Might be an unpopular opinion on mechanist

[ThrakathNar.4537]

9 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

Again a PvP issue. In PvE the cooldown of shift signet is only 25 seconds (19 with elite signet slotted). Please don't assume mechanist will be good in PvP ever. PvE is what really matters in this game.

The irony is that Mechanist is actually really strong in PvP for all the reasons people hate AI companions in games. It's irritating to use properly, but I'm sitting at p2 playing mostly mechanist this season.

 

Let's go with that 25 second number though - that's still way too high. Bear in mind, the cooldown on WASD is literally 0 seconds - a player can move freely when they want. The Sunqua peak fractal final boss moves around much more frequently than once every 25 seconds - I've tried to get the mech to cover boons on everyone, but there are a lot of boons going to waste because of people moving to try and follow the boss. I've also found it to be an issue on Cardinal Sabir due to the group constantly moving around the boss when the big tornado appears, as well as all of the new strikes (except Harvest Temple) because those bosses also move around very frequently. None of those are in PvP, all of them use PvE numbers, and yet with all of them I struggle to get the boons where I want them to go because players are moving more frequently than shift signet comes off cooldown. and since Return to Me doesn't always work, my boon output is not determined by how skilled I am, but how lucky I get with the random mech position. This is not good design.

 

Also - dismissing competitive like you did is not a good mindset to have about this game. ANet recently called WvW a "cornerstone gamemode": dismissing everything but PvE isn't something the studio is doing, so it's not something we should do as players. However, mech simply doesn't work in WvW because of systematic design reasons behind the spec. If any spec can't function in a cornerstone gamemode because of its design, then that spec is badly designed. It's as simple as that. Reworking mech to be more like ventari tablet would massively improve these issues as it gives more direct control back in the hands of the player, which makes it less irritating for the player, and less mind-numbingly painful to play against as the opponent.

[Jerus.4350]

2 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

 

Also - dismissing competitive like you did is not a good mindset to have about this game. ANet recently called WvW a "cornerstone gamemode": dismissing everything but PvE isn't something the studio is doing, so it's not something we should do as players.

Let’s not use the word “doing” when they’ve still not implemented the alliance system after 4 years…

 

I’m just salty that I come back after years and WvW basically hasn’t changed at all.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Jerus.4350

[Aravind.9610]

2 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

The irony is that Mechanist is actually really strong in PvP for all the reasons people hate AI companions in games. It's irritating to use properly, but I'm sitting at p2 playing mostly mechanist this season.

 

Let's go with that 25 second number though - that's still way too high. Bear in mind, the cooldown on WASD is literally 0 seconds - a player can move freely when they want. The Sunqua peak fractal final boss moves around much more frequently than once every 25 seconds - I've tried to get the mech to cover boons on everyone, but there are a lot of boons going to waste because of people moving to try and follow the boss. I've also found it to be an issue on Cardinal Sabir due to the group constantly moving around the boss when the big tornado appears, as well as all of the new strikes (except Harvest Temple) because those bosses also move around very frequently. None of those are in PvP, all of them use PvE numbers, and yet with all of them I struggle to get the boons where I want them to go because players are moving more frequently than shift signet comes off cooldown. and since Return to Me doesn't always work, my boon output is not determined by how skilled I am, but how lucky I get with the random mech position. This is not good design.

 

Also - dismissing competitive like you did is not a good mindset to have about this game. ANet recently called WvW a "cornerstone gamemode": dismissing everything but PvE isn't something the studio is doing, so it's not something we should do as players. However, mech simply doesn't work in WvW because of systematic design reasons behind the spec. If any spec can't function in a cornerstone gamemode because of its design, then that spec is badly designed. It's as simple as that. Reworking mech to be more like ventari tablet would massively improve these issues as it gives more direct control back in the hands of the player, which makes it less irritating for the player, and less mind-numbingly painful to play against as the opponent.

I don't have any problems giving boons anywhere even without shift signet. The only time to use shift signet is if your group moves to other side of boss and you need mech to follow. Simply because the boss moves is no reason to use shift signet at all since mech moves alongside players anyway. Ventari's tablet is lousy for revenants, why would anyone want that for any other class ever?

And no, mechanist is never going to be viable at all EVER in pvp or wvw, simply because it is an AI spec and I don't want Anet changing that in the first place. It was designed as a spec for people who asked for golemancer (even though I'm not one of them and I had my doubts), and now people have golemancer.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Aravind.9610

[ThrakathNar.4537]

8 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

I don't have any problems giving boons anywhere even without shift signet. The only time to use shift signet is if your group moves to other side of boss and you need mech to follow. Simply because the boss moves is no reason to use shift signet at all since mech moves alongside players anyway. Ventari's tablet is lousy for revenants, why would anyone want that for any other class ever?

And no, mechanist is never going to be viable at all EVER in pvp or wvw, simply because it is an AI spec and I don't want Anet changing that in the first place. It was designed as a spec for people who asked for golemancer (even though I'm not one of them and I had my doubts), and now people have golemancer.

Have you played Sabir, then? because the group needs to be constantly moving around the boss in a circle due to the giant tornado.

 

In what way do you find Ventari tablet "lousy"? In my mind it's very similar to an AI companion. Do you think the skills are underwhelming? If so, remember that mech wouldn't be copying those skills. Are you concerned that Ventari is used less than other legends? If so, remember that it's only really good for healing, so only sees use on heal ren builds (although sometimes used on dps alac ren for the projectile block utility). Do you find the lack of customisation boring? If so, remember mech can change skills through traits. Personally I really like the feel of Ventari, despite the shortcomings which I addressed (which mech would fix).

 

Also - your second statement is ignoring reality. Mechanist has been viable for weeks in PvP - to say it never will be is absurd. AI specs at various times have been extremely powerful in PvP, looking at Minionmancer and Core Ranger (which isn't nerfed, just overshadowed by Mechanist) in particular. And they are a horrible experience to play against. The funny thing is though that this wasn't the golemancer spec that all the people asking for golemancer wanted - several people wanted a mech suit that you could "ride in", which mechanist didn't deliver on.

[Spie.5024]

19 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Have you played Sabir, then? because the group needs to be constantly moving around the boss in a circle due to the giant tornado.

 

I have as heal mechanist and while the group has to move around if you stack the golem properly inside the hit box and give it commands regularly , the 600 range works to give boons. Just during the CC phases, it can be difficult and moving up to the platforms is also difficult to keep up boons but you don’t need it for the weak enemies there. 

[Pathologic.6435]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:32 PM, Depths.4051 said:

I’m not saying they take it away. I’m asking they make a trait to turn it off. Idk how many is a lot of us. I just know there’s you so far. I made the thread to kinda feel out the consensus on it.

You already have to command it to use 3 skills, generally an ultimate skill, and one of your hammer skills is required to trigger its corresponding skill.

The only difference between what you seem to be asking for and what it is now is that it is a mech that follows you rather than a turret that you place. What the hell am I missing here? Just how many commands do you want to have to give it?

Do you actually want it to not even autoattack without command or something? 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Pathologic.6435

[Depths.4051]

59 minutes ago, Pathologic.6435 said:

You already have to command it to use 3 skills, generally an ultimate skill, and one of your hammer skills is required to trigger its corresponding skill.

The only difference between what you seem to be asking for and what it is now is that it is a mech that follows you rather than a turret that you place. What the hell am I missing here? Just how many commands do you want to have to give it?

Do you actually want it to not even autoattack without command or something? 

Summon is f4 so and maybe f5 to unsummon maybe? But ya less buttons, and less time commanding it. If it just did aoe abilities such as buffs, shields, and aoe damage spam based on sigil use then it’s be less upkeep really. Just like the tablet for revenant. Place it where you feel like at any time. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Depths.4051

[Scolix.4879]

I really wish Mechanist would had been a spec where i control mech like Asura golems instead of hunter 2.0

The AI is really annoying and the fact that people whine about how OP the idiotic AI that can be CC killed in seconds might be more annoying because without the mech the spec is like playing core engineer blindfolded while someone plays pinata with your head with mech dead the spec feels just useless.

[Zzik.5873]

I main engi since  core for about 8 years now. And I would be so sad and disappointed if they remove the IA or turn the mech into a turret. Some people love to play with pet. No I dont want to play necro or ranger, I always pick engineer in any game thanks. So yeah mechanist is an awesome espec!!! Honestly the mech aint cluncky at all. If youre having issue with it, maybe its youre lack of skill playing pet class.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Makuragee.3058

[Depths.4051]

7 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

I main engi since  core for about 8 years now. And I would be so sad and disappointed if they remove the IA or turn the mech into a turret. Some people love to play with pet. No I dont want to play necro or ranger, I always pick engineer in any game thanks. So yeah mechanist is an awesome espec!!! Honestly the mech aint cluncky at all. If youre having issue with it, maybe its youre lack of skill playing pet class.

Not sure why you undermine the players who find the mech unwieldy. Anyways I’ve mained engi basically since launch as well and don’t like the mech. I’m not even asking they remove it just that they give us an option. Dunno why you against people wanting an option to not use it.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Depths.4051

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:08 AM, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

If any spec can't function in a cornerstone gamemode because of its design, then that spec is badly designed. It's as simple as that.

Absoluterly not, this is not the first round of elite specs, having specs that work better in one or more gamemodes is more than fine. 

As for the shift signet, it has 15s cooldown (elite+alac), not 25. That's more than enough for 90% of boss encounters. You can still micromanage your mech by putting in passive mode and follow me. Worst case scenario, you unsummon it, use mech autos and Barrier Signet to keep the boons rolling for the few seconds and summon it again where you want it. I'll take that any day over Chrono's wells that people seem to avoid more than the actual boss mechanics.

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me how much gw2 players complain about AI. Even in real pvp games, you don't see this much whining. Take LoL for example, I never see anybody complain about Heimerdinger's turrets or the various summoned pets.

4 hours ago, Depths.4051 said:

Not sure why you undermine the players who find the mech unwieldy. Anyways I’ve mained engi basically since launch as well and don’t like the mech. I’m not even asking they remove it just that they give us an option. Dunno why you against people wanting an option to not use it.

You have options, they are called scrapper and holosmith.

Edited April 1, 2022 by RabbitUp.8294

[ThrakathNar.4537]

46 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Absoluterly not, this is not the first round of elite specs, having specs that work better in one or more gamemodes is more than fine. 

As for the shift signet, it has 15s cooldown (elite+alac), not 25. That's more than enough for 90% of boss encounters. You can still micromanage your mech by putting in passive mode and follow me. Worst case scenario, you unsummon it, use mech autos and Barrier Signet to keep the boons rolling for the few seconds and summon it again where you want it. I'll take that any day over Chrono's wells that people seem to avoid more than the actual boss mechanics.

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me how much gw2 players complain about AI. Even in real pvp games, you don't see this much whining. Take LoL for example, I never see anybody complain about Heimerdinger's turrets or the various summoned pets.

You have options, they are called scrapper and holosmith.

The person I was responding to was saying that mechanist was never going to be viable in PvP and WvW - that comment about bad design was made based on the assumption (of the person I was responding to) that mechanist would not be allowed to be good. It has nothing to do whatsoever with flavour-of-the-month balance.

 

And as I keep pointing out, the cooldown for a player to use their WASD keys is 0 seconds - anything more than that gives the player inherently less control than other boon support classes. Is there actually any drawback from making the currently unused f5 skill a ground-targeted "Move to position" button with no cooldown?

 

I don't play LoL so I can't comment on the accuracy or validity of your statement, although I imagine there is significantly less frustration because in LoL your opponent cannot kite off nav-mesh, since there is no real 3rd axis. Also I find it slightly funny that the OP's suggestion for mechanist is to make the mech more turret-like, and the primary example of AI you use is turrets.

[Sahne.6950]

Why are people here saying that mechanist will not be viable in pvp / WvW when it is literally dominating spvp and smallscale WvW atm :0 Celestial/Diviner Grenade Mechanist is the strongest thing i have ever seen running around in WvW.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Absoluterly not, this is not the first round of elite specs, having specs that work better in one or more gamemodes is more than fine. 

Not everyone has all previous rounds of elite specs. Doubly so for the most recent release.

[MrForz.1953]

Ah, where can I even begin... 

People love possessions, the bigger the better, of course they're going to lose their minds over a moderately sized bot, it was marketed as such. It's perhaps... too detached from engineer in both gameplay and customization ironically, not much do to or experiment on and while it's nice to play something else at times it's the same level of boredom that I get when I decide to spend some time on Warrior that has me go back to Engineer.

 

The spec's also a joke in WvW which I spend a large part of my time in and I guess... it would upset me a little bit to have a spec slot sacrificed if the intent was to attract people in playing Not-Engineer.

 

42 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me how much gw2 players complain about AI. Even in real pvp games, you don't see this much whining. Take LoL for example, I never see anybody complain about Heimerdinger's turrets or the various summoned pets.

 

Because they are turrets, static AI with short range, this very condition makes it simplier to deal with and they act as denial zones; it also doesn't give much passive power if at all to Heimer when it's about attacking. Tibbers doesn't bear much power on its own after the nuke from the summon and can anyways be controlled by hand. Daisy shares a large part of Ivern's power but she's still just a CC machine that is prone to being casually bursted down and again, can be controlled by hand. The Maiden of the Mists, well it's little more than a giant creep.

 

Not even Riot Games is willing to give actual mobile killing power to pets these days despite the game's style allowing good manual control, the last time such a concept was live it was with the old Mordekaiser was he able to get a hold of an important, possibly ranged target with the ult and he's gone now.

 

There's no manual control here, not that the game's style would support it, and Anet doesn't exactly make good AI, especially considering the different terrain levels, skill lag and so on. Shift signet can only do so much especially with the split in game modes so it will let you down at some point, the questions are when and how frequently. To make up for this, the bot is overtuned so that the performance doesn't take a dive in average: The result is that it's annoying to be defeated because your powerhouse-AI let you down, and it's equally annoying to be defeated by a powerhouse-AI when it decides to work correctly. It's kind of a design trap.

 

The only AI that has a semblance of hope in both gameplay and performance are the turrets due to their static nature, and they're meme-tier.

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

The person I was responding to was saying that mechanist was never going to be viable in PvP and WvW - that comment about bad design was made based on the assumption (of the person I was responding to) that mechanist would not be allowed to be good. It has nothing to do whatsoever with flavour-of-the-month balance.

 

And as I keep pointing out, the cooldown for a player to use their WASD keys is 0 seconds - anything more than that gives the player inherently less control than other boon support classes. Is there actually any drawback from making the currently unused f5 skill a ground-targeted "Move to position" button with no cooldown?

 

I don't play LoL so I can't comment on the accuracy or validity of your statement, although I imagine there is significantly less frustration because in LoL your opponent cannot kite off nav-mesh, since there is no real 3rd axis. Also I find it slightly funny that the OP's suggestion for mechanist is to make the mech more turret-like, and the primary example of AI you use is turrets.

You remember how much whining there was the last time Engi turrets were usable in pvp?

Then they removed the crit and condi immunity and killed them off.

There's no reason why turrets should be in the state they are in, outside of a very vocal PvP community.

Also, other boon classes absolutely have to deal with their own limitations. Firebrand's mantras have very small coverage, which is hell in pugs, chronos have delayed wells, revenant can only provide alacrity with a long cooldown, so if you miss someone they will be without the boon for a bit. And mechanist can also provide alacrity with the mace, so missing someone with your mech is not the end of the world.

Of course I wouldn't mind an extra button like you described, but I'm also being realistic in that it probably won't ever happen.

41 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Because they are turrets, static AI with short range, this very condition makes it simplier to deal with and they act as denial zones; it also doesn't give much passive power if at all to Heimer when it's about attacking. Tibbers doesn't bear much power on its own after the nuke from the summon and can anyways be controlled by hand. Daisy shares a large part of Ivern's power but she's still just a CC machine that is prone to being casually bursted down and again, can be controlled by hand. The Maiden of the Mists, well it's little more than a giant creep.

Not even Riot Games is willing to give actual mobile killing power to pets these days despite the game's style allowing good manual control, the last time such a concept was live it was with the old Mordekaiser was he able to get a hold of an important, possibly ranged target with the ult and he's gone now.

I don't want to detail the thread and start taking about other games, but I specifically mentioned turrets because engi had them too, yet they are meme-tier like you said. As for other pets, riot specifically said they wanted Tibbers to do more damage with its aura and AA, and it was changed as such, and there's also the example of Malzahar that is the closest to gw2's ai, minions that he can't directly control outside of designating an attack target.

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Not everyone has all previous rounds of elite specs. Doubly so for the most recent release.

Ok, but the game can't be balanced around those people. The devs were bold enough to make something like druid when there was no alternative.

[Depths.4051]

11 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

You have options, they are called scrapper and holosmith.

Not sure you've been here for the entire thread but I kinda addressed why I would like the spec to have no mech. Again. Im not asking for the mech to be taken away, just that we be given the option to not use it.

[RabbitUp.8294]

13 hours ago, Depths.4051 said:

Not sure you've been here for the entire thread but I kinda addressed why I would like the spec to have no mech. Again. Im not asking for the mech to be taken away, just that we be given the option to not use it.

You didn't exactly address it, you just said you don't like pets. You can still play the other two specs, "well I wanna play petless mechanist, too" is not really an argument.

I like the mech, should I make a thread asking that scrapper and holo are given a traitline that grants them a companion?

[Depths.4051]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:53 AM, Depths.4051 said:

Ya, kinda a shame. I was just hoping to get others opinions on it. I've been seeing mechs everywhere lately, I kinda wondered if it was just because people follow the meta on what is strong, or whether it was because people love the idea of the AI mech following them around.

Personally I love everything about the new spec if not for the mech. If they could completely detach the mech from it and not get neutered I'd be happy honestly. I kinda thought a turret would allow the engineer to make use of the turret trait line more, and be a good middle ground, but I realize this would also mean theyd need to make new models and animations, which is likely not gonna happen. 

I personally love to support, so having a formidable support spec for engineer that isn't scrapper is a breath of fresh air. I like having  an actual weapon for one thing, cause pistol is really just a place holder, when you have no other real options for your shield combo. I've tried supporting with scrapper in fracs and it feels like more effort for less effect. In wvw ik scrapper is a god... err... is it still after they handed out a list of nerfs to us today?

Anyways, I enjoy support, I enjoy the spec, I just don't enjoy the mech. So I appreciate the "maybe you should play something else", but I do, I have, but the newest spec kinda encompasses what I like to play. So I plead that they take out the sore spot that bothers me, and thought perhaps bothered others.

 

11 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

You didn't exactly address it, you just said you don't like pets. You can still play the other two specs, "well I wanna play petless mechanist, too" is not really an argument.

I like the mech, should I make a thread asking that scrapper and holo are given a traitline that grants them a companion?

Basically I like the spec, and youre right i don't like pets. It's much easier to detach a pet than to make one. I see it much less so, to the point it would almost cost them nothing to do so.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Depths.4051

[Depths.4051]

By all means, make a thread about making pets for scrapper and holo. If there's enough of an outcry of support for it, and they have the funding, then I don't see why not. I don't see it happening from a financial perspective tho. Just detaching the mech from the player, would essentially cost them hardly any time, and no development costs. The class spec already functions where you can call skills on yourself when the mech is unsummoned, so it really wouldn't be a stretch to just power up the player with a specific trait investment, to completely unsummon the mech for those who prefer not to. I'd even settle for a bit less damage... not to the extent that it is atm, but you get the idea. 

[Cherubino XV.2384]

On 3/30/2022 at 3:36 AM, Depths.4051 said:

But can we get rid of the AI and have a trait line for mechanist that turns it into a really powerful multipurpose, permanent, yet movable turret? I honestly love mechanist but the whole reliance on an AI doesn’t sit well with me. It would also give us access to the turret related traits, which would be pretty sweet.

 

What are people ideas on how to possibly improve on mechanist?

Like others have already said there are Holosmith and Scrapper, both are stronger than the mechanist in PVP and WVW, I'm one of those peoples who wanted some mobile pet option on the Engineer since the release, got it with the Mechanist and had to wait almost 10 years for it.

[Zzik.5873]

Live our mech alone! You monster! 

 

Dont worry little jade mech nobody gonna hurt you. I'll protect you...

[Depths.4051]

5 hours ago, Cherubino XV.2384 said:

Like others have already said there are Holosmith and Scrapper, both are stronger than the mechanist in PVP and WVW, I'm one of those peoples who wanted some mobile pet option on the Engineer since the release, got it with the Mechanist and had to wait almost 10 years for it.

I don't pvp really, sooooo... wvw and pvp aren't really my jam as much, my personal opinion is more concerning pve.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Depths.4051

[Puck.3697]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:23 PM, Xenash.1245 said:

I'm not trying to discount this, but while I very much so get the mech wandering off to do it's own things which should be worked on. Can't you just hit the return command to get the mech back to you in PvE? And like the other person said shift signet does work well at repositioning the mech in PvE.

It will only get worse, as time goes on it will get buggy as more and more Is released and won't ever go back and fix it.

Anet prove incompetent when it comes to looking after and updating AI tbh most games do. 

Ranger pets are a good example of this neglect realistically.