What is needed to shift the dps meta?

[Crab Fear.1624]

59 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

You heard it here first, quantity of skills is far more important than quality. Therefore firebrand is the most OP of them all.

Originally, firebrand was busted AF.

But, where else should they put the traits into?

By itself, steal only teleports with a target, otherwise nothing, and it creates an item depending on who/what the steal targeted.

So, with just base steal, it can only work with a target, and even then only gives an item based on the person/thing we steal from.

But, arguing with anyone on here trying to say steal is overloaded is just taking troll bait.

But, maybe they can give thief more profession skills that don't require a target and buff those. Maybe steal can just steal but we can have a kit that let's us press f skills and decide when those benefits should be applied.

Mesmer profession skills should all have a cast tune, same for attunement swaps and guard profession skills, and they should only do 1 thing, not 4 or 5, each being overloaded. 

This is your logic.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624

[Morwath.9817]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

(stuff)

Also, Morwath stopped being a quaggan?

Lol

 

 

Since I came back last year. Just noticed? 😮

 

Thief has very unique mechanic you seem to miss, it has no cooldowns on weapon skill and can use his Initiative pool freely as he pleases. While I don't really have a problem with Steal itself, it certainly is the most overloaded skill in entire game, there is no doubt about that.

 

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

11 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Originally, firebrand was busted AF.

But, where else should they put the traits into?

By itself, steal only teleports with a target, otherwise nothing, and it creates an item depending on who/what the steal targeted.

So, with just base steal, it can only work with a target, and even then only gives an item based on the person/thing we steal from.

But, arguing with anyone on here trying to say steal is overloaded is just taking troll bait.

But, maybe they can give thief more profession skills that don't require a target and buff those. Maybe steal can just steal but we can have a kit that let's us press f skills and decide when those benefits should be applied.

Mesmer profession skills should all have a cast tune, same for attunement swaps and guard profession skills, and they should only do 1 thing, not 4 or 5, each being overloaded. 

This is your logic.

"if you take 0 traits steal is just a teleport"

lOgiC

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

DPS war:
Berserk grants pulsing perma quickness+resistance.

That would be nice but see below. I think the last iteration of this suggestion was nice, where Burst of Aggression gets refreshed -every time you use a burst skill in berserk mode- instead of just once upon activation. Applying resistance on burst use would fit here as well. 

Quote

War gets resistance every time they swap weapons.

I'm concerned about that invalidating builds/counterplay. Just objectively I think we shouldn't be leaning too hard into "War hits hard, but its easily countered by blind and weakness, but actually no." reduce that resistance application scope a bit so that vomiting blind -does- work, but not -all- the time. 

Instead maybe halve or reduce by two thirds the CD of  Berserker Stance. It does nothing but give resistance and adren now, so there's no reason for it to be a 30 second cd.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

You forgot it's also instacast, casted while you are CCed as well.

You cannot counter it unless an instinct prediction when the thief is going to use it and hope he does.

A good thief never miss his steal, like 1 out of 10 maybe.

Yall are weird talking like steal is uncounterable/bloated/needs nerfing when it literally brings the thief to you and only has a few situations where it would logically be used.

Just use a flowchart.

If a thief is initiating? Probably starting with steal. 

What does the thief hit you with mainhand with steal? Is it a sword or a dagger?  Then you need to be more concerned about the daze from sleight of hand (if there is one) and will need to manage your blocks AFTER you see steal go off if they are daredevil. Core thief doesn't have unblockable steal, daredevil does (Swipe). You can force them to stay in range of you by keeping out of range of swipe when you don't want it used on you, or stand in an area where steal doesn't allow thieves to path. 

Did they hit you with something else and now are shooting you with a pistol? Then you need to be concerned with the steal itself and keep a mental note of its cooldown and the thief's distane for you so you dont get condi loaded by shadow strike/repeater.

The button's instant sure, but you can pretty easily get a sense of when a thief might feel compelled to push it and respond to that. 

I maintain a lot of yall just don't like fighting thieves and also refuse to play one to see what you're up against. 

 

10 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

It isn't? Certainly the most overloaded instant ability in the game.

• Teleport;
• Grants Might, Fury, Swiftness, Vigor;
• Steals two boons (stability>protection>rest);
• Dazes interrupting even thru stability, because look point above;
• Grants Stealth and Stealth gives venom, enables Rending Shade (more boonrip or fear);
• In case od DD unblockable as well.

This argument is like saying  Mantra of Distraction:

• gives vuln,
• gives quickness to mes,
• gives weakness,
• inflicts blind,
• inflicts confusion,
• and adds a 15 sec recharge onto whatever skill it hits

That's not steal. That's a build built around steal because thieves are forced to take trickery. You can make any skill seem overpowered by making a build that highlights it then claiming it has all those traits base kit, while ignoring context. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Crab Fear.1624]

19 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Since I came back last year. Just noticed? 😮

 

Thief has very unique mechanic you seem to miss, it has no cooldowns on weapon skill and can use his Initiative pool freely as he pleases. While I don't really have a problem with Steal itself, it certainly is the most overloaded skill in entire game, there is no doubt about that.

 

 

Freely is a very generous description.

You know how much stuff cost?

You know that after 2-3 skills everything is not usable?

That means because of the economics currently in thief initiative, they use less skills than any class in the game.

How?

Initiative is global across both weapons, so any skill used affects the pool of both sets, and while you may know this, there are those who are following this conversation that might not.

For example, let's imagine thief has full initiative with the max pool. (15)

Use a skill a few times.

Choose some of the combinations, heartseker is the cheapest at 3, most are 5 or higher.

After 2-3 skills, you are tapped out.

One this puts everything on cooldown, doesn't matter if you swap weapons.

Once you are at zero every skill is on cooldown for the t=initiative cost, and it is at the t=(initiative cost) - (available initiative).

After any engagement, every skill is subject to this, every time you want to use a skill.

No cooldowns have drawbacks too.

Our most piwer skills cost 7 to 8 initiative, so spamming has really been put down into Heartbreakers and dual attacks, but they are a chain, that add up to 6, and so two times in the limit 

 

Realize that after a skill has been used 2 -3 times, a thief has very limited escape options for about 6 to 8 seconds before they can do much, and even then it's not a full reset.

 

 

[Morwath.9817]

17 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This argument is like saying  Mantra of Distraction:

• gives vuln,
• gives quickness to mes,
• gives weakness,
• inflicts blind,
• inflicts confusion,
• and adds a 15 sec recharge onto whatever skill it hits

That's not steal. That's a build built around steal because thieves are forced to take trickery. You can make any skill seem overpowered by making a build that highlights it then claiming it has all those traits base kit, while ignoring context. 

 

...but all that is WEAK compared to what Steal has to offer as package vs package. The builds will always be built around Steal, as long as it offers as much as it does. Its unrealistic to go for anything else when Steal does soo much, what is worse, you really can't buff anything on Thief without making it completly broken as long as Steal with Trickery has such insane impact.

 

  

12 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Freely is a very generous description.

You know how much stuff cost?

You know that after 2-3 skills everything is not usable?

That means because of the economics currently in thief initiative, they use less skills than any class in the game.

How?

Initiative is global across both weapons, so any skill used affects the pool of both sets, and while you may know this, there are those who are following this conversation that might not.

For example, let's imagine thief has full initiative with the max pool. (15)

Use a skill a few times.

Choose some of the combinations, heartseker is the cheapest at 3, most are 5 or higher.

After 2-3 skills, you are tapped out.

One this puts everything on cooldown, doesn't matter if you swap weapons.

Once you are at zero every skill is on cooldown for the t=initiative cost, and it is at the t=(initiative cost) - (available initiative).

After any engagement, every skill is subject to this, every time you want to use a skill.

No cooldowns have drawbacks too.

Our most piwer skills cost 7 to 8 initiative, so spamming has really been put down into Heartbreakers and dual attacks, but they are a chain, that add up to 6, and so two times in the limit 

 

Realize that after a skill has been used 2 -3 times, a thief has very limited escape options for about 6 to 8 seconds before they can do much, and even then it's not a full reset.

 

 

 

Imagine I've played Thief and I know how it works. It has its pros and cons. Like being forced to do Attunement dance on Elementalist, or the way Revenant and his energy flows. Not everything is just superior advantage. Don't act like Thief is the only class with drawbacks.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

26 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

...but all that is WEAK compared to what Steal has to offer as package vs package. The builds will always be built around Steal, as long as it offers as much as it does. Its unrealistic to go for anything else when Steal does soo much, what is worse, you really can't buff anything on Thief without making it completly broken as long as Steal with Trickery has such insane impact.

Half the steal buttons have a cast time atm and arent ports. I would -love- not being forced to use trickery if it meant I could press more than 2 attack buttons when not using it. I think you're really putting the cart before the horse here. 

Baseline thieves have 12 init, specter has 9. Shortbow 5 costs eight, with many of the major skills across the weapons sets costing four to six. 

Thieves aren't all building trickery just to buff steal. It's unrealistic to go for anything else because once you step off of trickery you have half a class. 

Also power block isnt weak, what are you on about. Point mantra of distraction with power block at anyone trying to heal and see what happens. You  practically do what steal does with no port commitment and a larger interrupt window in exchange for no boonrip.

Quote

 It has its pros and cons

You're doing the thing about the cart and the horse. See above. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Curennos.9307]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

So, you want to tell me pistol whip was balanced?

 

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

would be blatantly overpowered on another class but (debatably, in some cases) aren't on thief - such as pistol whip, flanking/larc strike, shadowshot, etc.

I'd be more motivated to explain things to you if you proved there was more of a chance you'd actually read it. I addressed your terribly flawed comparison already and you've already jumped to your next almost entirely unrelated oneliner.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

So, you want to tell me pistol whip was balanced?

Imagine thinking pistol whip wasn't balanced.

Did Sindrener traumatize you? 

Quote

I'd be more motivated to explain things to you if you proved there was more of a chance you'd actually read it. I addressed your terribly flawed comparison already and you've already jumped to your next almost entirely unrelated oneliner.

No, I choose violence.

Pistol whip was balanced and people that couldnt exploit the dodge window in between stuns are the same people getting floated by Harbinger shroud 5 and the specter pull well now. Change my mind.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Morwath.9817]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Half the steal buttons have a cast time atm and arent ports. I would -love- not being forced to use trickery if it meant I could press more than 2 attack button when not using it. I think you're really putting the cart before the horse here. 

Baseline thieves have 12 init, specter has 9. Shortbow 5 costs eight, with many of the major skills across the weapons sets costing four to six. 

Thieves aren't all building trickery just to buff steal. It's unrealistic to go for anything else because once you step off of trickery you literally have half a class. 

 

I know and thats another issue. Imho Thief badly needs a rework making less stealth and steal heavy, having other options and all traitlines "equally" useful (like once I said, Necromancer is great example of well balanced traitlines compared to each other).

[Spellhunter.9675]

57 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Imagine thinking pistol whip wasn't balanced.

I did not say that

 

58 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Did Sindrener traumatize you? 

He did, actually.

[Crab Fear.1624]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I know and thats another issue. Imho Thief badly needs a rework making less stealth and steal heavy, having other options and all traitlines "equally" useful (like once I said, Necromancer is great example of well balanced traitlines compared to each other).

No, Thief is not needing a rework.

It is its own unique flavor.

Less stealth, more revenant.

Less Steal, less Thief.

Necromancer is a problematic class, because it is super ez and super effective, meaning it will draw in "super players" in super amounts 

 

[Morwath.9817]

1 minute ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

No, Thief is not needing a rework.

It is its own unique flavor.

Less stealth, more revenant.

Less Steal, less Thief.

Necromancer is a problematic class, because it is super ez and super effective, meaning it will draw in "super players" in super amounts 

 

Ofc it does. Acrobatics feels like poor joke nowadays. I remember once upon a time we had more fun and interactive builds to fight against, when Thieves were actualy not camping stealth 24/7. I haven't said less Steal, but less overloaded steal 🙃, like moving some Steal effects elsewhere on Thief toolkit. I'm against just nerfing things, that leads nowhere.

 

What I meant about Necro is that its trait lines are balanced more or less compared to each other. You can make choices, choices have consequences, but you can play more than one way and still be more or less viable, which should be goal for all classes rather than having one trick pony traitlines.

[Myror.7521]

first problems of pvp are actually. To many passive aoe non damaging conditions are around. and some condi builds are Burst ways faster than any power build.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Warrior would be the only one that could complain about being cheated.

Is this my cue?

[OutOfOrder.3719]

Could give the harbringer healing back to shroud and blight to make it stand out as new dps class.

 

Right now it dies way to easily, especially in 1 vs 2 encounters.

Edited April 7, 2022 by OutOfOrder.3719

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

All of you forgot that it's the only profession mechanic thief has.

Steal(traited) is a better and more reliable boon remover than corrupt boon. Just saying.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Kozumi.5816