Why PVE necros can't have nice things

[Axl.8924]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:20 PM, Legend of Rogue.5394 said:

I would argue only in strikes, dungeons fractals. You get into a boss meta it really has no effect when you and 100 other people are taking down their health. Literally you can heal and single auto and really are going to beat PVE.... Maybe the EOD meta shifted with the final boss but every other boss in the game really does not matter at all.... Maybe some niche specific classes cant but you take the mains: Necro, Guardian, Rev, Thief, Ranger their builds can alt between the 2. 

 

There is a bit of a meta race while its true other stuff can be equally as important damage is still very very important Say for instance If: Necro had similar utility it had now but you took out all damage would anyone take them? prob not because people like short cut and why wouldn't they take anything else? same goes for any other class people take shortcuts to faster runs and safe.

There is a reason why for instance certain builds of classes are desired more for CM runs in fractals and its because it makes it easier. If a class takes longer is harder and more likely to die then people will be less likely to take the path of least resistance Unless of course you do something that gives a reason to take said class.

 

Its why you have classes who are designated offensive  for instance carry some DPS and can heal and buff certain things are simply wanted more than others and if you want to be desired then yeah for later fractals you should have.

this is one reason why people complain about virtuoso being the way it is. Look at willbender with higher condi dps than for instance  firebrand. That in itself gives a reason to bring willbender because it does offer good dps.

Survivability is a important aspect in pve too and kinda effects if you can do open world.A good example: DH works in pve good damage in power good survival pretty solid overall.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Hallow.7368]

On 3/15/2022 at 10:30 AM, Wintermute.5408 said:

This thread brought to you by pure 🧂🧂🧂

Necro has been historically garbage in endgame PVE, for almost entirety of the game's life time.

In vanilla, it was absolutely worthless. No buffs, no boons, no combo fields, no damage. If you mained necro in vanilla, you were automatically excluded from endgame content of the time, and got kicked from dungeon runs literally on sight. I swear, out of 3 dungeon runs total I managed to pull off back in the day, all 3 were because people assumed I was a girl. Yay human female meta.

In HoT, it was garbage. The fact that Reaper was seen as massive improvement by necro community, while still remaining absolutely worthless by any PVE metric, should tell you enough. Since HoT release, over the course of literal years, Reaper managed to heroically claw its way from "absolute trash" to "one of the worst power specs in the game". What a crowning achievement of class balance. Now it got nerfed, because of course it did.

In PoF, it was broken. Scourge on release proudly claimed the title of "the most bugged piece of kitten ever". Over the course of a few weeks post release it established itself as best condi spec in the game, best power spec in the game (yes, power Scourge was a thing), then got nerfed into the ground, and THEN got bugfixed into absolute non-viability. The only thing it had of value by the end of that ride was Epidemic, which, naturally, got nerfed in the process. It took several years for torment change to arrive, and give condi Scourge competitive damage numbers by what I can only assume to be an oversight on anets side. Scourge became viable, for less than a year. Obviously, it had to get nerfed. Together with epidemic, again, because kitten you for playing necro.

There was also a "support" Scourge. It was deemed not worthy of having ANY useful boon support capacity, for reasons really obvious to anybody maining that cursed class. It was allowed though to have a little bit of uniqueness, in having absolute trash healing capacity, yet providing barriers alongside. Which was a novel concept in the day, and had its place in endgame PVE for damage prevention. Obviously it had to be nerfed on EOD release, new barrier numbers with healing gear barely able to reach old barrier numbers without. However, what is really great about class balance in EOD, is appearance of Mechanist, who is able to properly heal, provide HIGHER barrier numbers than heal scourge, while giving an array of boons and alac. With an absolutely braindead mech doing most of the job. Hurray.

And now we get Harbinger, trading away all of the necro survivability (which got nerfed anyway for the other necros). Being literally the worst quickness option you can take in the slot, with neither utility nor damage other quickness classes provide. However, by what I can only assume to be a bug, DPS Harbinger is able to deal high DPS (not the highest though). I humbly ask anet to investigate that unfortunate bug, and bring Harbinger damage numbers in line with something like 20k DPS, to keep the necro theme of being a class for masochists going.

TLDR: I really don't know why I even bother for so long -_-

This entire posts screams "I am biased and really do not know what I am talking about".

 

It's about perception. Just because someone told you it was bad doesn't mean it is. Can't speak much for vanilla, HoT or PoF release.. but claiming it has only been "viable" for a year is not true. It was, if anything, overpowered prior to the buff it got, but wasn't picked because for whatever reason people get their sense of meta from a website made by speed runners for speed runners. The buff just made it so insanely broken that it was pretty hard to ignore after that. It doesn't matter that they don't have boons because they make your group so much harder to kill and can peel people off the floor over and over and over again. Post EoD nerfs scourge is still leagues ahead of any other support in terms of actually increasing your winrate in an encounter. If mechanist, firebrand, bannerslave are S tier then scourge is above that in it's own "scourge" tier. Reaper has (in recent history) never been bad either. Nerfs definitely either weren't needed or were at the very least a large over shot, but even still the class is still better than some of the hot garbage like untamed, spellbreaker and core classes. Harbinger is also like really really good. Ritualist harbinger specifically applies quickness literally just by doing it's DPS rotation (because the quickness just pulses while you're in shroud). It's roughly on par with quick catalyst (which is a harder class to play) and firebrand is just still in need of nerfs. I'm also not really sure what you're talking about DPS wise? But it seems like you definitely have no idea what you're talking about? DPS harb is benching 41k on snow crows (insanely high) with DPS scourge at 37k (very strong) and you want them to make harb do at least 20k? I hope this is sarcasm cause it ain't exactly anets fault if you have "auto attack only" syndrome.

[Agrippa.1693]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:45 PM, Poelala.2830 said:

Didn’t read but hasn’t necro been a top two choice in all end game content for years? That’s a good thing I think 

These kind of posts create such a wrong view. It's actually the opposite. Necro has been the top 2 worst choice for I don't know how many years (8 at least) in PvE endgame content. It's only since the Torment change which was 11 may 2021 - so less than a year ago - that the Scourge earned a consistent spot in the top 5 in PvE endgame content, together with Renegade, Firebrand, Druid (still) and Berserker (still). Actually one of the worst classes at the moment (considered by quite a few) has been the most consistently asked-for class in PvE endgame since 2012: The Warrior. (And don't forget the dreaded Ele with it's absolute reign in the early years of the game).

So if you consider time in the balancing equation, it's only fair that the Necro (and it's specs) takes the crown now, for at least a few more years to come!

[Carnage.6751]

On 3/15/2022 at 5:30 PM, Wintermute.5408 said:

This thread brought to you by pure 🧂🧂🧂

Necro has been historically garbage in endgame PVE, for almost entirety of the game's life time.

In vanilla, it was absolutely worthless. No buffs, no boons, no combo fields, no damage. If you mained necro in vanilla, you were automatically excluded from endgame content of the time, and got kicked from dungeon runs literally on sight. I swear, out of 3 dungeon runs total I managed to pull off back in the day, all 3 were because people assumed I was a girl. Yay human female meta.

In HoT, it was garbage. The fact that Reaper was seen as massive improvement by necro community, while still remaining absolutely worthless by any PVE metric, should tell you enough. Since HoT release, over the course of literal years, Reaper managed to heroically claw its way from "absolute trash" to "one of the worst power specs in the game". What a crowning achievement of class balance. Now it got nerfed, because of course it did.

In PoF, it was broken. Scourge on release proudly claimed the title of "the most bugged piece of kitten ever". Over the course of a few weeks post release it established itself as best condi spec in the game, best power spec in the game (yes, power Scourge was a thing), then got nerfed into the ground, and THEN got bugfixed into absolute non-viability. The only thing it had of value by the end of that ride was Epidemic, which, naturally, got nerfed in the process. It took several years for torment change to arrive, and give condi Scourge competitive damage numbers by what I can only assume to be an oversight on anets side. Scourge became viable, for less than a year. Obviously, it had to get nerfed. Together with epidemic, again, because kitten you for playing necro.

There was also a "support" Scourge. It was deemed not worthy of having ANY useful boon support capacity, for reasons really obvious to anybody maining that cursed class. It was allowed though to have a little bit of uniqueness, in having absolute trash healing capacity, yet providing barriers alongside. Which was a novel concept in the day, and had its place in endgame PVE for damage prevention. Obviously it had to be nerfed on EOD release, new barrier numbers with healing gear barely able to reach old barrier numbers without. However, what is really great about class balance in EOD, is appearance of Mechanist, who is able to properly heal, provide HIGHER barrier numbers than heal scourge, while giving an array of boons and alac. With an absolutely braindead mech doing most of the job. Hurray.

And now we get Harbinger, trading away all of the necro survivability (which got nerfed anyway for the other necros). Being literally the worst quickness option you can take in the slot, with neither utility nor damage other quickness classes provide. However, by what I can only assume to be a bug, DPS Harbinger is able to deal high DPS (not the highest though). I humbly ask anet to investigate that unfortunate bug, and bring Harbinger damage numbers in line with something like 20k DPS, to keep the necro theme of being a class for masochists going.

TLDR: I really don't know why I even bother for so long -_-

People like this makes me hate about Necromancer mains.This unsatiable hunger of u.Until sigil of torment nerf  raids were carried by scourges.I create a necromancer specificly for Raids because it was so popular and strong.Before EOD in PVP Reapers and Scourge claim to meta and after that spvp overrun by harbinger players.I'm not playing WvW so I'll not talk about that.So while making each profession good for specific mode.You are here "WHY NECROMANCERS ARE NOT GOOD AT EVERYTHİNG?"Yeah guys lets give necromancers 3 teleport also stealth.While it have shroud ,boon corruption ,fear and lifesteal.SMH

Edited May 24, 2022 by Carnage.6751

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Carnage.6751 said:

People like this makes me hate about Necromancer mains.This unsatiable hunger of u.Until sigil of torment nerf  raids were carried by scourges.I create a necromancer specificly for Raids because it was so popular and strong.Before EOD in PVP Reapers and Scourge claim to meta and after that spvp overrun by harbinger players.I'm not playing WvW so I'll not talk about that.So while making each profession good for specific mode.You are here "WHY NECROMANCERS ARE NOT GOOD AT EVERYTHİNG?"Yeah guys lets give necromancers 3 teleport also stealth.While it have shroud ,boon corruption ,fear and lifesteal.SMH

You need to have been at the bottom for a long time to know hunger.

The thread is specifically about PvE (it's even in the title) and the necromancer only started to leave the bottom and be "meta" in PvE end game in the second half of PoF.

[ZDragon.3046]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:20 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

 

The selfish design of Reaper means he do not benefit as much as other DPS from being in a party.
IMO the only thing Reaper need is for this selfishness to boost the ability of party mates at boosting its own DPS selfishly.
Only boon Reaper can't give himself is Alacrity, which an organized would provide.

Extra effect on Reaper's Onslaught.
+ Alacrity grants you increased strike damage.
+ Strike damage increase: 10%

According to SC benchmarks, it would make Reaper DPS go from 34k to 37k.
From low to the middle. A fine result.

Self providing alacrity wont make a dps increase unless your alacrity giver is not there and even then your dps would still be 34k 

What makes the difference in the numbers you are speaking is the idea of changing a flat ferocity boost to a 10 % percentage based boost to all damage on critical and non critical hits. Percentage based multipliers are always stronger than fixed number stats. 

If you really want to boost reapers dps change the close to death trait to start scaling your dps before sub 50% 

5% at all times > increases to 10% at 75% hp and lower > and finally increase to 20% at 50% and lower.

You could even go as far to update signet of spites passive to be a 10% strike damage increase rather than 180 flat power increase similar to mechanist signet. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[ZDragon.3046]

5 hours ago, Carnage.6751 said:

People like this makes me hate about Necromancer mains.This unsatiable hunger of u.Until sigil of torment nerf  raids were carried by scourges.I create a necromancer specificly for Raids because it was so popular and strong.Before EOD in PVP Reapers and Scourge claim to meta and after that spvp overrun by harbinger players.I'm not playing WvW so I'll not talk about that.So while making each profession good for specific mode.You are here "WHY NECROMANCERS ARE NOT GOOD AT EVERYTHİNG?"Yeah guys lets give necromancers 3 teleport also stealth.While it have shroud ,boon corruption ,fear and lifesteal.SMH

im so confused by your statements....

Necromancer is still not good at a lot of things.  Damage in raito to its ease of play is one of the few things it has going for it in pve but it still cant be an effective tank or nearly as good of a healer as many other specs can. It just got a viable boon support option and even then its primay focus is offensive boons and only offensive boons leaving alot of room for other specs to provide those same offensive boons and more. 

In terms of pvp im confused because people cried up and down about necro having shroud to protect its hp being op then they cried about barrier now necro finally has a shroud that wont protect it or any barrier and people think its unfair that it hits hard for not having those things when other classes still hit harder. 

Its good at some things but not good at everything if you think its good at everything you havent been playing long enough or you are here to purposely gaslight and cause chaos in hopes that maybe it ends in a nerf some where that likely wont fix anything you dislike about the class. 

[Kulvar.1239]

On 5/24/2022 at 9:38 PM, ZDragon.3046 said:

Self providing alacrity wont make a dps increase unless your alacrity giver is not there and even then your dps would still be 34k 

What makes the difference in the numbers you are speaking is the idea of changing a flat ferocity boost to a 10 % percentage based boost to all damage on critical and non critical hits. Percentage based multipliers are always stronger than fixed number stats. 

If you really want to boost reapers dps change the close to death trait to start scaling your dps before sub 50% 

5% at all times > increases to 10% at 75% hp and lower > and finally increase to 20% at 50% and lower.

You could even go as far to update signet of spites passive to be a 10% strike damage increase rather than 180 flat power increase similar to mechanist signet. 

That's the point. Did you read? I suggested something that would boost Reaper DPS WITH A PARTY.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

That's the point. Did you read? I suggested something that would boost Reaper DPS WITH A PARTY.

I think that's a dead end in people's thinking ... Reaper isn't desirable for more significant reasons than DPS, regardless of whether it's team-sourced or self. Again, the tired idea that people building an optimal team will take a Reaper for it's DPS if that DPS isn't meta ... doesn't make sense. 

I mean, what's left for a team to give it for DPS boost anyways? It selfs quickness, capping crit is a joke on it. It gets massive ferocity. Might and vuln applications and any team level buffs like Assassin's Presence on a boss are team relative, i.e., everyone benefits from those things pretty evenly. 

The only real way I can see Reaper getting DPS boosted is just some direct increase to coefficients in shroud or a mechanic to reduce shroud CD. That won't come from a team.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:53 PM, Hallow.7368 said:

This entire posts screams "I am biased and really do not know what I am talking about".

 

It's about perception. Just because someone told you it was bad doesn't mean it is. Can't speak much for vanilla, HoT or PoF release.. but claiming it has only been "viable" for a year is not true. It was, if anything, overpowered prior to the buff it got, but wasn't picked because for whatever reason people get their sense of meta from a website made by speed runners for speed runners

It didnt get used because it was "OP" bexause it could allow bad players to win, it is effectively a build you would baby your pug raid with. 

If your team is competent at the game however Scourge starts falling off. 

[ZDragon.3046]

 

On 5/29/2022 at 2:58 PM, Kulvar.1239 said:

That's the point. Did you read? I suggested something that would boost Reaper DPS WITH A PARTY.

hmmmm ahh i see i misread that a bit.

Its a horrible idea though. Dont make traits that depend on another person giving you a boon no other class has this no reason reaper should either. A boon giving you a dps increase should mean that you can always give yourself that boon. Thats how it works on every other class.

 

If you want reaper increased dps the best option is still updating signet of spite to to increase strike damage by a percent rather than increasing base power.

OR

Reworking the close to death trait to start scaling at higher health percentages. getting a 20% boost at 50% hp and lower is nice but the quicker the fight the less value this trait has to shine. 

5% all the time

increases to 10% at 75% hp or lower

increases to 20% at 50% hp or lower 

 

Now you are getting a small boost that slowly scales up throughout the entire fight rather than nothing for the first half of it. 

[Radina.6057]

We are talking about Reaper with Berserker gear in a group setup, right?

 

There are a bunch of reasons why he sucks. 

The current benchmark is at 34k. Sounds great, until you take a look at it and see that you have to prematurely end some skills. Learning that alone is already a bigger time investment than just learning something like zerk Soulbeast. If you just ignore the animation clipping your damage tanks.

Next issue is the shroud itself. You need the full bar for your damage rotation. Every arena tick, every AoE you tank, every mistake will reduce your damage by a alot. Every other dps, including the squishy harbinger, will be able to stand there, eat the tick, and go on with his life without any problem.

 

The reason some Reapers are still able to pull ahead is not because their Spec hands them all the tools they need, but because they love the Spec, and played it for countless hours to get to where they are. There are a large amount of low effort builds that outdps any decent Reaper.

 

The extreme Focus on the Reapershroud for damage is his curse. The Spec does well in a solo open world situation, but what spec doesnt?

Edited June 11, 2022 by Radina.6057

[Methuselah.4376]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:21 PM, ZDragon.3046 said:

If you want reaper increased dps the best option is still updating signet of spite to to increase strike damage by a percent rather than increasing base power.

OR

Reworking the close to death trait to start scaling at higher health percentages. getting a 20% boost at 50% hp and lower is nice but the quicker the fight the less value this trait has to shine. 

5% all the time

increases to 10% at 75% hp or lower

increases to 20% at 50% hp or lower 

 

Now you are getting a small boost that slowly scales up throughout the entire fight rather than nothing for the first half of it. 

I once proposed changes to the core lines that effected power damage which could be accessed across all the specs, similar to your suggestion. 

I would add a +10% strike damage modifier on Siphoned Power when under the effects of might and Unyielding Blast also gives a +5% damage modifier against enemies with vulnerability. The modifiers synergize well with what the traits/traitlines inherently do so there's an interaction that needs to happen and it's not just a boring flat extra  damage. This also means that it's not busted because might can be removed and vulnerability can be cleansed.  

This is what's missing from necromancer: decent damage modifiers on core traitlines. I'd adjust Soul Barbs to lasting 15 seconds, and Gravedigger always being a critical strike. These should put power Reaper at a comfortable 39k benchmark. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

Necro can't have nice thing, because Obtena and co comes crying that necro has one OP skill, that made necro actually good in one part of content

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Necro can't have nice thing, because Obtena and co comes crying that necro has one OP skill, that made necro actually good in one part of content

I'm flattered you think I'm so influential but that's just not the case. What I can assure you of is that the most influential content on the forums is that which shows the best understanding of what Anet's game design intent is and how they want the game to work. If you can't see how obviously OP'ed skills like Epidemic were holding Necro back from the chance of getting a broader, more reasonable set of skills, then you have a long way to go to every being able to make good forum content. 

Ironically, necro isn't actually in as bad a place as the OP QQ's about ... so yeah, if you want to attribute that to 'Obtena and Co' ...  thanks I guess. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm flattered you think I'm so influential but that's just not the case. What I can assure you of is that the most influential content on the forums is that which shows the best understanding of what Anet's game design intent is and how they want the game to work. If you can't see how obviously OP'ed skills like Epidemic were holding Necro back from the chance of getting a broader, more reasonable set of skills, then you have a long way to go to every being able to make good forum content. 

Ironically, necro isn't actually in as bad a place as the OP QQ's about ... so yeah, if you want to attribute that to 'Obtena and Co' ...  thanks I guess. 

 

Its not bad for example reaper is still great but its not exactly up to par with the new specs for a spec that only brings dps, cc, and ease of play but then again you can do minimum effort on virtuoso and hold 30k I dont think its bad to ask for power builds to be brought up a bit. Power reaper and power harb are kind of lacking then again most power. builds are lacking. 

 

Its not to much for people to want increases to things like power reaper and im not talking about making it 45k or something like that but it most certainly could be better. 

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

 

Its not bad for example reaper is still great but its not exactly up to par with the new specs for a spec that only brings dps, cc, and ease of play but then again you can do minimum effort on virtuoso and hold 30k I dont think its bad to ask for power builds to be brought up a bit. Power reaper and power harb are kind of lacking then again most power. builds are lacking. 

 

Its not to much for people to want increases to things like power reaper and im not talking about making it 45k or something like that but it most certainly could be better. 

Well, here is the thing about that. As an example, Reaper HAS benefitted from this kind of DPS increase over time but we still see complaints. So this isn't really about could be better because take ANYTHING in this game ... it could always be buffed to be better, even if it was already OP (hey, it's actually happened so...). The real question is IF it NEEDS to be better and WHY.  

Specifically for Reaper ... I would promote an offensive team buff ANY DAY over just another DPS increase because DPS isn't what gets a team; support does. The reality is that people just don't understand why they don't get teams with specific specs and in most cases, making dps better just doesn't do it, even though that's almost always the thing they say they want to fix it. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, here is the thing about that. As an example, Reaper has benefitted from this kind of DPS increase over time. It's not about could be better, because take ANYTHING in this game ... it could always be buffed to be better, even if it's OP. The real question is IF it NEEDS to be better. 

Specifically for Reaper ... I would take an offensive team buff ANY DAY over just another little DPS increase because one has meaning to a wider group of people than the other does. 

in comparisons to new specs that only provide dps i say yes it needs to be better.

Sadly anet is going away from giving out group effect buffs which is why the banner and spirit changes are coming.  So I dont see that happening not to mention reaper has literally not an ounce of party share anything on its weapons, utility, or traits it would be strange. Also if it means giving up any of the dps traits to give out that gorup buff it wont be used especially if its minimal like the blood magic life leeching group buff you wont see people giving up personal dps for a group dps buff if their damage is already sitting on the lower side us dps players are very greedy you see. 

Im not asking if anything could be buffed to be better im specifically looking at older content in comparison to newer content that provide the same things, just damage. I love reaper i think its great, I still play it over newer specs sometimes, but I would like it to be a bit better. 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

in comparisons to new specs that only provide dps i say yes it needs to be better.

Sadly anet is going away from giving out group effect buffs which is why the banner and spirit changes are coming.  So I dont see that happening not to mention reaper has literally not an ounce of party share anything on its weapons, utility, or traits it would be strange. Also if it means giving up any of the dps traits to give out that gorup buff it wont be used especially if its minimal like the blood magic life leeching group buff you wont see people giving up personal dps for a group dps buff if their damage is already sitting on the lower side us dps players are very greedy you see. 

Im not asking if anything could be buffed to be better im specifically looking at older content in comparison to newer content that provide the same things, just damage. I love reaper i think its great, I still play it over newer specs sometimes, but I would like it to be a bit better. 

Again, the question is what you are trying to achieve. If you just want more acceptance in PUG's, DPS isn't the answer.

If you just want the game to be more 'fair' ... In the 10 years this game exists, there has been no evidence Anet is attempting to balance specs with some DPS target. So how is comparing DPS between especs even a relevant justification to buff DPS one a specific espec?

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, the question is what you are trying to achieve. If you just want more acceptance in PUG's, DPS isn't the answer.

If you just want the game to be more 'fair' ... In the 10 years this game exists, there has been no evidence Anet is attempting to balance specs with some DPS target. Not hard to conclude that's not happening. 

i just want the classes to mach up more equally you can call it a personal or subjective thing if you want to and use that as an argument as to why it does not need to be done because you dont agree but it hardly matters.

 

People are asking for it for a reason.  I personally do however think power dps builds are falling behind condi counter parts a bit too much the changes to the game has not exactly been kind to power builds. It does not matter if anet balances on dps or not I do think power reaper could stand to offer a bit more. This bit more could be something as simple as changing a 10 year old trait to not be usesless for 50% of the combat time and be less effective the better your overall group is as a result. Its not that hard to understand.  The goal of the patch is to update old things and make unused things more viable there are many many traits that have not been updated in years that could ideally use an update and an update would help things like power reaper out a good bit. 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

i just want the classes to mach up more equally you can call it a personal or subjective thing if you want to and use that as an argument as to why it does not need to be done because you dont agree but it hardly matters.

 

People are asking for it for a reason.  I personally do however think power dps builds are falling behind condi counter parts a bit too much the changes to the game has not exactly been kind to power builds. It does not matter if anet balances on dps or not I do think power reaper could stand to offer a bit more. This bit more could be something as simple as changing a 10 year old trait to not be usesless for 50% of the combat time and be less effective the better your overall group is as a result. Its not that hard to understand.  The goal of the patch is to update old things and make unused things more viable there are many many traits that have not been updated in years that could ideally use an update and an update would help things like power reaper out a good bit. 

Sure, we want it. It's just not going to happen. Sure people ask for it for a reason. That doesn't mean the reasons people want something are valid. Sure, everything in the game could be buffed to give 'a bit more'. Being better isn't a reason for improving something.  

I'm all for improvement, but it's not going to happen if the reasons aren't aligned to how Anet intends the game to work. If Anet doesn't intend for DPS parity, you just aren't going to get it. If people are playing Reaper at a level Anet is satisfied with and Reaper works how they intend it  to ... I see almost no reason they would even consider looking at it. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

15 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, we want it. It's just not going to happen. Sure people ask for it for a reason. That doesn't mean the reasons people want something are valid. Sure, everything in the game could be buffed to give 'a bit more'. Being better isn't a reason for improving something.  

I'm all for improvement, but it's not going to happen if the reasons aren't aligned to how Anet intends the game to work. If Anet doesn't intend for DPS parity, you just aren't going to get it. 

Ok well obviously we cant make anet do anything. I dont think anyone understand how anet aligns things in the game to work but im not going to go through these infinite loops with you.

At this point it sounds like you are just locked into not asking for improvements or shooting down suggestions on the idea that you so firmly believe that you will never get anything. Which is fine however consider maybe not trying to so strongly shoot every person down because it gets to a point where you should just say you agree to disagree. Its not exactly constructive conversation and just becomes back and forth nonsense.

I have nothing against you but... you become increasing frustrating to interact with due to how you try to play these mental gymnastics. We as players already know we wont get things if anet does not want to do them but none of us not even you know exactly what anet wants to do or what they dont with 100% certainty. Sometimes suggestions are taken into consideration however and perhaps you should not be on auto pilot to shoot people dont based on uncertainties you dont even know.

Edited June 13, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

At this point it sounds like you are just locked into not asking for improvements or shooting down suggestions on the idea that you so firmly believe that you will never get anything. Which is fine however consider maybe not trying to so strongly shoot every person down because it gets to a point where you should just say you agree to disagree. 

I'm not against any of that. What I'm against is improvements without justification or considering intent. 

For example, just because it would be better is not a valid justification to add DPS to Reaper; that's an absolutely trivial reason to buff something because obviously any buff make something better.

Is there a need? Does it align with the intent of the espec? There isn't a need for Reaper to get more DPS based on comparisons to other especs DPS because there is a strong game history that indicates there isn't some universal DPS target Anet is balancing specs to. 

So what is the ACTUAL need for Reaper to get more DPS or any change for that matter? The truth is that we know Anet changes things  if they are not played at a level Anet wants to see or if an espec doesn't work as Anet intends it to work. Is that the case here? Is there other reasons Anet have made changes in the past that are relevant to why Reaper should get a change?

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not against any of that. What I'm against is improvements without justification or considering intent. 

For example, just because it would be better is not a valid justification to add DPS to Reaper. Is there a need? Does it align with the intent? There isn't a need for Reaper to get more DPS based on comparisons to other especs DPS because we already know there isn't some universal DPS target Anet is balancing specs to. 

So what is the ACTUAL need for Reaper to get more DPS? 

Universal dps targets don matter i dont care if there is or is not a target that anet does or does not aim for im simply making suggestions based on my personal preference which is subjective. I could argue that traits that directly relate to reapers dps are out dated while this is some what a fact it is still subjective meaning you likely dont agree with it which is fine.

IT would be nice to have an increase comparison to the way some of the newer traits and utilities are designed. I've honestly have already said this several times and you don't agree with it which is fine. You saying there is not a need for more dps is just as subjective as me or anyone else saying that there should be one.

Lets agree to disagree. Im not going to say it again.

 

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Universal dps targets don matter i dont care if there is or is not a target that anet does or does not aim for im simply making suggestions based on my personal preference which is subjective. I could argue that traits that directly relate to reapers dps are out dated while this is some what a fact it is still subjective meaning you likely dont agree with it which is fine.

IT would be nice to have an increase comparison to the way some of the newer traits and utilities are designed. I've honestly have already said this several times and you don't agree with it which is fine. You saying there is not a need for more dps is just as subjective as me or anyone else saying that there should be one.

Lets agree to disagree. Im not going to say it again.

 

Well, for SURE Reaper DPS traits are not out dated. Soul Eater is a very reasonable trait, as is Cold Shoulder. Reaper's Onslaught is borderline broken and Decimated Defenses is so stupidly OP in a group scenario that you almost can't avoid overcapping crit rate with it (I have a whole build dedicated to that scenario in fact). 

Again, the issues with Reaper have nothing to do with its offensive capability; it is very improbable that it would get more DPS with the current trait structure. If anything, I would TRADE some of that trait structure to address what it doesn't bring to a team, which is anything. I personally don't even see that as a problem really. It's OK we don't have every spec relevant to every game mode and scenario; there are lots of choices for that. It's OK that Reaper is good choice for a non-team environment. 

See, the difference between you and me is that I see class changes as solving problems (and there is strong evidence that Anet does as well). If there is no problem to solve, there is no reason to change it. You just want something and because you see changes, you don't see why you can't get things you want. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952