Virtuoso fills a niche that Mesmer was lacking

[KeoLegend.5132]

21 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I still don't know what niche it filled that Mesmer was lacking....? Fact that the person who posted this thread also said "Mesmer did not need another Support or Raid DPS build." 

So did not need another Raid DPS build...when benchmarks are based off of raids....and I'm pretty sure there are many classes that perform well in raid benchmarks can also excel in w/e PvE content is needed to fill in that role...

I don't see the niche....

What the kitten am i reading here?
Celestial Mirage, CI Mirage, Power Chrono... and the list go on. And you say Mesmer suffers in WvW? Nice way to discredit yourself.

Virt is doing nice in sPvP, tho not better than Mirage.

Virt is bad in Zergs because of the reflects, but at roam he is fine

Virt is top Raid DPS atm, which translate good in T4 because the ramp up time is very quick, not on WB level but pretty close

[viquing.8254]

3 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Virt is doing nice in sPvP.

Proofs ?

Some platinium stream or AT linc ?

Edited March 25, 2022 by viquing.8254

[KeoLegend.5132]

Just now, viquing.8254 said:

Proofs ?

Some stream or AT linc ?

Proof is my current spvp history.

It might not be relevant but is the data i have. Im no pro, sitting at Gold/Plat and Virt is doing well in there.

[viquing.8254]

7 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Proof is my current spvp history.

It might not be relevant but is the data i have. Im no pro, sitting at Gold/Plat and Virt is doing well in there.

Thanks but it's not a proof for me.

I already posted this king of things on PvP forum :

 

 

This is not my personnal opinion and this has more weigth than any feelings players can have.

Mean if everyone says facts without data behind, we will have a never end discussion.

Edited March 25, 2022 by viquing.8254

[KeoLegend.5132]

3 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

Thanks but it's not a proof for me.

I already posted this king of things on PvP forum :

 

This is not my personnal opinion and this has more weigth than any feelings players can have.

Mean if everyone says facts without data behind, we will have a never end discussion.

I don't deny any info you did post but this is completely irrelevant to me.

If Virt is doing bad in the "grand scale" it doesnt matter to me because in the small scale, which is limited to MY MATCHES, Virt is doing fine, so Virt is fine

[Nezekan.2671]

There was not a single Memser among winning teams, least of all Virtuoso lmao.

 

Another relevant video:

 

 

[viquing.8254]

2 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

I don't deny any info you did post but this is completely irrelevant to me.

If Virt is doing bad in the "grand scale" it doesnt matter to me because in the small scale, which is limited to MY MATCHES, Virt is doing fine, so Virt is fine

I'm happy for you but for a player who want to perform with his class, he has no choice but to look at big scale.

Did you think that if you train everyday and hardtry with virtuoso with a god tier teamate you can reach top 10 ?

The answer is no because you lack basics tools in your setup by design to compete .

At same skill, you have other profession performing better (and in the current discussion, other mesmer spec too.).

[KeoLegend.5132]

4 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

I'm happy for you but for a player who want to perform with his class, he has no choice but to look at big scale.

Did you think that if you train everyday and hardtry with virtuoso with a god tier teamate you can reach top 10 ?

The answer is no because you lack basics tools in your setup by design to compete .

At same skill, you have other profession performing better (and in the current discussion, other mesmer spec too.).

ok

[Puck.3697]

59 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

I don't deny any info you did post but this is completely irrelevant to me.

If Virt is doing bad in the "grand scale" it doesnt matter to me because in the small scale, which is limited to MY MATCHES, Virt is doing fine, so Virt is fine

but that really doesnt mean virt is fine....

that just means u can outplay someone if ur determined to use it realistically. ur correct, that maybe the grand scale of things dont affect you, but at the end of the day, regardless to such it isnt wrong to demand that virtuoso should be stronger, given how weak it is currently.

 

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I said this a ton of times but again: helseth dropped to gold playing Virt. 

That's fine, getting gold is a pretty high achievement and like i have been saying i have noticed a lot more virtuoso lately. I would say most of them were Mirage staff users but all the same.

7 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Alac Mirage is good in T4s, especially in last 3 fractals that has long bosses and there is ramp up time. It is capable of 1000 defiance damage and can provide alacrity in full dps gear. It actually rivals alac ren due to this very fact, it does not need any concentration gear. Alac ren is still better at some fights, mainly those that do not have ample ramp up time. However Alac Mirage is very relevant.

So no, Virtuoso does not fill any niches. Mesmer needed to be better in PVP and WVW and Virtuoso is WORSE than core mesmer in these modes. This niche remains unfilled for mesmer.

Only for very high level sPvP play, WvW though is bit tricky and i do believe we need to see a buff to Virtuoso here. Soulbeast longbow is still better but mostly due to barrage and rapid fire being easier to land.

1 hour ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

I don't deny any info you did post but this is completely irrelevant to me.

If Virt is doing bad in the "grand scale" it doesnt matter to me because in the small scale, which is limited to MY MATCHES, Virt is doing fine, so Virt is fine

This has been my experience to, spammed pvp last night with the same Virtuoso at around 1450 and he never dropped rank beyond me playing with him. I think out of the 5 games we played we only lost 1, he was just teleporting around and punishing far.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

What are you talking about? That is exactly what it got, that is all that Virtuoso can do.

It has a lower opening burst then some support specs.

If they wanted a DPS Mesmer with decent opening burst they could have just reverted all the nerfs to Chorno that they did to base the build around that stupid slow increases crit chance trait.

And why Take a Virtuoso over any of the specs who can do DPS and bring utility/support? Virtuoso can't even do much to help with breakbars.

 

To answer your question

PvP players hate it because its bad at PvP by design.

WvW players hate it because its bad at WvW by design.

PvE players hate it because it has no support and no utility so why bother taking it over other classes? Why can't it be built for DPS, support/utility or a mix of both like 99% of non Mesmer specs can? Its also the glassiest Mesmer has ever been in open world.

People who though that Anet would listen to feedback hate it because Anet ignored all the feedback and the only major change they have done to the class is gut the Power damage of a selfish power damage spec and keep buffing bleed traits for some reason.

People who wanted a good F4 skill hate it because the new F4 is the worst skill that has ever been in this game. As somebody who mostly PvEs I wouldn't even mind them replacing Distortion for something more damaged focused but this skill neither has defense nor damage.

Mesmer players hate it because its a dull boring spec that ripped out a core mechanic and replaced it with nothing, none of its traits do anything interesting, has an elite skill so kitten that even PvE mobs just walk out of its wet noodle damage, has no synergy with core Mesmer traits some of which don't even work properly with the spec and ultimately feels like Mesmer 0.5.

Although I agree with the rest of your statements. 

The beta 2s nerfing to virtuoso seems to be largely reverted. It has a 40k DPS Condi and power variant.

It's damage is fine tbh. Ive not noticed any wet noodle damage realistically. I kill things extremely quickly. 

It's a solid DPS specc. The fact there's 0 demand for pure DPS speccs in PvE. And it's stupidly easy to counter in spvp however are extremely problematic for it in both sides of content. 

[Mell.4873]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Although I agree with the rest of your statements. 

The beta 2s nerfing to virtuoso seems to be largely reverted. It has a 40k DPS Condi and power variant.

It's damage is fine tbh. Ive not noticed any wet noodle damage realistically. I kill things extremely quickly. 

It's a solid DPS specc. The fact there's 0 demand for pure DPS speccs in PvE. And it's stupidly easy to counter in spvp however are extremely problematic for it in both sides of content. 

It can be played with as a high sustain with minimal drop in dps if you run Inspiration.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

That's fine, getting gold is a pretty high achievement and like i have been saying i have noticed a lot more virtuoso lately. I would say most of them were Mirage staff users but all the same.

Only for very high level sPvP play, WvW though is bit tricky and i do believe we need to see a buff to Virtuoso here. Soulbeast longbow is still better but mostly due to barrage and rapid fire being easier to land.

This has been my experience to, spammed pvp last night with the same Virtuoso at around 1450 and he never dropped rank beyond me playing with him. I think out of the 5 games we played we only lost 1, he was just teleporting around and punishing far.

I don't think you understood. 

Let me rephrased it: the best player in gw2's history dropped to gold tier while playing Virt. 

[Mobian.8256]

It's funny to me that people who play a class come over here and defend it against a vast majority of people who are saying that it does not perform well in some cases and that it needs adjustments. 

 

It's like, if you play the class, even if it works for you, why are you against it receiving changes and buffs? Do you not want it to perform better? LMAO

 

And also just the horrible take of "Oh it works for me so it must be fine!" That's great honey, but if a huge amount of people who use it too are finding problems with it then it doesn't really matter if your experience with it is fine.

[Mell.4873]

44 minutes ago, Mobian.8256 said:

It's funny to me that people who play a class come over here and defend it against a vast majority of people who are saying that it does not perform well in some cases and that it needs adjustments. 

 

It's like, if you play the class, even if it works for you, why are you against it receiving changes and buffs? Do you not want it to perform better? LMAO

 

And also just the horrible take of "Oh it works for me so it must be fine!" That's great honey, but if a huge amount of people who use it too are finding problems with it then it doesn't really matter if your experience with it is fine.

I dont think anyone is arguing changes to Virtuoso, the topic here is what role Virtuoso preforms in the group. The OP is arguing upfront damage, which I agree and everyone else says Virtuoso is useless and needs a rework ( for mostly PVP?) 

I mean most people here are on two different pages, I mean I agree with PvP changed/buff but not PvE.

Most of the PvE changes that people want will strip away the class identity as being an upfront dps because people would rather it do something else like support. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I don't think you understood. 

Let me rephrased it: the best player in gw2's history dropped to gold tier while playing Virt. 

Let me rephrase my comment. I see people play in gold and even high gold just fine without dropping rank. I'm currently in the top 250 players and have seen more Virtuosos than Chronos and Mirages combine. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

every e-spec doesn't need to fill every role ever. 

 

case in point: i'm still waiting for a bursty single-target ranged elemetnalist. kind of like how virtuoso feels, as matter of fact. sure, people argue that staff ele exists, but the staff is mostly a support / control weapon, which also happens to have two really good ranged skills in fire. but for some reason, Anet keeps pushing more of a melee / frontline role for the class with all its e-specs.

 

i actually really like vurtuoso as a glass canon. partly because i can't play a PvP style with clones-as-distractions kind of play. sure, i die a lot in WvW, but when i can +1 with it, it's really fun. ("+1" meaning that the target is focusing another one of my allies, and i am free to drop bombs on the enemy without repercussion) virtuoso is still very squishy unless you build for tankiness,.

[Nezekan.2671]

3 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

every e-spec doesn't need to fill every role ever. 

 

case in point: i'm still waiting for a bursty single-target ranged elemetnalist. kind of like how virtuoso feels, as matter of fact. sure, people argue that staff ele exists, but the staff is mostly a support / control weapon, which also happens to have two really good ranged skills in fire. but for some reason, Anet keeps pushing more of a melee / frontline role for the class with all its e-specs.

 

i actually really like vurtuoso as a glass canon. partly because i can't play a PvP style with clones-as-distractions kind of play. sure, i die a lot in WvW, but when i can +1 with it, it's really fun. ("+1" meaning that the target is focusing another one of my allies, and i am free to drop bombs on the enemy without repercussion) virtuoso is still very squishy unless you build for tankiness,.

Not every spec needs to fill every role, but every class should be able to when combining all their e-specs. Mesmer cannot do this in pvp and wvw

[Ombras.2853]

I red at least 5-6 posts that say “Mesmer doesn’t have a role in WvW”.

Those people never ever played WvW in their life.

Be serious, at least.

[phokus.8934]

7 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I red at least 5-6 posts that say “Mesmer doesn’t have a role in WvW”.

Those people never ever played WvW in their life.

Be serious, at least.

It's disingenuous to say they don't have a role but having one role for the past 7 years in group play gets a bit old.

One dodge Mirage since Feb 2020 kind of killed roaming.  Sure it still works but one dodge... Power Mesmer has the most telling setup for its burst and is outclassed in comp and roaming.

 

 

 

 

[Mell.4873]

19 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I red at least 5-6 posts that say “Mesmer doesn’t have a role in WvW”.

Those people never ever played WvW in their life.

Be serious, at least.

I feel the same way, Everyone keeps saying stop balancing classes based on golem number well why dont we apply this to other game modes.

For general Zerging Virtuoso is fine and is amazing since you have almost nothing to worry about except following the zerg and throwing out damage. The hybrid Condi build means everything you do heals you so can focus on following the commander rather than risking it by straying from the group.

[Ombras.2853]

19 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

It's disingenuous to say they don't have a role but having one role for the past 7 years in group play gets a bit old.

One dodge Mirage since Feb 2020 kind of killed roaming.  Sure it still works but one dodge... Power Mesmer has the most telling setup for its burst and is outclassed in comp and roaming.

 

 

 

 

TBH if we speak of big scale fights most classes have exactly one role, and some not even that.

If we speak of small groups roaming, Mesmer also has builds that can roam pretty well.

I can (and do) understand the complains about sPvP, since in 1vs1 at high level there are fundamental issues with the class. I’m not plausing the devs cuz they made a mess out of it in several occasions, and I do want to see improvements regarding several aspects (not only of Virtuoso, I’m one of those who completely loath the removal of second dodge to Mirage). That doesn’t mean I have to sniping like crazy about everything and imply things which are simply not true.

[Urphen.2857]

6 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I feel the same way, Everyone keeps saying stop balancing classes based on golem number well why dont we apply this to other game modes.

For general Zerging Virtuoso is fine and is amazing since you have almost nothing to worry about except following the zerg and throwing out damage. The hybrid Condi build means everything you do heals you so can focus on following the commander rather than risking it by straying from the group.

omg 🤦‍♂️

projectile hate maybe? you play only in open world with mesmer and now you are doing like you have a clue whats going on, the heal is so low from condi at the end it brings nothing to the table.

in WvW you stay always by the commander, a good squad stacks up, never going to leave the zerg.

 

34 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I red at least 5-6 posts that say “Mesmer doesn’t have a role in WvW”.

Those people never ever played WvW in their life.

Be serious, at least.

tell us which role has mesmer there? and dont come with this minstrel build that get outclassed by everything.

in good squads most of the time there is no mesmer, thinks like nec rev engi and guards is the way to go there.

[Ombras.2853]

1 minute ago, Urphen.2857 said:

 

 

tell us which role has mesmer there? and dont come with this minstrel build that get outclassed by everything.

in good squads most of the time there is no mesmer, thinks like nec rev engi and guards is the way to go there.

Talking about bias here 😪

Minstrel Chrono IS high meta in WvW, and it isn’t outclassed by anything.

It’s a very specific class that has very specific roles, which makes it also enjoyable to play.

But if you don’t, it’s fine. Just don’t cry like a baby cuz it’s not the build you wanna run. As I just said, it’s a high meta build which sees a lot of play in competitive WvW.

[Urphen.2857]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Talking about bias here 😪

Minstrel Chrono IS high meta in WvW, and it isn’t outclassed by anything.

It’s a very specific class that has very specific roles, which makes it also enjoyable to play.

But if you don’t, it’s fine. Just don’t cry like a baby cuz it’s not the build you wanna run. As I just said, it’s a high meta build which sees a lot of play in competitive WvW.

its not an high meta build, halve year ago it wasnt even a meta build it only was a niche build.

im not crying but its normal you start the personal insults now since you clearly have no argument anymore, go spread more false information 🤣