The Increasing Toxicity in the Community

[Astralporing.1957]

25 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, then you are saying that Anet, with some content, is responsible for causing toxic behavior... in your view that is. The problem I have with your definition of toxic is that I don't agree that it's always toxic when people set requirements.

You are not listening. I never said it is always toxic. I said that toxicity is more likely to happen in such environment. And yes, Anet by constantly trying to force casual and hardcore players together, or by putting more hardcore-focused roadblocks in front of mostly casual players are responsible, at least partially, for an increase in toxicity.

It's like constantly asking greenpeace members to go on a hunting trip - it just cannot end well.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[lain.3148]

 i kind of regret making this thread... ofc a lot of ppl are just using it to be toxic 😕


if anyone wants my opinion after thinking about it for a while: imo where a lot of the toxicity comes from is that gw2's combat system is actually quite difficult skill-wise. Getting good enough at a rotation to be able to do it while focusing on other things, being able to dodge enough aoes that you can wear full damage stats and not down constantly, etc. This is not something that many people enjoy putting in a lot of practice to be able to do or are even capable of doing no matter how much they practice. This huge gap is reflected in the stat that the top damage players often end up doing 10 times as much damage as most other players.
 

Do you really think its healthy in a game like gw2 for there to be such a big gap? that, basically, in an open world meta, if there are 5 pro gamer players in a 50 player squad they will often end up doing more damage than the entire other 45 players? Right now the game is in a state where most meta events basically get carried by the dps of a few players. Ofc this will breed toxicity. The players who are doing the majority of damage may feel like the rest of  the players are leeching and the players who arent doing that much damage may feel frustrated and like they're not helping. And when things go wrong, like the event failing, some people will verbalize these feelings and frustrations in chat, often directed at other players.

A lot of the toxicity i've seen in game is about DPS. Even if toxic conversations/arguments end up going in weird tangents, they often seem to initially be about DPS. Obviously, there being such a huge gap between what DPS different players are capable of contributes to this toxicity a lot.

IDK if i can see anet doing any major changes that could help fix this though. if anything their recent attempts at making the open world content harder has made it worse, since doing okay dps is starting to become more important even in the open world. But i also dont think its really fair or okay in a game thats supposed to be focused on catering to all types of players that there is such a huge floor to doing acceptable damage.

TLDR: DE toxicity was mostly about DPS that i saw. if it was easier to do okay dps there would be less of that sort of toxicity. it being hard for most players to do okay dps is majorly contributing to that kind of toxicity.

("hard" is relative. pls do not reply just to say its not that hard to do okay dps. as shown by the 10x stat, it is hard enough that most players can not do it)

Edited March 16, 2022 by lain.3148

[lrdmilano.8746]

Some people have a hard time these days, dealing with not being able to control their environment to the point of calling an entire game "Toxic," because they are uncomfortable with other players words. Our comfort level is in my opinion, no one else's responsibility. I've found everyone to be very helpful.

[Naxos.2503]

It's all about expectations for the most part... And I completely agree with what Astralporing said above based on that.

Dedicated and skilled players who seek Efficiency being forced to group up with more down to earth and average players who just try to have a good time and vice versa.

The skilled players expect everyone to be on their level of skill, and the casual players expect everyone else to not be too focused on efficiency. Neither have a Responsability toward the other either. The skilled players shouldn't be expected to take the more casual ones under their wing, and the casual players shouldn't be expected to sacrifice their fun for the sake of success. 

If the two groups are Forced to take part in the same activity together, even if it's with different objectives in mind, that is bound to cause frictions. Guild Wars 2's PvE is about 90% casual friendly, with encounters that can easily be resolved through basic teamwork and average skill. The rest of the PvE content, challenge fractals, strikes and Raids require more commitment and know-how, although there has been effort made by the team to provide steps in between those skill levels, the expectations of the two types of players have not changed. Highly skilled players expect casuals to fly through these, and casuals expect the others to take their time and tolerate some failure. WvW and PvP are similarly facing similar woes, but since the setup is competitive, casuals mostly accept to be on a lower part of the foodchain, so long as they can still complete objectives.

It is by no means a simple problem to go through.

[Solstice.5790]

If we had the same filter for forums, it would definitely help the quality of our discussions though.

[kharmin.7683]

8 minutes ago, Solstice.5790 said:

If we had the same filter for forums, it would definitely help the quality of our discussions though.

Sure.  Because censorship is always the answer.

[Solstice.5790]

I think trying to understand the person you're talking to is.

So blanket statements like yours, or

 

27 minutes ago, Reinforcments.5713 said:

I mean most people just suck at this game.

 

don't really solve anything.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Solstice.5790 said:

I think trying to understand the person you're talking to is.

 

That's hard to reconcile with:

1 hour ago, Solstice.5790 said:

If we had the same filter for forums, it would definitely help the quality of our discussions though.

 

[Solstice.5790]

No, because I'm not talking about excluding anyone.

"Trying to understand" is still the exact answer for both a benchmark on how to play your class well as well as having a decent forum conversation.

If you spend some time with your gear and build, you'll figure out how to be more efficient and successful in your role. If you spend some time with the thoughts and writings of another person, you'll be more successful in having a conversation. No filters needed for either of those.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Solstice.5790

[Gibson.4036]

I really am trying to understand what you're saying, but I'm genuinely confused (though I didn't place the confused emoji).

When someone says there should be a skill benchmark to filter people out of the game, and you say we should have a similar filter for the forums, I'm lost as to how to interpret that differently than excluding people.

[Solstice.5790]

That's the point.

We shouldn't have (to have) either of these filters. Not for the "majority of people who just suck at the game and should be filtered out" according to someone, and neither for forum posters like that someone.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Solstice.5790

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, Solstice.5790 said:

That's the point.

We shouldn't have (to have) either of these filters. Not for the "majority of people who just suck at the game and should be filtered out" according to someone, and neither for forum posters like that someone.

Ah, okay. I think I understand your intent now.

[Solstice.5790]

I know it's still a bit un-elaborate and not very precise, but I'm just horribly lazy when it comes to typing.

 

Imo a lot of the "toxicity" that has come up recently stems from people being passionate about the game, which is cool, but personal opinions about certain aspects absolutely overshadow anyone else's view - to the point where this other point of view is simply denied any value or importance whatsoever.

If you enjoy WvW / PvP and the competitive nature, the permanent chaos of what build the other guy uses, or what classes they bring, that's great. But if someone doesn't and prefers the more structured strikes or raids, that person isn't bad at the game. He/she doesn't need to git gud, put in the effort or l2p. If you enjoy story content, the scenery of the maps and exploration, maybe rp'ing, that's wonderful. Doesn't make you a filthy "PvE-casual".

But everyone enjoys some part of the game over another, open world players will have difficulties in CM raids, WvWers will be annoyed by world exploration - there are a lot of ways in which the content one person enjoys can really frustrate and deter another. That doesn't mean that other person is wrong, or bad. Or not worth being treated with respect.

 

If someone speaks out about their frustrations, they ask for help. And I think a lot of us, including myself sometimes, have turned from actually offering help, and trying to understand the issue behind that frustration,  to making snarky comments and writing those people off.

 

So in a strange way: Today, as passionate as we are for the game, as little do we care for the people we play with.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Solstice.5790

[Jski.6180]

This is all on anet they keep adding in exclusive content to classes and keep excluding other classes from that content. Even these forms have gotten more toxicity due to "up and down votes" emotes.

Anet is destroying its "nice" community of players.

[Raizel.8175]

53 minutes ago, Solstice.5790 said:

[...]

Imo a lot of the "toxicity" that has come up recently stems from people being passionate about the game, which is cool, but personal opinions about certain aspects absolutely overshadow anyone else's view - to the point where this other point of view is simply denied any value or importance whatsoever.

[...]

Nah.

The overwhelming amount of toxicity during the last few days stems from an audience that doesn't want to engage with the game properly. People, who want to play the game as some sort of interactive movie instead of a game; people, who downright refuse to do any instanced content; people, who don't even bother with fundamental game mechanics; people, who don't want to communicate with other people... in a MMORPG... ever. Please don't call these people passionate. They aren't. Passionate people would at least bother with fundamental game mechanics and would try to understand the flaws the game has.

[Gibson.4036]

8 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Nah.

The overwhelming amount of toxicity during the last few days stems from an audience that doesn't want to engage with the game properly. 

I'd say a lot of community friction comes out of various groups thinking they get to decide the definition of engaging the game properly.

[Raizel.8175]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I'd say a lot of community friction comes out of various groups thinking they get to decide the definition of engaging the game properly.

No. You should at least expect that people inform themselves about the general rules of the game they're playing. That's all the more true for a MMORPG in which you always enter into some sort of social contract with the community. In MMORPGs, you also should expect that you'll have to play cooperatively with other players. Yet there are people who just want to play this game as some sort of single player experience while also not bothering with fundamental game mechanics. Those people are first and foremost the driving force behind the current toxicity. I won't deny that there is also toxicity from "up there", but that's nothing in comparison to the toxicity from "down there".

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

No. You should at least expect that people inform themselves about the general rules of the game they're playing. That's all the more true for a MMORPG in which you always enter into some sort of social contract with the community. In MMORPGs, you also should expect that you'll have to play cooperatively with other players. Yet there are people who just want to play this game as some sort of single player experience while also not bothering with fundamental game mechanics. Those people are first and foremost the driving force behind the current toxicity. I won't deny that there is also toxicity from "up there", but that's nothing in comparison to the toxicity from "down there".

This is kind of what I was refering to.

Yes, I've seen players comment who really do seem to want to play the game almost as a single player game.

There's also a lot of people, though, who aren't solo players, but who aren't interested in playing in a highly optimized group, either. These players continually get accused of wanting to play the game solo, even though they play socially all the time, and want to. They continually get accused of wanting to autoattack through the game, as if there's no gameplay between pressing 1111 and establishing 5 player groups with maximized boon output and everyone shooting for ideal skill rotations.

While I don't care for the word "toxicity", a ton of it has to do with people not trying to understand the people they disagree with, and lumping everything into the two extremes of a false dichotomy.

[Gibson.4036]

50 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

That's always the discussion-ending argument people keep using, no matter how fundamentally wrong it is. You don't even need super optimzied and specialized builds and skill rotations for raids. As long as it works, it works. There are several "simplified" builds with very easy skill rotations - if there even is the need for a skill rotation since some builds just focus on button mashing. You also don't need an optimized build - or purely DPS-focussed equipment - for EoD-content. Your build should at least be decent though. Is it too much to expect that people spend like 10 minutes to read their traits and what their stats actually do? I'd feel like insulting someones intelligence if I were to explain such basic mechanics almost like I'd be talking to a kindergartener.

Of course it's not too much to expect. And there are plenty of people who try to move out of ground markings, dodge, try to blast a fire field if they can, and know which of their skills most reduces a blue bar, but don't enjoy 10 or 5 person instances, and don't enjoy punishing metas. When they express that, though, they get treated as if they want everything handed to them for logging in and want to autoattack through the whole game.

[Raizel.8175]

31 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Of course it's not too much to expect. And there are plenty of people who try to move out of ground markings, dodge, try to blast a fire field if they can, and know which of their skills most reduces a blue bar, but don't enjoy 10 or 5 person instances, and don't enjoy punishing metas. When they express that, though, they get treated as if they want everything handed to them for logging in and want to autoattack through the whole game.

Yeah, but you also can't expect that everything in this game is going to be a walk in the park. What's wrong with expecting people to concentrate for 20 minutes during a more intense meta event?

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Yeah, but you also can't expect that everything in this game is going to be a walk in the park. What's wrong with expecting people to concentrate for 20 minutes during a more intense meta event?

One persons walk in the park may be another’s moderate challenge, but that’s getting really hypothetical.

There’s nothing wrong with expecting people to concentrate for twenty minutes. Did someone say there was?

[Hesione.9412]

It's not necessarily a lack of player skill, it's also the visual pollution that Anet keeps adding with every new boss encounter. There's so much different coloured AoEs on the ground, a lot of which overlap, and some of which are beneficial - either from the encounter or from player support - it's kitten difficult to see sometimes where to stand. Add to that boss or other NPCs cluttering up the space, plus 50 players standing in various places, there is too much visual pollution. If it could be a simple as: green is good, white is neutral, and red is bad, that would help a lot.

[Raizel.8175]

6 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

It's not necessarily a lack of player skill, it's also the visual pollution that Anet keeps adding with every new boss encounter. There's so much different coloured AoEs on the ground, a lot of which overlap, and some of which are beneficial - either from the encounter or from player support - it's kitten difficult to see sometimes where to stand. Add to that boss or other NPCs cluttering up the space, plus 50 players standing in various places, there is too much visual pollution. If it could be a simple as: green is good, white is neutral, and red is bad, that would help a lot.

To be honest, the only things that really kill you are the quite well telegraphed attacks of Soo Won. I do agree that there is too much visual noise though - even though it isn't on the level like - for example - DBS.

[Labjax.2465]

6 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

No. You should at least expect that people inform themselves about the general rules of the game they're playing. That's all the more true for a MMORPG in which you always enter into some sort of social contract with the community. In MMORPGs, you also should expect that you'll have to play cooperatively with other players. Yet there are people who just want to play this game as some sort of single player experience while also not bothering with fundamental game mechanics. Those people are first and foremost the driving force behind the current toxicity. I won't deny that there is also toxicity from "up there", but that's nothing in comparison to the toxicity from "down there".

Nah, this is a bunch of nonsense. There is nothing toxic about wanting to play the game in a lax way. If you enter into instanced content that is designed to be challenging AND you expect people to carry you and accommodate you screwing up without you having to try, then yes, that would be a messed up thing to do. But the toxicity of late coming from EoD is no such thing. Most open world content does not require much commitment or effort and it is odd for people to be suddenly expected to treat it like a tightly tuned raid.

There is a huge difference between playing lax and not being cooperative and you appear to be conflating the two (plenty of "elite" players are terrible at being cooperative, for example when they go off on other people for making mistakes, which is antithetical to teamwork and cooperation). Lots of people will try to do better if you approach them in a friendly way and help them do it. OTOH, if you do what a lot of elitist players will tend to do and talk down to those who are struggling, or condescend to them under the guise of "helping," then rejection of the so-called "help" should be expected.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

5 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

It's not necessarily a lack of player skill, it's also the visual pollution that Anet keeps adding with every new boss encounter. There's so much different coloured AoEs on the ground, a lot of which overlap, and some of which are beneficial - either from the encounter or from player support - it's kitten difficult to see sometimes where to stand. Add to that boss or other NPCs cluttering up the space, plus 50 players standing in various places, there is too much visual pollution. If it could be a simple as: green is good, white is neutral, and red is bad, that would help a lot.

 

This is why I avoid all metas and most fights in this game. Even with "Best Performance" I find it a pain at times to see stuff because of all the visual noise this game throws at you. GW2 is not the only one of course who does this. There are too many games that think increased visual noise is good because it adds "challenge" when in reality it just kills people because they can't see stuff coming at them.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Doctor Hide.6345