Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Sarie.1630]

16 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You don’t need the buff

 

Even if you don't, Erise.5614 is correct in so far as it requires more than an hour of your time.  I actually haven't had a failed run since week 2, but this is only because I get into a map which is actively organising before the next round of Preparations even starts.  One hour before the escorts events start organised groups seem to be filled (at least on EU) and then it's a "cross your fingers and spam join in the hope that a random in the map leaves".  You're therefore in the map in excess of one hour before the main escort events even start.  At best, my DE runs tend to be two hours, which is a massive time investment for someone who doesn't have loads of free time to spend playing.

 

I try to to the meta about once a week.  Now I've got my 5 conversations achievement, amongst several others, my willingness to spend 2+ hours doing this on an evening is vastly diminished.  I admit I don't know what the "extra rewards" are which Anet advised in their 29th March patch notes for EoD metas, but based on my run of Echovald meta this morning, I saw no discernable difference to loot there.  The Antique summoning stone daily is nice but it's not worth me using up an entire evening on it; I'd rather passively collect them over months.

 

I'm not complaining about this meta too much I think.  I regret I don't have the time to devote to the game that I used to - that's life.  If you could somehow marry up the current difficulty with not having to organise a group so early in the event cycle I think I would have a lot more staying power with it; but I don't really think that's possible the way things are.  #shrug

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sarie.1630

[CaffeeCup.5742]

A little late to the party, I just did the meta for the first time, joining a commander on LFG.  Long story short, failed at around 15%, just too many dead at that point, though I managed to stay alive and DPS with my Berserker in berserker right until the end next to the squad commander as he /gg then we die to whirlpool...

The difficulty was okay for me, but I'm used to action/difficult games that frustrate me until I beat it, but I cannot imagine an average MMO gamer doing it. 

What I mean by this is, imagine when you do the Drizzlewood meta, and the claw of Jormag at the end spam stomps, and about half the squad typically dies, that's your average MMORPG gamer, not the best reaction times.  I say this because I play GW2 with a friend, much older than I am, and I cannot recommend to him to try this meta.  He's the type who just wants to sit back, play a pet class, go through the grind and get the rewards, so yeah, it's not happening with this meta and this is pretty much your average MMORPG gamer majority.

[Zok.4956]

52 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Technically, four: casual PvE and instanced PvE, PvP and WvW.

I agree, that we could split PvE into more sub-types.

I would split it into ad-hoc-cooperation (this happens in open world) and pre-formed-groups-cooperation (this happens in instances). The core design of the open-world was ad-hoc-cooperation and that was a big difference to a lot of other games back then. "You don't need to form a group" was Anets statement back then about open world.

Both "sub-types" exist in the core game and were part of the (personal) story. Thats why Dungeons in Core-GW2 have an easy "story mode" and have (in the past more or less challenging) extra paths/ways.

And Anet learned back in the days, that forcing ad-hoc-cooperation-open-world players into pre-formed-groups was not a good idea. Remember: At first Arah was the only non-optional Dungeon for completing the personal story. And later Anet changed that into a personal instance (but did it really badly) and removed that forcing.

 

[Mithrilos.8036]

I prefere average mob that are harder to fight ( better stat, better mechanics, like the jade sentinel from mursaat fort, they are amazing ) than a huge boss that chain wipe huge amount of layer every hours.

 

I'm the kind of player that swap from need of fight/adrenaline and then recover by doing contemplative stuff chilling.

 

Someone stated recently that, as new player every map end ups being epic fight warzone all over the place. I'd say its half true, but certainly true for the end game maps. 

 

I personnally want to be able to go to the mist, but for PVE and not fractals because its way too hardcore themed

I want something that will push my skill to the max and stresstest my build, every build. not just asking you to swap item because unless you do that you wouldn't be able to clear content.

 

I'm not sure I'm clear U_U its kinda hard to define. Mists are the perfect place to build the end game content. yet its kinda reserved to spvp-WvW and fractales... and fractales are its own game mode. its not really Open world in the first place.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Erise.5614]

I think a good summary of most points around DE could be like this:

1. Difficulty in GW2 is not equal to effort invested during encounters
2. High DPS is not related to playing well
3. Neither high DPS nor playing well affects your chance of winning by a significant amount

High DPS is mostly related to high level theory crafting or simply following some guide 1:1 while probably abandoning your main. It does not require skill. It just needs social components and simply knowing where to look it up. Because the game sure doesn't offer any place to figure that out. 

Success relates more to knowing which groups will succeed ahead of time. Either by playing with certain guilds, by gatekeeping or by just knowing at what times to join to have a decent win chance. Because these attempts exclude the majority of the player base one way or another and therefore drastically ramp up the DPS output. Both through better equipment and through better gameplay. 

I do wonder though. What exactly is so enjoyable at this "higher" difficulty? It's a meta. Your impact is somewhere between 1 - 5%. The only meaningful difference is how large the DPS numbers are. There is no systems to meaningfully control the map nor a system to meaningfully help other players improve their build while in your map. Hence all the underhanded tricks to lure people out of maps and gatekeeping for certain groups. These do not exist if the meta is tuned just fine for open world. These exist if it's significantly overtuned. If hardcore players would rather not get in contact with the general open world player base in order to assure a reasonably smooth win. 

I don't see any specific strategy emerging either. There is nothing meaningful being learned like the circle strat in Dragons Stand. It's mostly doing the things that have been figured out since week 1. But having to deal more damage in less time.

Is anyones fun really directly related to how large the damage numbers are? Is that really what makes a meta fun? 

Like, in terms of cutting it close and being a tense yet enjoyable experience the crystals right before the fight are so much better in their design. You get time with every completion. So even if someone messes up you can rally to fix the mistake. And despite the counter always being low there is a reasonable chance to still succeed and it doesn't depend on your build either.

I don't get why open world should require subgroup boon setups. Or extensive, unannounced prep work. Boon supports do not do well in open world. It's weird to suddenly expect that. Just like it's weird to suddenly ramp up the expected average DPS this heavily. Is that really a good definition of open world fun? How to make it more fun for everyone?

Edited March 30, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Mithrilos.8036]

I'm an 10y experienced player, I've been here since the first min of the Alpha in the game, I've been absent for some time and came back from time to time. 

 

To this day, I never had more fun than in the defense of The Lion Arch event, felt like it was meaning something, felt the sense of danger, the need to help people. Working with them to evacuate etc. Its probably one of my most intense memory of the game.

It had nothing to do with huge DPS, it was something about fighting to survive and save everyone...

 

I havn't felt like this ever since.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Vaen.2605]

Just watched a competent group of 50 fail again this morning at10%, followed by the usual blame game.  How is this healthy for the game again?

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I do not get this gatekeeping accusation that keeps getting throw around. It sounds more likely the soft bigotry of low expectations against xyz. 

I am of the opinion is the vast majority of the playerbase can join a guild, can get a decent build, can get decent gear, and can learn basic highly telegraphed attacks. This is what people are claiming is getting gatekeep in this meta.

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I do not get this gatekeeping accusation that keeps getting throw around. It sounds more likely the soft bigotry of low expectations against xyz. 

I am of the opinion is the vast majority of the playerbase can join a guild, can get a decent build, can get decent gear, and can learn basic highly telegraphed attacks. This is what people are claiming is getting gatekeep in this meta.

Why should the meta be in the open world if it requires a guild to complete? 

Why isn't it a guild mission, clearly portraying that you are expected to join a guild and finish it with a specific, prepared group? 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Erise.5614

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

Sounds like ANet still hasn't acknowledge how badly designed this meta actually lel

And the so called "Better rewards" after completion is an absolute lie. I still get the same garbage rewards after I completed it recently. 

[The Boz.2038]

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Why should the meta be in the open world if it requires a guild to complete? 

More than half the guild missions are in open world. Why would this be a relevant limitation?

[Nico.9361]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Why should the meta be in the open world if it requires a guild to complete? 

It doesn't require to join a guild. It requires to engage with other players as a 'Group Event'. 

Anet is doing a lot to help ppl with encounters in EoD. Attacks have never been as well telegraphed as they are now.  It's still early after the release, let's give ppl time to learn, I guess.

[Erise.5614]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

More than half the guild missions are in open world. Why would this be a relevant limitation?

Guild World Events are all instanced. So are Guild Challenges and Guild Puzzles.

Only Guild Races, Guild Trecks and Guild Bounties are open world. Which on one hand and very much ironically can be completed solo. And on the other hand still explicitly gatekeep people from doing it on their own or as part of their open world routine. 

It would clarify that a guild is necessary to do this. So even if the event was still open world, it would cause less issues if it was presented as content requiring a large group of prepared and reasonably coordinated players. 

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It would clarify...

...a lie. It doesn't take a guild to complete.
Just like it doesn't take an ascended meta build, either.
But those two do help.

Also, Guild World Events aren't instanced. You just plop down an event in the open world.
Doing that event doesn't take a guild, either. Nor an ascended meta build.

[Erise.5614]

11 minutes ago, NotTooFoolish.7412 said:

It doesn't require to join a guild. It requires to engage with other players as a 'Group Event'. 

Anet is doing a lot to help ppl with encounters in EoD. Attacks have never been as well telegraphed as they are now.  It's still early after the release, let's give ppl time to learn, I guess.

You know. People have said this since week 1. But it's been a month and basically nothing happened. Nothing relevant is being learned. There is no circle strat to be found for DE. While on the other hand, ANet did absolutely nothing to improve the group organization. Nor any early indicators for failure. Requiring massive waste of time to figure out whether it can succeed.

The telegraphs are nice but not what's causing fails. And also mitigated by having the worst performance of all the metas, incentivizing stronger grouping and worse visual clutters than common while also being the worst hitbox indicators in the game.

As quite a veteran DE failer though with a handful of successes mixed in I can tell you exactly whether it will succeed or not before the first attack that could down anyone. With amazing accuracy. 

If attacks were the only issue I'd agree. Similarly if defiance bar was the only thing holding it back. Or if it was just the splitting up phase. But all of those work out just fine in pretty much all runs I've been a part of. Not as fast as they could but not wasting an unreasonable amount of time or entirely missing an exposed window due to lack of CC either. It's entirely within the realm of what we know from other metas. 

It's not failing due to lack of knowledge about the events mechanics. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

But it's been a month and basically nothing happened.

...and this is the point at which conversation with you about this completely loses any meaning. 
Basically nothing happened. Sheesh. 

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...a lie. It doesn't take a guild to complete.
Just like it doesn't take an ascended meta build, either.
But those two do help.

Also, Guild World Events aren't instanced. You just plop down an event in the open world.
Doing that event doesn't take a guild, either. Nor an ascended meta build.

You are actually right about the guild world bosses. Also a weird decision. I honestly expected them to be instanced. Having people force new map instances seems like really weird design. 

But it certainly takes more than the average PUG. Doesn't matter how you form your group. A pug or a group just meeting up on a map has very low chances of succeeding. 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Copium.

Erise wants the event soloable, so you can "play real well" and then "enhance your chance of winning significantly".
Don't think anything less than that qualifies.

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Copium.

It's really not.

Gear and builds make such a massive difference that your individual gameplay skill and performance is only responsible for the last few k of damage. The majority of impact comes from being geared up right. Not from playing well. Especially true due to how effectiveness of all aspects of build craft scale exponentially due to multiplicative damage modifiers. 

And if the average gear on your map is not good enough you have no chance of success. Whereas good average builds and gear make it a walk in the part. 

Suggesting otherwise is delusional. 

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Erise wants the event soloable, so you can "play real well" and then "enhance your chance of winning significantly".
Don't think anything less than that qualifies.

Hahaha. Nice take.

Let me try one!

You'd rather kill the entire community than acknowledge the shortcomings of the game.

[The Boz.2038]

Haha! A single meta being a challenge is not "shortcomings of the game", my dude.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Hahaha. Nice take.

Let me try one!

You'd rather kill the entire community than acknowledge the shortcomings of the game.

The community isn't strong if a meta nerfed a bunch of times would kill it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

4 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's really not.

Gear and builds make such a massive difference that your individual gameplay skill and performance is only responsible for the last few k of damage. The majority of impact comes from being geared up right. Not from playing well. Especially true due to how effectiveness of all aspects of build craft scale exponentially due to multiplicative damage modifiers. 

And if the average gear on your map is not good enough you have no chance of success. Whereas good average builds and gear make it a walk in the part. 

Suggesting otherwise is delusional. 

There are massive differences between support and DPS players alike, on a mechanical level, whether you like it or not. Besides, adjusting your build is one skill amidst others. Do you think I run the exact same build in every single raid and strike encounter? Lol. 

A good firebrand, for example, can have a MASSIVE effect on the group's DPS ranging from 10 to 20 seconds on a timer, per minute or two. Optimizing rotations is something a casual player, based on your replies for instance, clearly does not understand.

Talks about "walk in the park", yet complains about an open world medium-level boss encounter, lol.

Small edit: of course is going to play an impact in an MMO, you need to prolong your game's life span and give players incentive to play UP and gear UP. 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Mithrilos.8036]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

There are massive differences between support and DPS players alike, on a mechanical level, whether you like it or not. Besides, adjusting your build is one skill amidst others. Do you think I run the exact same build in every single raid and strike encounter? Lol. 
 

Well...I have to say my tought on this, because on my part I run the same build everywhere. Of course I know my limits, and the limit of my build. Hence why I also don't do Fractales nor Raids, because they ask specific settings that I don't want to follow.

 

Asking people to adapt their stuff for OW isn't the right curve to follow, most people play with a mindset and a vision of their character, not everyone run with full legendary gear so they can change buils every 2sec. I personally find it toxic even, quite boring.

For specific hardcore pve related and instanced like the fractales, I don't mind. but don't bring that on OW...

 

EDIT: on the other hand this is where the difficulty is : what happen to a player that want to play big support style with almost 0 DPS. He actually can't play alone or unless he is very patient ( I tried it so I can tell by experience )

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Erise.5614]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Haha! A single meta being a challenge is not "shortcomings of the game", my dude.

There is no meaningful challenge here. Not in the sense that it could be overcome in the open world. 

It requires coordination that you can not reasonably overcome without gatekeeping. In which case it should provide the necessary tools to do so.

3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The community isn't strong if a meta nerfed a bunch of times would kill it.

Not the point. My point was that if you fellas could have your way you'd rather overscale everything and kill the community rather than acknowledging the shortcomings the game has teaching what's necessary. 

3 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

There are massive differences between support and DPS players alike, on a mechanical level, whether you like it or not. Besides, adjusting your build is one skill amidst others. Do you think I run the exact same build in every single raid and strike encounter? Lol. 

A good firebrand, for example, can have a MASSIVE effect on the group's DPS ranging from 10 to 20 seconds on a timer, per minute or two. Optimizing rotations is something a casual player, based on your replies for instance, clearly does not understand.

Talks about "walk in the park", yet complains about an open world medium-level boss encounter, lol.

First of all. Actual support builds are terrible in open world gameplay. If the meta requires those it should have developed a new format rather than being portrayed the same way as all the others. Suggesting this to be the case and supporting gatekeeping to properly enforce that setup.

Optimized rotations are not as impactful as you make them out to be. It increases the base damage you supply. But it's the plentiful multipliers and stats that actually make up the majority of your DPS output. You can get 50%-70% towards max DPS output just setting up right and spamming skills on most professions. 

Doing the meta with my raid guild was a walk in the park. A genuinely easy fight. We were merely ~25 people plus randoms and finished with ~6:30 minutes left. 

But because builds make such a massive difference it's impossible to balance open world events for this kind of difficulty. The difference between an average open world player and a raid player is somewhere around 800%. Anything that's remotely interesting or challenging to people with that kind of output is impossible for the majority. And anything made for the majority is trivially skipped by experienced groups by simply overpowering all mechanics with excessive DPS.

That's why Octo is quite fantastic open world design. And Dragon's End could be interesting but is currently way overtuned. While it would benefit from 2 - 3 different difficulty scales so everyone gets to experience the right level of excitement.