Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Aravind.9610 said:

If you want to then ask for it instead of saying I shouldn't.

I don't really need a vendor. But A vendor is still a better idea then change the dynamic of the game just so your Gold per hour can go up. 

[Aravind.9610]

Just now, Albi.7250 said:

I don't really need a vendor. But A vendor is still a better idea then change the dynamic of the game just so your Gold per hour can go up. 

And what do you think this "dynamic of the game" is?

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

Yeah because trophy shipments are worth 5g. Maybe in your dreams. My way offers better rewards and allows raiders to sell at a rate beyond 5g if they choose on TP based on supply and demand

They're precisely not. The goal is to not make a raid clear worth 75 gold, becoming The Absolute Best Gold Per Hour In The Game, lol.

[Erise.5614]

LI were never designed to be tradable. Both LI generator (aka weekly raid boss clears) and LI sinks (aka crafting) are inadequate to sustain a healthy economy. 

Gold is an intermediate currency with the primary purpose of facilitating the player economy. But because of that the economy needs to be carefully balanced. Acquisition (as any increase in volume will cause inflation), spending (as any decrease will cause deflation) and conversion into other currencies (e.g. gold -> mats) need to be designed very carefully and with long term sustainability in mind. 

With EoD I honestly believe too many mats have too easy conversions to and from gold. And a good solution to issues most certainly isn't to directly tie more and more currencies into that economy. This only increases the complexity and therefore deteriorates the balance in all aspects. Especially when done retroactively. 

Edit: Also, as mentioned. Raid rewards are already the highest in the game in terms of value without damaging the economy. Excellently so as I frankly came to expect from the HoT economy design era which has been quite far above anything before or since. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Aravind.9610]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

They're precisely not. The goal is to not make a raid clear worth 75 gold, becoming The Absolute Best Gold Per Hour In The Game, lol.

And why not? That would make more people raid.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And what do you think this "dynamic of the game" is?

Oh thought it made sense in context. Not Everything in the game should be buyable with Gold. Other wise we are playing on the same map with the highest Gold per hour.

[Aravind.9610]

Just now, Albi.7250 said:

Oh thought it made sense in context. Not Everything in the game should be buyable with Gold. Other wise we are playing on the same map with the highest Gold per hour.

I already said someone has to sell the LI, meaning raids have to be completed, making the content relevant and rewarding again.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And why not? That would make more people raid.

We are at Page 20 of  a threat where people are very clear they never gonna raid no matter how much they like the reward.

[Aravind.9610]

2 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

We are at Page 20 of  a threat where people are very clear they never gonna raid no matter how much they like the reward.

And they don't have to. WE raid and sell stuff and get rewards in the process. And people can change their mind if gold per hour in raids is better than open world farming. Its why people do everyday t4 fractals.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Aravind.9610

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And why not? That would make more people raid.

No, it would make more people do Efficient And Fast Raid Clears. Regular raiders would be absolutely incentivized NOT to run trainings or PUG groups, because it is in their interest to a) clear the raid fast and b) make sure fewer people do so, so that c) more people want to buy the LI off the TP, and not earn it themselves (for use or for sale).
Making LI TPable would have negative outcomes on most parts of the game.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 minute ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And they don't have to. WE raid and sell stuff and get rewards in the process. And people WILL raid if the gold per hour in raids is better than open world farming.

What is it now? It makes people raid more or increase your gold per hour. Cause they dont gonna raid no matter the reward or they would do already. If they want maximum gold: THey gonna work 2 hours more on minimum wage and buy it before they go raiding.

[Aravind.9610]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

No, it would make more people do Efficient And Fast Raid Clears. Regular raiders would be absolutely incentivized NOT to run trainings or PUG groups, because it is in their interest to a) clear the raid fast and b) make sure fewer people do so, so that c) more people want to buy the LI off the TP, and not earn it themselves (for use or for sale).
Making LI TPable would have negative outcomes on most parts of the game.

And how are they incentivized to run training groups or pug groups now? They do it because its the only way to get new players into the content when older players leave the game.

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And they don't have to. WE raid and sell stuff and get rewards in the process. And people can change their mind if gold per hour in raids is better than open world farming. Its why people do everyday t4 fractals.

This is heavily underselling the difference between fractals and raids.

Besides like 3 fractals you can have very consistent experiences and has a mostly smooth learning curve designed around weeks of steady progress. With plenty of suboptimal dynamics on its own. But the on boarding and PUG experience is solid. 

Raids are the polar opposite. Getting into PUGs is an extremely uncomfortable and slow experience. Min/maxing rewards already favors heavy gatekeeping borderline necessitating training communities. Increasing rewards just means the difference in gold per hour is gonna differ even more between strong and non strong groups.

 

And again. Raids already have the highest value rewards in the game by far. Not flat gold. But once you don't draw value from raids anymore there is no actual progress to be made anymore. Inflating the economy from the top down is a bad idea. 

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And how are they incentivized to run training groups or pug groups now? They do it because its the only way to get new players into the content when older players leave the game.

Yes. And now, people kinda like to have more players in the content they enjoy. Because the rewards unique to the content aren't TPable, and getting new blood into the game mode doesn't impact negatively their bottom line two-fold.
How are you not understanding such a simple concept?
When's the last time you saw a TP baron run a TP flipping training session?

[Erise.5614]

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Yes. And now, people kinda like to have more players in the content they enjoy. Because the rewards unique to the content aren't TPable, and getting new blood into the game mode doesn't impact negatively their bottom line two-fold.
How are you not understanding such a simple concept?
When's the last time you saw a TP baron run a TP flipping training session?

Actually, there is baron training communities as they are always struggling to maintain high enough spirit shards and out of TP mat liquidity is not too good either. TP baroning is much harder, much riskier and requires much more liquidity due to the 15% cut. Which is why a significant of the major shenanigans happening there are associated with professional gold selling and exploiting. 

Your basic point is correct but GW2 actually has get rich quick schemes that work to the benefit of all parties (though being extremely crafting and business relationship heavy. Which is only enjoyable to a subsection of the community)

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Actually, there is baron training communities as they are always struggling to maintain high enough spirit shards and out of TP mat liquidity is not too good either. TP baroning is much harder, much riskier and requires much more liquidity due to the 15% cut. Which is why a significant of the major shenanigans happening there are associated with professional gold selling and exploiting. 

Your basic point is correct but GW2 actually has get rich quick schemes that work to the benefit of all parties. 

Would you say there are more TP flip training sessions, or raid training sessions?
Cause you could always find *some* of them somewhere, I guess, but not enough to refute the general point of "not in best interest, so not done as often as not".

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Would you say there are more TP flip training sessions, or raid training sessions?
Cause you could always find *some* of them somewhere, I guess, but not enough to refute the general point of "not in best interest, so not done as often as not".

More raid training but not due to lack of communities wanting to offer it but due to lack of player interest. They are always looking for more people to trade with, for more people to run trading guilds, for more people to sell spirit shards, for more WvW commanders and so on. 

[Klowdy.3126]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:29 AM, Albi.7250 said:

 

 They don't. I am quoting myself yet again:

But fairness doesn't seem to be the end goal for the loudest part of the pro OW-Legendary armor crowd. WvW is comparable to OW content in effort if you wanna but out minimal effort. They are looking at a 300 Hour grind. Are you willing to disable all your PvE rewards for a PvE Legendary armor track that does take 300 hours to complete?

 

Good ideas can come from bad ideas. Case and point, helmets exist. Just because people want this easy reward doesn't mean the idea of putting in effort in the OW to earn legendary armor is bad. It's up to the people in charge to make it fair. 

[blp.3489]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

And exotic stat-change ideas get downvoted and ran away from in this thread faster than you can say "legendary". 
So one can easily conclude that most of the "pro-OW-leggy" people don't want the "neat QOL functionality of exotic stat-change gear". They want Legendary Armor.

inb4 someone tells me I'm strawmanning or something

If you give me discounted non-Legendary Armor with ascended stats that has all the benefits of the legendary armory I'm certainly all in.  Give it the skin of a level 10 armor for all I care, just like the wvw armor I'm going to transmute it or cover it up with an outfit anyway.  To me "Legendary" is just a word, I want the QOL improvements of the legendary armory not the "prestige" of "legendary" armor.  I don't think it is useful to the discussion to assume that people want prestige and are dishonest when they tell you they don't.  To tell the truth I don't recall ever observing a player in game and thinking wow he's got a prestigious item!

Consider legendary rune's and sigils, they aren't even visible but they give you QOL benefits.  You could buy and destroy quite a number of expensive runes and sigils for the price of a legendary sigil but I still prefer to craft a legendary sigil and be free to try out different ones on a whim, even the one's that I would otherwise have to obtain by doing some particular content.  And it is available on all your level 80 characters forever.  How sweet a QOL benefit is that?  Why would you assume that I don't want that?

[SlayerXX.7138]

20 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Good ideas can come from bad ideas. Case and point, helmets exist. Just because people want this easy reward doesn't mean the idea of putting in effort in the OW to earn legendary armor is bad. It's up to the people in charge to make it fair. 

Correct! But this post made it clear that most of them don't want a fair reward. And Anet isn't gonna make huge changes if there isn't a demand for it. Big demand only exists(looking at the discussion in this threat) if it is on the level of effort as that amulet. Which wouldn't sit well with a lot of people. When I can get account wide legendary Armor in maybe 40 hours of rather relaxed gameplay, why should I ever bother with ascended again. This makes all acquisition methods for armor irrelevant.

 

20 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

If you give me discounted non-Legendary Armor with ascended stats that has all the benefits of the legendary armory I'm certainly all in.

In shorter terms: old legendary armor? Sure maybe for halve the grind of PvP/WvW. It just wont be as easy as the amulet as that was a cash grab to funnel people into the Gem store for LW. QOL progression and Gold is all there is to give in the game as a reward after all.

[Redfeather.6401]

I have almost every weapon type and armour type in ascended right now and I will never grind for legendary just for the QoL features. The grind is too much after all that I've done. I am not the type of person to spend my life on a single game. I play multiple games. If a game starts asking too much then it takes a backseat to other games.

But if they added a way to turn my ascended into something that the legendary armoury will accept, then I would consider doing that task and that is a way of retaining players like me.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Correct! But this post made it clear that most of them don't want a fair reward. And Anet isn't gonna make huge changes if there isn't a demand for it. Big demand only exists(looking at the discussion in this threat) if it is on the level of effort as that amulet. Which wouldn't sit well with a lot of people. When I can get account wide legendary Armor in maybe 40 hours of rather relaxed gameplay, why should I ever bother with ascended again. This makes all acquisition methods for armor irrelevant.

 

In shorter terms: old legendary armor? Sure maybe for halve the grind of PvP/WvW. It just wont be as easy as the amulet as that was a cash grab to funnel people into the Gem store for LW. QOL progression and Gold is all there is to give in the game as a reward after all.

Ppl having the Legendary Armor , might buy the Templates .

And they can re-design templates , where the 1st gives you a shadowy form if you have 3x Boons  on you + you are in combat .

2nd template , it evolves , and you need  2x Boon , and can happen out of combat.

3rd template unlock the Dj Zeus..i mean the shadowy , form  as combat tonic

[Sobx.1758]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

First of all, you're assuming I don't raid.  I raid once a week now, so your first assumption is wrong.

You're assuming I don't WvW, that's not true, since I'm rank 1280 in WvW.  Doesn't really change a word I've said. I'm not predominantly a WvWer and spending hours in a game type I don't prefer is hours that I spend away from the game type I do prefer.

Bold of you to now claim it's my assumption. Meanwhile, it's not exactly some baseless assumption when in the very same post I've quoted there, you wrote:

On 4/14/2022 at 12:50 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I already have vision. I already have aurora. I already went through and finished Season of the dragons. I'd love to work on legendary armor,. it's something I don't have.

As far as my understanding of what "I'd love to..." means, it directly states that you're not doing that. Maybe it was a typo, maybe that's not what you've meant, I have no problem with that -but that is what you wrote, so don't try to blame me now for some "assumptions" about you, just because I've commented directly on what you wrote in the very same post I've quoted there.

 

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

You seem to think it's okay to channel people into content they don't like, that requires coordination, that they need a group for that takes time.  And since a percentage of every game prefer to solo you lose some of those people in that process, whether it's reasonable or not for them to feel that way.

No, I think optional rewards that anyone can earn if they want to and decide to play broader content the game offers is perfectly reasonable. If someone doesn't want to, they don't need to. You're making your own decisions and as you've just dramatically uncovered, you are in fact already working on the armor through multiple sources. You are also free to do that.

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I've killed 11 raid bosses so far, or just over half.  It's not my preferred content. I'd rather not do it. It's not making the game more fun for me.  So I can get a piece of legendary armor, but be less happy playing the game doing it.  That's okay for you, but it's not okay for me.

Ah, so you're still working on it either way. But on the previous page you've claimed you were ok (ok-ish?) and "now that this thread popped out again, you're getting annoyed", which is why you've decided to announce on the forum "you'll spend less". So when you were working towards the reward/goal, you were not exactly annoyed to the point of spending less, but now that the thread is there and nothing else changed... you're spending less again? Or did this thread somehow pushed you to start working on the reward you want? I'm trying to get a vague timeline of what you've said in your posts in this specific thread within the span of less than a day to get a better understanading of what is happening here.

 

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

I am ask for Anet to do something it's already done. We have 3 pieces of legendary in the game that were just fine. Why should legendary armor be so specific that in PvE you can only get it through raids, which doesn't even have enough people supporting it to make new raids.

Because, again, as I've already said multiple times, that optional reward is made to entice people to play more of the game's content, not less of it. To make it absolutely clear, despite already repeating it in this post, I'll say it again: if you don't want to, then you don't need to. That is what "optional" means.

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

That's the one question no one is able to answer.

Hope I've answered it above.

[SlayerXX.7138]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. If you hyper focus on like one person and ignore everyone else in the thread. Then sure.

I literally asked for an appropriate and fair price. 

But it isn´t one person. It is 90% of the people. Not you, but the vast majority. And i tried to provide an comparable price. I even did write down a theoretical Mystic forge recipe which can be done solely by open world play which hits all criteria that were demanded from the OW Armor crowd. Which got ignored. Reposted by another user still ignored. And i am guessing of course here: Probably cause it seemed like to much work. Which ngl kinda stings a bit, as that took quite a bit of time and effort to research and calculate.(for a forum post anyway)

 

But hey I am just one guy and as people stated at the end Anet does decide. SO we will see.

[Sobx.1758]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:19 AM, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

i've probably said this before... but Raids, fractals, DRMs, and Strikes didn't exist at launch

Neither did legendary trinkets and armor. But apparently "what was and wasn't since the start" only matters when it supports the narrative you want it to support.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758