keeps a class good. Mesmer already relevant because of niches, it does not need more. Why can't Virtuoso compete for best ranged damage in WvW? Why has ranger and others occupied this role unrivaled for years. Why does Mesmer get projectile only spec with long cast times, animations and travel times?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[viquing.8254]

Show me a EU stream of a plat2 or top 50 ladder guys playing it then we can talk about the metaness of this spec.

We will also see next MAT.

As soon as I see that I will buy the expac.

Edited March 10, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, viquing.8254 said:

Show me a EU stream of a plat2 or top 50 ladder guys playing it then we can talk about the metaness of this spec.

We will also see next MAT.

As soon as I see that I will buy the expac.

It will not happen until they change it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

You know whats the funniest thing about relying on block as your focal point of mechanics? One unblockable can completely decimate you, and the game isn't short of that at all. 

Also this build uses celestial stats, sorry to say it isnt the build that is good or the class that is good its being carried by celesital stats, celestial statline is one of the most kitten thing ANET balance team has done. Giving free stats without nerfing the overall base statline is completely mind blowing.

You can slap celestial stats to almost any class that has a bit of condi damage and call it a day.

[Skyroar.2974]

10 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

I question everything you have to say about GW2 if you think Virtuoso is less rushed than other e-specs. The only other one that is remotely comparable to Virtuoso in terms of being unfinished and dysfunctional is Untamed. The rest are in a much better position.

Ah yes, Willbender, the copy-pasted sw/sw revenant/daredevil spec with placeholder icons, is a wonderfully designed and totally not rushed spec. And who can forget the Catalyst, that slaps a generic combo field generator in the F5 slot and calls it a day? That is peak quality design, right? Where the most unique mechanic it has to offer is tied with the new weapon, and it doesn't even fits in properly. Or, maybe, we should talk about Vindicator, the greatsword rev spec where half of its new weapon skills recycle the auto-attack basic slash animation, and are generally so generic that they feel straight out of a reject warrior.

By EoD's low standards, Virtuoso is one of the better specs this expansion has to offer.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Skyroar.2974

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ah yes, Willbender, the copy-pasted sw/sw revenant/daredevil spec with placeholder icons, is a wonderfully designed and totally not rushed spec. And who can forget the Catalyst, that slaps a generic combo field generator in the F5 slot and calls it a day? That is peak quality design, right? Where the most unique mechanic it has to offer is tied with the new weapon, and it doesn't even fits in properly. Or, maybe, we should talk about Vindicator, the greatsword rev spec where half of its new weapon skills recycle the auto-attack basic slash animation, and are generally so generic that they feel straight out of a reject warrior.

By EoD's low standards, Virtuoso is one of the better specs this expansion has to offer.

Clearly you dont play Mesmer enough to make that comment. Nor should anyone deny that other specs are unfinished because they are all lackluster and slapped with lazy designs. Only that are good on any of them are the visual design team/animation team, except for Virtuoso dagger autos, really??

Edited March 10, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Shiyo.3578]

14 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

No boons unlike every other new spec. 

Actually, pure dps mech generates literally 0 boons. Infact, most of the new specs when going pure DPS generate literally 0 self boons.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Nezekan.2671]

5 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ah yes, Willbender, the copy-pasted sw/sw revenant/daredevil spec with placeholder icons, is a wonderfully designed and totally not rushed spec. And who can forget the Catalyst, that slaps a generic combo field generator in the F5 slot and calls it a day? That is peak quality design, right? Where the most unique mechanic it has to offer is tied with the new weapon, and it doesn't even fits in properly. Or, maybe, we should talk about Vindicator, the greatsword rev spec where half of its new weapon skills recycle the auto-attack basic slash animation, and are generally so generic that they feel straight out of a reject warrior.

By EoD's low standards, Virtuoso is one of the better specs this expansion has to offer.

At least they are functional in a sense that they are not a nerf to the class. The issue here is when you talk about something like Catalyst, it's currently outperforming Tempest and Weaver in PvE. It can provide quickness and high dps at the same time, or provide very high DPS (currently benchmarking higher than Virtuoso). This is especially true after 10 man nerfs to Tempest. Now Catalyst almost does everything better than Tempest.

Willbender is a pvp/WvW (roaming) focus class, but it can also provide alacrity if needed, which Guardian did not have.

Vindicator is currently dominating pvp, not sure if you are playing that mode. Herald and Revenant have nothing on it in this mode.

Virtuoso is simply really disadvantaged in all modes, except power dps in PvE. But Mesmer already had Power Chrono, and Virtuoso and Chronomancer have identical benchmarks. As I said, Untamed is the only comparable e-spec to Virtuoso, as they both suffer from same things. However I would personally score Mesmer lower, because as a whole Mesmer was in a weaker position compared to Ranger pre EoD, so it relied on Virtuoso boosting the class more than Ranger did. Druid and Soulbeast were in better positions than Chronomancer and Mirage.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[mortrialus.3062]

17 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is absolutely not fine here's why:

Its supposed to be a shatter spec but the cooldowns are the same, so you shatter at the same speed. 

All skills are projectiles, there's not a single spec in this game who relies solely on projectiles and there's a reason for it. 

A single sidestep will negate a 5 blade shatter. 

F1 - 5 blades deals as much damage as a 2clone IP core shatter. 

F3 is the lost useless skill on game - it's an interrupt with cast time + travel time. 

F4 will get you killed due to animation inconsistency between block and attack, to add to that the patethic damage will get you revealed if you need a lifesaver while stealthed for example. 

Staff and scepter sustain damage is garbage due to no clones. 

GS2 hits only once due to no clones. 

All utilities except BR, heal and elite are absolute garbage. 

A spec that relies on range it doesn't have the tools to stay at range, which is fun, since Virt is the only new spec that didn't got skill to create a gap and no mobility skills. 

Sustain is trash due to no clones and no introduction of some system to make up for clone loss. 

No boons unlike every other new spec. 

Traits doesn't change the playstyle and are bland af. 

So yeah, Virt is the laziest kitten this game ever got, it only has damage and even the damage is not only subpar its also easily avoidable. 

Yep.  Like I actually like the idea of a cloneless mesmer spec. I also really like the idea of a mesmer spec that in PvP is focused on team fighting and cleave damage rather than 1v1 or roaming. And even tho Virtuoso is different from my dream interpretation of it, I do want to really like it.   In SPvP mesmer has had a lot of good 1v1 specs for duelist.  It's had solid roaming specs.  But historically, it's never had a spec that can just hard carry the team fight the way necro can and I really wanted to see something like  that. 

But it needs genuine work and attention to get it to a good place.  And like I could end up really liking it, but I can't like it considering how completely the devs are ignoring feedback.

Which is also why the "Virtuoso is PERFECT" crowd as so frustrating.  They come across as trolls trying to sabotage the spec right out the gate rather than people with any sort of concern for seeing Virtuoso do well in any game mode. 

Just as an example, I love the idea of Bladesworn.  I think from what I've played, it's incredibly fun and very unique from other specs.  I think the same of specter and mechanist as well.  But I don't bog down their entire forum with thread after thread about how much I enjoyed playing the LW story and doing meta events on those spec, and how perfect they are and don't need any changes whatsoever.  I don't presume to know exactly how those specs feel and perform in all game modes since I don't main them.  But I've got thousands of PvP games on Mesmer.  And when I say "this thing doesn't have the tools to succeed in SPVP" I mean that. 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

19 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is absolutely not fine here's why:

Its supposed to be a shatter spec but the cooldowns are the same, so you shatter at the same speed. 

All skills are projectiles, there's not a single spec in this game who relies solely on projectiles and there's a reason for it. 

A single sidestep will negate a 5 blade shatter. 

F1 - 5 blades deals as much damage as a 2clone IP core shatter. 

F3 is the lost useless skill on game - it's an interrupt with cast time + travel time. 

F4 will get you killed due to animation inconsistency between block and attack, to add to that the patethic damage will get you revealed if you need a lifesaver while stealthed for example. 

Staff and scepter sustain damage is garbage due to no clones. 

GS2 hits only once due to no clones. 

All utilities except BR, heal and elite are absolute garbage. 

A spec that relies on range it doesn't have the tools to stay at range, which is fun, since Virt is the only new spec that didn't got skill to create a gap and no mobility skills. 

Sustain is trash due to no clones and no introduction of some system to make up for clone loss. 

No boons unlike every other new spec. 

Traits doesn't change the playstyle and are bland af. 

So yeah, Virt is the laziest kitten this game ever got, it only has damage and even the damage is not only subpar its also easily avoidable. 

The cooldowns aren't the same, F2 and F3 and F4 are lower (F2 and F3 got changed between beta and release, idk why noone except me seems to have noticed this). However, you're still right that Virtuoso is garb.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

10 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Ah yes, Willbender, the copy-pasted sw/sw revenant/daredevil spec with placeholder icons, is a wonderfully designed and totally not rushed spec. And who can forget the Catalyst, that slaps a generic combo field generator in the F5 slot and calls it a day? That is peak quality design, right? Where the most unique mechanic it has to offer is tied with the new weapon, and it doesn't even fits in properly. Or, maybe, we should talk about Vindicator, the greatsword rev spec where half of its new weapon skills recycle the auto-attack basic slash animation, and are generally so generic that they feel straight out of a reject warrior.

By EoD's low standards, Virtuoso is one of the better specs this expansion has to offer.

You are both right and wrong I'd say. For Catalyst, you gotta consider that hammer is a pretty involved weapon and with a LOT of skills on it (there is a reason the previous ele specs didn't get two-handed weapons). Compare that to Virtuoso dagger...

However I agree that Vindicator and Willbender is quite lazy. Though Vindi do get a lot of skills too since their new legend has two sets.

Edited March 11, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

9 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

You know whats the funniest thing about relying on block as your focal point of mechanics? One unblockable can completely decimate you, and the game isn't short of that at all. 

Also this build uses celestial stats, sorry to say it isnt the build that is good or the class that is good its being carried by celesital stats, celestial statline is one of the most kitten thing ANET balance team has done. Giving free stats without nerfing the overall base statline is completely mind blowing.

You can slap celestial stats to almost any class that has a bit of condi damage and call it a day.

Yeah Chrono shield was already kinda bad on squishier builds due to how much stuff like daredevil steal kittens you over, now on Virtuoso basically all defense is in blocks and we have Bladesworns and Revs running loose.

Edited March 11, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@mortrialus.3062 I also wanted a cloneless spec but an original one, a domination machine with a ton of shutdowns instead we got more of the same minus clones.

@agrippastrilemma.8741both@agrippastrilemma.8741both F3 and F4 are bad, F2 is good tho. But the bread and butter is F1 whose CD is the same. 

@Skyroar.2974 the theme is garbage, psionic musician who shoots daggers. Every other spec thematic is kind of consistent, Virt is disjointed trash. 

[Skyroar.2974]

11 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Skyroar.2974 the theme is garbage, psionic musician who shoots daggers. Every other spec thematic is kind of consistent, Virt is disjointed trash. 

The musical theme is tacked on, but Virtuoso is essentially/ 99% a psychic bladedancer, with the word "song" thrown in for no apparent reason. And finding that theme "garbage" is completely subjective. I personally love it, even if I feel it could have been further developed.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I to this day honestly dont understand why its called Virtuoso instead of Bladedancer.