Delete desert map

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 4/5/2022 at 4:15 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

I believe the original plan was to rotate them like every quarter,

 

Sorry I missed this on the other post. Its not Anet's thought about rotating DBL and ABL, what I mean is by now we should have had all the maps rotate in and out by week so that our sandbox was changed and pine scent fresh each week. Said before last WvW/RvR game I came here from was Warhammer Online where you had 25 different maps you fought across on a regular basis and 9 of which were in the last tier alone without the forts and capital cities. There was a reason that the community there were fighting on the last day and the last minute and the last second till the servers were turned of after 5 years of fighting.  The variety meant no matter how many times we ranked toons and fought through it, there was change in the sandbox. We have a great foundation here,  but we could use more in the mix. Just 5 maps......as a reference a dev can look up game age overtime, double that time in game age over half the game release time to get a better picture of what more map variety might mean.. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

Honestly, I can see the argument for having desert map around if wvw was PvE gamemode, but once you have matchup you're trying to win 1 of the following cases will always occur:

1.  You have desert map, meaning you can't mass numbers to defend it. As long as enemy server is willing to log in to take it, they will.
2.  One of the enemies has desert map. This means 2nd enemy won't even bother with it and you have to do twice as much work just to keep Red server down. While having less numbers on that particular map.
3. You have desert map but enemy isn't willing to go there. Meaning you get a free win of a matchup. Great right? Until you realise it means without points WvW is literally just fighting and any downtime of that means you log out. Your importance of being online is dependant on enemies showing up, not you.

Of course if WvW was as simple as choosing what map you want to play on, it would be great, but as your performance in matchup decides how much fun you will have next week, some people and groups are forced to play that map.

So it isn't about Desert map being unpopular, it is that unpopularity causing matchmaking to fail. While also causing reducing options for playing on alpine maps. Playing on server X alpine map is not same as playing on server Y alpine map. Often both those options are terrible or queued whereas server Z alpine map would be suitable option.

 

All of your issues are solved by removing ABL and having different maps for each side. The question comes down to, do you want home team advantage or go with the more popular stance of EBG,  since it outranks ABL? The sameness/staleness drove others out of ABL and out of game. So do we want new home border land maps or just replace them with 3 sided maps? At least DBL is closer to EBG that ranks higher in population.

[Xenesis.6389]

17 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Sorry I missed this on the other post. Its not Anet's thought about rotating DBL and ABL, what I mean is by now we should have had all the maps rotate in and out by week so that our sandbox was changed and pine scent fresh each week. Said before last WvW/RvR game I came here from was Warhammer Online where you had 25 different maps you fought across on a regular basis and 9 of which were in the last tier alone without the forts and capital cities. There was a reason that the community there were fighting on the last day and the last minute and the last second till the servers were turned of after 5 years of fighting.  The variety meant no matter how many times we ranked toons and fought through it, there was change in the sandbox. We have a great foundation here,  but we could use more in the mix. Just 5 maps......as a reference a dev can look up game age overtime, double that time in game age over half the game release time to get a better picture of what more map variety might mean.. 

The reason why it was quarterly, like links, the change had to be done manually. They don't have an automation system in place for it, and given how little programmers time wvw has been given in the past 4 years for alliances/world restructuring I'm sure you can imagine why we can't have these nice things. Also warhammer maps were pretty small compared to wvw. The game is still running on private server btw.

[Thornwolf.9721]

8 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

The reason why it was quarterly, like links, the change had to be done manually. They don't have an automation system in place for it, and given how little programmers time wvw has been given in the past 4 years for alliances/world restructuring I'm sure you can imagine why we can't have these nice things. Also warhammer maps were pretty small compared to wvw. The game is still running on private server btw.

Black crag was huge and verticle. 

I honestly wish they'd make maps more dynamic with more of our masteries in mind, like jumping mushrooms, siege turtles. Mainly because they'd make sense; I'd love a tangled depths like WvW map where there is stuff underground and floating above us? Maybe one themed around the white mantle vs shining blade vs khelberon? Each side having a leader that we can rally around based on our colors or chose alliances.

~WvW needs to borrow more from RvR in terms of which warhammer set, rather than trying to either be more PvE or PvP because its neither of those but both at the same time. It's basically a PvPvE . The events and bosses should be harder; We should be able to tame big bosses to help with our siege and mercenaries who actually are a threat. Something like a better variant of Alterac valley from vanilla wow as people have showcased in videos; With the warhammer RvR at its heart and the fludity and otherwise stellar GW combat and appearance. Pair that with our masteries and some wild new additions to WvW skill lines and bam. WvW reborn lol.
 

 

 

[Riba.3271]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

All of your issues are solved by removing ABL and having different maps for each side. The question comes down to, do you want home team advantage or go with the more popular stance of EBG,  since it outranks ABL? The sameness/staleness drove others out of ABL and out of game. So do we want new home border land maps or just replace them with 3 sided maps? At least DBL is closer to EBG that ranks higher in population.

Having 3 different maps won't make  it any better. Its like offering people candy, apples and meat. Or garbage in case of desert bl. One of them will be preferred by sizable percentage of player.

 

If you wanted fair matchmaking with 3 different borderlands, you would need 9 maps to cover those borderlands.

 

I do think 3 sided maps are better for WvW design but desert bl is far from 3 sided map.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Threather.9354

[ens.9854]

Desert ok. Just a bit big. Increase mount speed on desert only. Big brain.

[Thornwolf.9721]

1 hour ago, Threather.9354 said:

Having 3 different maps won't make  it any better. Its like offering people candy, apples and meat. Or garbage in case of desert bl. One of them will be preferred by sizable percentage of player.

 

If you wanted fair matchmaking with 3 different borderlands, you would need 9 maps to cover those borderlands.

 

I do think 3 sided maps are better for WvW design but desert bl is far from 3 sided map.

I personally think alpine is trash tier, hardly serviceable for RvR. If we're going to be picky then they need to remake/rework all of the maps to have more going on and be less a of a cop out; Alpine is weak. It's litterally only serviceable and thats not saying much based on how WvW has been going over the last few years.

so it goes as follows 

1. Remake all of the maps, they either need to have features similar too or greater than edge of the mists.
2. Make the objectives matter; those should be the focus and the fights around them. You should WANT to try and paint the map and lock the other factions out
3. once a map is locked down make it go into a two hour window where it will give the winners special objectives, with special unique rewards while it is on cooldown and then the map refreshes JUST LIKE IN WARHAMMER.
4. Make it that the end objective is to push the enemy out of their border camp and in the case of the server who owns garri and it is their home borderland? To destroy and capture their base and hold it for the two hour window.
5. Include modern map stuff, these maps are all dated and need to have the same quality new maps have in appearance and mechanics. We should have more of our masteries playing a roll here as it'd encourage people to do both content modes and you ideally would want overlap.
6. Add more to the skill tree's, rework siege and above all make it feel better when you're taking a big objective. Make towers offer more, make fortress's feel like fortress's and make the camps provide more than just supply.
7. More flavor over all
   
   this is only some of the things we'd need for WvW to really step up into the rvr space it's trying to participate in. Because thats all this is; A quick jab and grab at RvR and with there being nothing else out atm guild wars has a unique strangle hold on this type of play. Only the warhammer private server currently has similar gameplay; Eso's has been dead for years and no other game even bothers trying. So embrace what it is, and if others dislike it than make a fortnight clone battle royal game for those folks and then monetize the heck out of it.
   
   If you want big empty field fights with nothing else to it; Then they either need to make a game or a mode that can cater to that play so we can have our RvR without it being polluted with this notion of large scale "Lets do the pirate ship and slam into one another with every boon in the game" bs. 

[Xenesis.6389]

12 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Considering how good ANet is at designing maps when you look at the PvE maps I am not giving up hope yet. That said we have had 2 maps when you compare to...well I am don't want to count them considering how many of them there are for PvE. So I will question them when they say maps are hard to make. Posted before and will again, some of those PvE maps would make wild WvW maps, strip stuff out and give us objectives and it would a wild ride.

I agree, I posted something about that years ago and the suggestion comes up every once in a while. With the pve maps pretty much half the work is done, they just need to add objectives, and make them work properly as in there's no exploit siege spots etc. I don't think they said wvw maps are hard to make, just that it takes them a while (probably because they didn't put full resources into them either).

They could take things a step further, it doesn't have to be a map to replace home or ebg maps, it can just be a side map(5th map) made for specific purposes, heck they could add eotm into the mix to do just that as a test. Yeah we know population isn't enough to have a 5th map, we'll see after alliances I guess. But having a 5th "theme map" would be cool.

They could go further with designs with a lower population cap, or if they're able to, disable squads in there, use a lattice system for objectives, or put in the ruins system of objectives(so more like a spvp map). Which would encourage smaller group play in there. I'm reminded of planetside which took one of its continents and broke it up into 4 pieces of land, or they had caverns play which really got chaotic in there, there wasn't a lot of space to move a zerg around in there because of how cramped it was. Maybe some people wouldn't like the idea of recycling maps, but I think it would be cool to play on some of the pve maps for wvw.

Biggest problem though, is anet doesn't see a need, or doesn't think they'll get much of a return, to invest into wvw. All their resources are tied up with pve, especially now since they're trying to get back on track with the delay of projects, delay of expansion, layoffs, covid, while trying to keep a schedule for living story.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Caedmon.6798]

On 4/6/2022 at 7:06 PM, Mabi black.1824 said:

wow a year to program a map wvw. luckily I'm a plumber, if I was a programmer I would have died of boredom.😅

And thats why people need to be more careful when they say things as OP is saying. Critisism is ok,they can work with that. But the hate against this map and asking to delete it is straight up disrespect to anyone having worked ONE YEAR to create.

Go watch the docu about the fall and rise from FF online. They work their kitten off,they slept in the office,they barely slept at all. They put everything in creating something amazing. Devs deserve more praise.
 

 

3 Parts,I highly suggest to watch it.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Xenesis.6389]

4 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Go watch the docu about the fall and rise from FF online. They work their kitten off,they slept in the office,they barely slept at all. They put everything in creating something amazing. Devs deserve more praise.

Yeah, um, sorry, but pretty much no other dev house deserves the praise for what Square did with FF14 reboot thanks to Yoshi-P.

There's been more than enough criticism and suggestions for anet to improve wvw, they choose to mostly ignore it.

We're on year four on alliance "development". If you don't give your customers nice things, then don't expect nice things to be said.

[Caedmon.6798]

8 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Yeah, um, sorry, but pretty much no other dev house deserves the praise for what Square did with FF14 reboot thanks to Yoshi-P.

There's been more than enough criticism and suggestions for anet to improve wvw, they choose to mostly ignore it.

We're on year four on alliance "development". If you don't give your customers nice things, then don't expect nice things to be said.

I know that..hence the vid. I respect what they do,but not what theyre not doing but should do. It's also what Yoshi said in the docu,they listened to their community and talk with them and implement changes the community wants. Yoshi himself even talks on the forum with the community,tells the plans they have and what theyre gonna implement long before it happens,and he actually responds to people.

But to straight up disrespect devs by asking to delete a map people spend a year on to create just doesnt sit right to me.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Xenesis.6389]

9 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

I know that..hence the vid. I respect what they do,but not what theyre not doing but should do. It's also what Yoshi said in the docu,they listened to their community and talk with them and implement changes the community wants. Yoshi himself even talks on the forum with the community,tells the plans they have and what theyre gonna implement long before it happens,and he actually responds to people.

But to straight up disrespect devs by asking to delete a map people spend a year on to create just doesnt sit right to me.

When is the last time they touched the desert map for any touch ups?

They know it's not a favorite map yet do nothing to improve it still.

If you don't give your customers nice things, then don't expect nice things to be said, especially when wvw has been ignored the longest in gw2.

Yoshi-P listens to customers, the man was crying having to delay the expansion for two weeks. Anet ignores until they need to sell you something, alliance development going on four years, nothing about improving gameplay, nothing about whacked out tier system of servers actively tanking, catering to boon ball meta, something about rewards much to the delight of pve'ers, and all they can say is fluff that we're a "cornerstone!" after all this time. Thanks?

They're not even in the same league of what's deserved.

[Riba.3271]

10 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

And thats why people need to be more careful when they say things as OP is saying. Critisism is ok,they can work with that. But the hate against this map and asking to delete it is straight up disrespect to anyone having worked ONE YEAR to create.

It is a commercial product and I am the customer. I am not supposed to "just accept the product being terrible". Especially if it bundled with other products I wanna use.

Desert map would be fine if it was free extra option that isn't linked with other maps, like EotM. For example a "carebear solution that cares about everyones feelings" led to terrible solutions like linking system, instead of deleting some servers, that was near worst solution to reduce amount of tiers in WvW.

I am actually taking into consideration the companys interest when I recommend easy solution. It is obvious they do not want to work hard on WvW, so I just offer them ezpz few lines of code solutions. I could make a 10 page review on how to improve Desert map, but would it make any difference? No. They're just too lazy/understaffed.

Changing desert map into alpine gives us 90% of the benefit for 5% work: they could do 100% work to make desert map as fair and popular as alpine map, but is it worth it? And is it reasonable thing to ask? Asking a poor person to fork out 10k?

Actually if you work in a creative job, sometimes you waste decades or a lifetime to make bad things that others don't like. You just gotta accept it. It is the price for freedom of mind. So you should have absolutely 0 sympathy. I do not want ugly art piece on my wall even if the artist worked 20 years to make it. It is his weakness if he takes it personally and can't bounce up. Delete this monstrosity.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Exxcalibur.6203]

On 3/30/2022 at 4:14 PM, Threather.9354 said:

Kinda self-explanatory comparing kill counts on that map. It is also much better to have 3 alpine maps for fair matchmaking.

 

And no, 2 alpine maps aren't enough. There are so many alpine mappers that we need all 3. This isn't about Desert map being unplayable, this is about 3 alpine maps being the fairest and most player catering choice.

 

Actually I would prefer if we also had 2 EBs but I don't think people are up for such a drastical, but absolutely brilliant, change.

 I love desert. get lost.

[Mabi black.1824]

17 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

And thats why people need to be more careful when they say things as OP is saying. Critisism is ok,they can work with that. But the hate against this map and asking to delete it is straight up disrespect to anyone having worked ONE YEAR to create

hi caedmon,

you are right, and I would never allow myself to disrespect all the people who do their job.

I like diversity, so I also like the diversity of the desert ; it's just that I would like more ; now that you have explained to me how much work it takes to create a map I would say that arenanet you will have to organize in some way,

like all companies, it could in the period of less commitment, carry out the work for new maps; after all, it would be nice to have more and run them periodically. in my opinion it would help to break the usual dimanica and would be appreciated by many.

[Caedmon.6798]

13 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

It is a commercial product and I am the customer. I am not supposed to "just accept the product being terrible". Especially if it bundled with other products I wanna use.

Desert map would be fine if it was free extra option that isn't linked with other maps, like EotM. For example a "carebear solution that cares about everyones feelings" led to terrible solutions like linking system, instead of deleting some servers, that was near worst solution to reduce amount of tiers in WvW.

I am actually taking into consideration the companys interest when I recommend easy solution. It is obvious they do not want to work hard on WvW, so I just offer them ezpz few lines of code solutions. I could make a 10 page review on how to improve Desert map, but would it make any difference? No. They're just too lazy/understaffed.

Changing desert map into alpine gives us 90% of the benefit for 5% work: they could do 100% work to make desert map as fair and popular as alpine map, but is it worth it? And is it reasonable thing to ask? Asking a poor person to fork out 10k?

Actually if you work in a creative job, sometimes you waste decades or a lifetime to make bad things that others don't like. You just gotta accept it. It is the price for freedom of mind. So you should have absolutely 0 sympathy. I do not want ugly art piece on my wall even if the artist worked 20 years to make it. It is his weakness if he takes it personally and can't bounce up. Delete this monstrosity.

Well thats the thing, You think it's terrible. I think it's an amazing map with lots of potential and more room for tactical play,which i find to be much more interesting as rushing from spawn to a designated area in 20 seconds over and over, also in its design the map is much more creative and interesting as EB or Alpine, in Every way. There seems to have been much more thought about creating this map as the flat EB and Alpine maps.


 @Mabi black. 
I cant disagree with you there,i'd also like they introduce new aspects in All the current maps,not just desert. I actually think,desert is the last map that needs any major changes.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Xenesis.6389]

27 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

i find to be much more interesting as rushing from spawn to a designated area in 20 seconds over and over, also in its design the map is much more creative and interesting as EB or Alpine, in Every way.

So what you're saying is you enjoy sight seeing while strutting from spawn to a designated area in 60 seconds over and over?

I saw a rock once in desert, it wasn't interesting the second time I saw it.....

 

Desert may be more "creative" and have much more places for "tactical play", but most of it never gets used so it's wasted, not when it takes longer to get alerted, longer to get to places, longer for players to even respond from other maps, a lot of fights tend to happen at the objectives themselves, unlike alpine which a lot of fights can happen in the middle of nowhere.

 

Some people just like to get to brawls, and some people like looking at desert sand I guess. 

[Caedmon.6798]

1 minute ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

So what you're saying is you enjoy sight seeing while strutting from spawn to a designated area in 60 seconds over and over?

I saw a rock once in desert, it wasn't interesting the second time I saw it.....

 

Desert may be more "creative" and have much more places for "tactical play", but most of it never gets used so it's wasted, not when it takes longer to get alerted, longer to get to places, longer for players to even respond from other maps, a lot of fights tend to happen at the objectives themselves, unlike alpine which a lot of fights can happen in the middle of nowhere.

 

Some people just like to get to brawls, and some people like looking at desert sand I guess. 

No,I'm not saying that. And it should be pretty clear what it is what I am talking about since ive said it several times already. Im not gonna repeat myself over and over.

[Xenesis.6389]

Pfft desert so bad the ruins for bloodlust aren't even in the same places as alpine.

The art is so well done that walls at earth are not even connected, what's with the weird square empty space at the walls in nw and ne outer? can't even target aoes there, it's like... I dunno.. a pillar is suppose to be there not 5ft north of it... Impassable roots in the middle of well worn walkways, how is it well travelled if there's a friggin mini tree in the middle of it? Necro tower supply spot placed badly onto the ground that the texture distorts.

Know something would instantly fix this map up? put up two walls between the gate and cata walls of north garri on either side so you have to go around the tower areas to reach, especially the double cata wall, suddenly those towers have some value. Take out all the impassable mini trees in the map, use only passable shrubs.

But lets give them a pass because the grain of sands are beautiful every single time you walk by! also the led lights in earth are pretty at night!

Edited April 12, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Ronin.4501]

Doesn't the OP make this same annoying thread like every other month??  I think at this point, my vote is to do exactly the opposite of whatever it is the OP is asking for, simply out of spite.

[Riba.3271]

3 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Doesn't the OP make this same annoying thread like every other month??  I think at this point, my vote is to do exactly the opposite of whatever it is the OP is asking for, simply out of spite.

Correction: Every year

And the the point holds true after so many. Nothing has changed. People cry "desert map is fixable!" but nothing is happening.

Anyways, I am not hater of desert map design really. . Desert map is great if all 3 servers are involved, with only 1 or 2, it is terrible. The lord room design mirrors that. There are just too little enemies there are and it impacts scoring massively.

Desert map amongst alpines breaks the whole system. I wholeheartedly support having 3 desert maps instead of 2 alpine + 1 desert but people have chosen alpine. I would have done same for desert if it was much more popular than alpine.

So 3 desert, 3 alpine, doesn't really make difference for me. But I am not really spiteful person like you ^^ All I demand is a logical system that people enjoy.

So thank you, opposite (3 desert) is actually better than we currently have. You have suggested improvement to WvW. Your tone however suggests you, at least subconciously, also think 3 alpine is better than 3 desert, so I do not see why are you so against having annual thread for that change.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Threather.9354

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Doesn't the OP make this same annoying thread like every other month??  I think at this point, my vote is to do exactly the opposite of whatever it is the OP is asking for, simply out of spite.

Heh, well you would be doing the opposite of a lot of things since some people will contradict themselves!

But as for some real contribution to the topic, do you think it's fair that DBL is always red? That means the weakest server usually has it.

[Xenesis.6389]

33 minutes ago, Threather.9354 said:

So 3 desert, 3 alpine, doesn't really make difference for me. But I am not really spiteful person like you ^^ All I demand is a logical system that people enjoy.

So thank you, opposite (3 desert) is actually better than we currently have. You have suggested improvement to WvW. Your tone however suggests you, at least subconciously, also think 3 alpine is better than 3 desert, so I do not see why are you so against having annual thread for that change.

Maybe they should experiment with having 3 desert, 3 alpine, 1 ebg, in a match, but cut down on the max amount of players per home map by half. 🤔

Then players get to choose which of the two or both maps are their real "home" maps to defend, while mag sticks with ebg. 😆

Also forces a cut on blobs to more manageable zerg sizes for maps, except ebg, leave it's map cap as is. Unless they want to include eotm and cut ebg cap in half too lol.

Only big problem with more maps, is more options for places to be, spreads out forces too much if there isn't the right population for it at the time. But it might even encourage more smaller pug tags to show up over all the maps.

This will never happen of course, just a thought to throw out, here, and then in the garbage as usual....

[Bristingr.5034]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:36 AM, Caedmon.6798 said:

They work their kitten off,they slept in the office,they barely slept at all. They put everything in creating something amazing.

I'm not going to praise them for doing crunch. That's terrible and the publisher should be dragged over the hot coals for it.

On the topic of RBL -- TC actually LIKES that BL. We have guilds that would run exclusively in it because it's fun. I won't say that map is perfect and definitely some changes would be welcome, but what we need is a 3rd unique map (I vote one with lots of trees and water to allow underwater fights).

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bristingr.5034

[Riba.3271]

3 hours ago, Bristingr.5034 said:

On the topic of RBL -- TC actually LIKES that BL. We have guilds that would run exclusively in it because it's fun. I won't say that map is perfect and definitely some changes would be welcome, but what we need is a 3rd unique map (I vote one with lots of trees and water to allow underwater fights).

Actually I have been playing around with idea of underwater/island map. So it would be truly neutral map where there is like this flying pancake in the sky and you can choose to "teleport down" at edge of it anywhere. This would spawn you at the edge of the middle island, at the center of that island would be a castle to take. So all 3 teams have same spawn with that spawn at the middle of the map. You can't however see what angle enemy is choosing to go to from your spawn, but you can still easily arrange fights with enemy commander.

 

Then starts the water where you would have to dive to enter "underwater keeps/towers" that are within air bubbles. Inner walls would typically be sieged within land environment, and outer ones from within the water. Sometimes you could treb things from nearby island towers.

 

Of course there would be underwater dolyaks and camps, most likely some kind of hairy large quaggans carrying supply.

All keeps and towers wouldn't be underwater, but there would be island ones too. There would also be large continent at one side so if some servers prefer land, they can fight over that.

 

First you would need to improve underwater combat and you would do this by increasing swimming speed and dodge distance underwater. Also maybe Skimmers could be used for traversal so distances between places could be bit bigger.

 

The benefit of this kind of map is that it doesn't need to be even remotely symmetrical since all the teams have same identical spawn. It isn't without it faults though, it is most likely too easy to avoid fights in such a map. And your upgraded things will be as close to enemy spawn as yours.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Threather.9354