I want to like virtuoso but it has 0 utility

[Nezekan.2671]

15 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This is literally kitten, sorry.

If Chrono brings boons, it’s not bringing dps (quickness dps is another thing entirely).

If it’s not, then it’s currently a worse version of Virtuoso.

At the moment, pve dps top dogs are Scourge and Virtuoso.

If it’s something we didn’t need or something we didn’t ask for (i myself wanted first a support spec, then a good WvW variant) it’s another story.

 

Can you please realize that in ALL kind of End game pve content quickness and alac are provided by your subgroup? This argument is literally null.

If you read the conversation, it definitely includes open world content, Also, chrono is only 1k behind Virtuoso on benchmarks. So what Virtuoso brings is a Mesmer which is easier to play than power chrono and does 1k more damage, but everything is weaker. Power Chrono can bring boon strip and more cc, which is worth more than 1k dps. Due to lack of clones, sword 1 is much less effective in boon strip and Virtuoso ulti is just damage, which is pretty low for an elite.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

And who ever compared Virtuoso with other Mesmer specs? Certainly not me.

I’m saying that, as a Mesmer, it does provide in fact the usual Mesmer skips.

This is something nobody can argue about.

So the argument “it doesn’t bring anything other than dps on the table” is already flawed.

Same for the cc. I never said it’s better than Chrono, I said it has a very good cc. Which is, again, the truth, getting pretty much the same abilities (and don’t forget the stun on signet). It can still pick Moa on a Samarogh or similar, and so on.

The sustain argument still stands.

 

So, the point is: how is it a “selfless dps spec”? As a pure dps, it does exactly what you want a dps to do. 

The issue is your not accounting for the DPS losses made to provide this utility. 

It doesn't 40k bench with utility. It 40k benchs without utility same for its CC.  It's a good pure DPS. But it's not on the verge of being broken. 

Willbender is stronger then virtuoso as a good example. DH also has a 41k bench on a 100% all in DPS build. 

It's numbers are pretty normal in that situation really. 

While offensive supports can do 34/35k DPS it needs DPS needs to be above 40k. 

RDPS+PDPS is a thing. 

As a example say quickness harbinger 

If it does 31k DPS itself. And the DPS gain for quickness is 2k DPS per player. It's 31k + 18k. = 49k DPS. That harbinger is worth 49k DPS. 

If a pure DPS cannot output DPS equal to that. It's of less value to the raids DPS total then harbinger is. 

The issue is, players who dont theorycraft or do the mathmatics of the meta behind the scenes, just see numbers and base. 

The issue is your ignoring the hidden DPS (Raid DPS value). The amount of DPS you give the rest of the raid. 

Quickness. Alacrity. Might, fury, spirits, spotter, banners, these all need to be totaled up to how much dps per player it gives. And that DPS needs to be given to proffession I e 

Druids spirits add roughly 500 DPS per player, that's 4500 DPS that the druids responsible for that won't be shown by a golem or a DPS meter but is valid. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Urphen.2857]

36 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

This is literally kitten, sorry.

If Chrono brings boons, it’s not bringing dps (quickness dps is another thing entirely).

If it’s not, then it’s currently a worse version of Virtuoso.

At the moment, pve dps top dogs are Scourge and Virtuoso.

If it’s something we didn’t need or something we didn’t ask for (i myself wanted first a support spec, then a good WvW variant) it’s another story.

 

Can you please realize that in ALL kind of End game pve content quickness and alac are provided by your subgroup? This argument is literally null.

Doesn't change the fact that Virtuoso brings only dps.

It doesn't matter if it can bring in the same time or not what matters is that chrono has options and if anet would stop nerf chrono every time they can the dps would be on par or higher.

If they nerf virtu dps what does it bring what chrono couldn't bring? 

The last part is the part where I agree with you, we didn't needed another dps we needed something for pvp/wvw, even if it is nice to have a high dps again but I saw already in discord group's suggesting to nerf cVirt since it does to much 🤷‍♂️

[Veprovina.4876]

11 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

As a example say quickness harbinger 

If it does 31k DPS itself. And the DPS gain for quickness is 2k DPS per player. It's 31k + 18k. = 49k DPS. That harbinger is worth 49k DPS. 

If a pure DPS cannot output DPS equal to that. It's of less value to the raids DPS total then harbinger is. 

I feel like more people need to understand this, and even Anet themselves at times.

When i brought my quickness harbinger into a raid, i did less personal DPS than i can do on my condi scourge.

But the group DPS went significantly up, and it was very evident on bosses like Gorseval. 

 

In order for a selfish "DPS only" class to match that, it would need to personally by itself output as much DPS as a harbinger PLUS what difference quickness makes for each raid group member to be worth taking over. And that doesn't mean 40k dps, that means at least 50, that you can bring virtuoso instead of some other profession that gives boons in addition to its own dps. 

 

And of course that's not gonna happen, you have to account for situations where a virtuoso is in a group with harbinger who already provides quickness, giving it more, so there's that, but when people rave about how amazing Virtuoso "benches" (and i already made clear my thoughts about "benchmarks"), they don't really understand what they're talking about.

[Simonoly.4352]

Yes, whilst it's workable in PvE, it's not particularly engaging to play. Of course it does great damage against a training golem, but it's just really rather inflexible for open-world stuff. You miss out on a ton of AoE damage from shatters and you no longer have clones to draw aggro and up your sustained damage if condi - plus no more boon rip from sword clones. I tend to only use Virtuoso for encounters where there is just one target in an open-world event and my clones are being popped too easily. Otherwise it's largely redundant.

I generally find the design of Virtuoso a bit confusing if I'm honest - its many facets are without cohesion and it desperately lacks a sense of purpose. The one thing that Mesmer, the original "duelling class" didn't need is another single-target specialist option. I'm quite surprised Anet didn't go down a different design path here.

Ho hum, the disco twirls when you use a Bladesong still look pretty cool 🤷‍♂️

Edited March 28, 2022 by Simonoly.4352

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Ombras.2853 said:

If Chrono brings boons, it’s not bringing dps (quickness dps is another thing entirely).

And if Firebrand, Renegade, Harbinger and Mechanist want to bring boons they can do with dps that isn't far behind Virtuoso, normally with better burst or can just forgo that entirely and go pure dps.

 

No but Virtuoso is fine for pve because... because it just is!

[Ombras.2853]

Nice to read a bunch of comments that completely ignore the actual end game reality. Allright, can’t keep repeating facts all the time if people don’t want to read them. I’ll only write to complain about Virtuoso in PvP modes, since that’s the only area where I can agree with most of you guys. 

[Puck.3697]

9 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Nice to read a bunch of comments that completely ignore the actual end game reality. Allright, can’t keep repeating facts all the time if people don’t want to read them. I’ll only write to complain about Virtuoso in PvP modes, since that’s the only area where I can agree with most of you guys. 

But they don't ignore the end game reality. 

PDPS + RDPS is a valid situation of end game. 

Your personal DPS + the DPS you provide the raid is the mathematical sense of getting the ultimate DPS value of each specc. 

This is how FFXIV balances their PvE. And they have the best balance of all mmorpgs currently on the market and it's for this reason. 

You undervalue boons which is the issue. 

Weaver suffered this for most of PoF. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

It's clear that some people are spoiled by having good raid mates that bring utility. Ignoring RDPS and only focusing on PDPS, there are those kinda players throughout the game including GW2. Fact that those type of people ignore valid facts just show that the general quality of the playerbase has gone down hill. 

[Ombras.2853]

10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

It's clear that some people are spoiled by having good raid mates that bring utility. Ignoring RDPS and only focusing on PDPS, there are those kinda players throughout the game including GW2. Fact that those type of people ignore valid facts just show that the general quality of the playerbase has gone down hill. 

Roftl, I’m literally jamming support 99% of the time.

There’s a simple difference, tho: if you need to cover a dps role, you want to do specifically that.

Don’t try to use semantics in a weird way, a party is always composed by both classes, and you have to have both.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Only problem with your reasoning is that Virtuoso's PDPS isn't far off from other DPS that can bring just more then what it can offer alone. In places like a 5 man situations like fractals, unless you run a comped group a Virtuoso going in solo not knowing if there is the require buffs to make it perform just isn't going to cut it. 

[Ombras.2853]

Eh, not really true tho? Currently CVirtuoso sits on around 42k, and has incredible sustain. It provides vulnerability and cc, and as I said in the in-between phases you have access to Mesmer skips. There’s a reason why people are so high/complaining so much about it at the moment.

The “going solo” part makes no sense, you don’t go blind in T4 fractals, you make the party before.

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Chrono solo providing itself quickness and alacrity will outdamage solo Virtuoso every single time, while also getting healing.

It actually cant, maybe with continuum split you can get enough burst to pull off slightly higher numbers but from my playing of both even without quickness and alacrity Virtuoso is has better.

The real super power of Virtuoso is it has no clones, this means i can switch targets much more reliably than Chrono and even Mirage which has the Axe skill to move clones.

[Ombras.2853]

In solo pve Virtuoso is kitten, and Chrono is much better due to 25% increased mobility and self quickness. Not even close. But I was talking about end game.

[Mell.4873]

I have a brilliant idea for everyone arguing silly semantics of Virtuoso.

Why don't you play all the Mesmer Elites when required. If the group you are in doesn't enough boons then you can play support Chrono or Mirage. If the boon are fine play Virtuoso, we have a full spectrum of answers to group problems.

The whole Selfish DPS problem is a not a problem. claiming the golem numbers are not realistic well this is more true for Mirage(axe) and Chronomancer which requires a VERY specific or situation for the rotation like Mirage(axe) being in melee.

While virtuoso has 0 and I mean 0 set up or rotation. You spam skills and just try aim Auto/(F1)Bladesong through as many enemies as possible, that is the high level game. After patch i might draw some diagrams of how you can aim the Bladesongs correctly.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

In solo pve Virtuoso is kitten, and Chrono is much better due to 25% increased mobility and self quickness. Not even close. But I was talking about end game.

Again yes but it isnt, focus group up and Bladesong combo alone will give you more dps than quickness.

The only thing i will agree is Chrono makes an amazing tank (altho selfish). Phantasmal defender makes some content very trivial when used correctly but you normally need people to heal you.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

I play all 4 Mesmer specs, both PvE and PvP. I have completed nearly all the raids and have gotten fractal CM achievements. I only stopped PvE is because its dreadfully boring with the current meta as if it wasn't dreadfully boring as it is. I only play Mesmer and main Mesmer I dont hop on Mesmer I main it that is the difference between many people who post in this thread. 

I don't jump to Virtuoso because "it doesn't feel like Mesmer". I don't jump on Mesmer for the "aesthetics". Nor do I jump on Virtuoso "because its easy".

Edited March 28, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

5 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Nice to read a bunch of comments that completely ignore the actual end game reality. Allright, can’t keep repeating facts all the time if people don’t want to read them. I’ll only write to complain about Virtuoso in PvP modes, since that’s the only area where I can agree with most of you guys. 

Pretty rich coming from the person who thinks support specs aren't a thing, Anet hasn't just said they want support specs to do comparable DPS to pure DPS specs while providing a bunch of support/utility/healing, they haven't reverted back to 5 man caps meaning groups will have to stack even more support specs and thinks dungeon skips are still relevant.

 

But we can't expect a person who thinks Virtuoso is 'broken' and wants it nerfed just because it does a few hundred dps more then other dps specs that can also spec for utlity/support to argue in good faith.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Fact that supports are reduced to 5 man cap means that any 10 man content will require double of the same support that provides the raid utility rather then just 1 which means pure dps that doesn't offer enough raid wide utility generally wont be used. The fact that Virtuoso requires optimal dps from all the buffs to deal that DPS is just unrealistic at this point.

[Ombras.2853]

Sorry, but this is getting truly ridiculous.

First, I just said that I play support classes 99% of the time. And it isn’t a random number. But I “hate support”, lol.

Second, if you say that pure dps don’t belong in any raid content, you are clearly not a raid player. Even if you don’t get double roles in your subgroup (example, the new Alac-Heal mech which is quite broken, or the evergreen Heal FB), and that’s rare not having any, you ideally want (at least) in your sub: 1) quick source 2) alac source 3) heal source 4) pure dps 5) pure dps/banner slave. Tell me how pure dps don’t belong anywhere. If you play too many support classes, you OVERLAP USELESS BOONS. It’s quite easy to understand, you know. And you can’t argue about it, it is and it has always been the math.

Third, I never ever said (or I will) state that I want Virtuoso nerfed. I only made you notice that people do realize how strong the build currently is in pve endgame, and you in fact see a whole bunch of them. People always feel compelled to complain about a class when it’s slightly better than theirs. Well, for that kind of content, Virtuoso is actually that class.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

 

Third, I never ever said (or I will) state that I want Virtuoso nerfed. I only made you notice that people do realize how strong the build currently is in pve endgame, and you in fact see a whole bunch of them. People always feel compelled to complain about a class when it’s slightly better than theirs. Well, for that kind of content, Virtuoso is actually that class.

 

You should also read that most complaints about Virtuoso is competitive play, but whenever competitive play is put into focus some PvE Andy will state how great Virtuoso is in PvE. 

PvE should never be a contributing factor to how an E-Spec performs because at the end of the day its simple numbers adjustment.

Why did Virtuoso suddenly become good at condi? Added a few seconds to the bleed and bam suddenly Condi Virtuoso is a thing. 

This does not translate to competitive play because Virtuoso is flawed in so many ways.

Forum is full of people who boasts how great it performs in PvE when MOST of the complaints are regarding competitive play. 

[Ombras.2853]

We are literally talking about pve content.

What is difficult to understand about this?

I’m the first who wrote tons of complains about Virtuoso’a position in PvP game modes, but this is completely unrelated to what we are discussing here.

[Salt Mode.3780]

43 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

We are literally talking about pve content.

What is difficult to understand about this?

I’m the first who wrote tons of complains about Virtuoso’a position in PvP game modes, but this is completely unrelated to what we are discussing here.

This thread isn't solely on PvE maybe you should read the thread more. Terms of utility it is true Virtuoso doesn't bring any. Core utilities should not factor in for Virtuoso because this thread does not state MESMER does not bring utilities, because Virtuoso itself with the new traits, new dagger skills, and utilities does in fact not bring ANY utility.

This can be said both competitive and PvE, you are the one that kept ranting about the PvE aspects of it. Fact that your argument requires Virtuoso bring in Core Utilities is already you agreeing that Virtuoso does not bring any utilities. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Ombras.2853]

So, you literally answered about my pve-centric post, saying that I was wrong about raid compositions and such… but, now, that’s not it anymore?

Allright, keep going.

[Salt Mode.3780]

37 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

So, you literally answered about my pve-centric post, saying that I was wrong about raid compositions and such… but, now, that’s not it anymore?

Allright, keep going.

Ok so lets talk about raid compositions, in a typical raid what would be your combined team that provides ALL the boons that Virtuoso needs to perform optimal golem benchmark dps?

Fact that boon output went from 10 to 5.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780