Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Linken.6345]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Not reading 15 pages, but since they added LI to EoD strikes my guess is that any non raid path forward to PvE legendary armor will be via the EoD strikes would be my guess.

Yes and we will still get threads like these since strikes are instanced just like raids so it is not a sulotion for some people

[SlayerXX.7138]

  

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

No one said that they didn't want a long hard grind for PvE armor though. They said they didn't want to raid. It's very simple.

PvPer - do what you always do, for a long time

WvWer - do what you always do for a long time

PvE'er - Raid or else.

If you don't see this as unfair, that's okay. But any reasonable person would in my opinion.

Some do Obviously. Most just say they do. What content do OW players play. Which content they wanna grind? Would they still enjoy the content if there old rewards would striped away in favor for progress towards legendary armor? The last time someone talked about using Gift of exploration is 8 pages deep in the thread now. The general opinion seem to be that rewards are unfairly distributed between game modes. That ignores the fact that besides Legendary armor there are no Rewards in WvW and PvP.  In proportion of Reward to time spend, there is arguable no worst place then PvP and WvW. And no one else in the Game you get less Reward for Effort then in the 2 Competitive modes.  I think it is underestimated how much grind is necessary solely for the legendary armor in these mode. That is why i urge people to be specific in what they are willing to do for  Legendary armor alone.

Some would of course rise up to the challenge! But if we are talking about major changes to the Game which need dev time for implementing and consideration we shoud be sure a high number of people gonna use that new content. It is questionable many People in OW gonna grind 300 hours for nothing but legendary armor. Which would be needed to be the case to ensure a fair reward Structure between game modes.

Edit: Nicer Version As the previous post got flagged as personal attack.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

What's your point here? This was an example of people complaining about something regardless of its actual validity because they felt like their efforts have been invalidated "by an event" which is something you even argued against which just further underlines my point. Like it or not but there is nothing "disingenuous" about my post.

What was your point there? A few people complaining about story amulet method being way too easy compared to transcendence (and getting pretty much laughed at from all sides of the spectrum, btw) had absolutely nothing to do with the thread you were responding to.

And you would not have had even such complains if the story amulet required something similar to Aurora or Vision collection. Which is exactly the reason why i have mentioned more than once that Transcendence/story amulet case is a special exception that should not be treated as an argument here. If OW legendary armor were to be made, it woulkd 99% not follow similar design, after all.

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

You might want to take your own advice here as it's quite easy to find mocking remarks like "If I spend six months in PvE, gimme" which shows in no uncertain terms how that person would stand to a WvW-esque implementation of an OW set.

First, there's a difference between few people making such remarks, and "every single person" wanting it, which was the original claim. And then you'd have to see that a large part of those "gimme" comments come from people that are actually against the OW legendary idea and are pure strawmen used in the attempt to shut the discussion down.

After all, it's very easy to claim some ideas are bad if you're the one that introduced them in the first place.

[blp.3489]

The original poster proposed a way to make it possible for OW players to get Raid legendary armor.  How about a way for OW players to earn wvw skirmish claim tickets?  In wvw you get these tickets for simply being on the map and maintaining your "participation" for numerous hours each week, no above average skill required.  Surely it isn't too hard to come up with some OW equivalent to that?

A not very serious proposal: create a new jade bot module that generates skirmish tickets instead of jade slivers or might trophies or the other current options.  I've got the Jade Sliver module and the slivers are accumulating very slowly, you have to be actively killing stuff to get them, you have to sacrifice the rewards that you would earn from using one of the other modules.  You just need to set an appropriate coefficient for how many claim tickets you get.  No significant development resources are required, it is the same code as the jade slivers module, it just deposits a different currency in the wallet.  Even simpler, add Legendary War Insight, or even skirmish tickets into the jade sliver vendor for whatever price is deemed appropriate.  Raid people don't lose the prestige of their raid legendary armor.

Edited April 13, 2022 by blp.3489
Added jade sliver vendor option

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

The original poster proposed a way to make it possible for OW players to get Raid legendary armor.  How about a way for OW players to earn wvw skirmish claim tickets?  In wvw you get these tickets for simply being on the map and maintaining your "participation" for numerous hours each week, no above average skill required.  Surely it isn't too hard to come up with some OW equivalent to that?

A not very serious proposal: create a new jade bot module that generates skirmish tickets instead of jade slivers or might trophies or the other current options.  I've got the Jade Sliver module and the slivers are accumulating very slowly, you have to be actively killing stuff to get them, you have to sacrifice the rewards that you would earn from using one of the other modules.  You just need to set an appropriate coefficient for how many claim tickets you get.  No significant development resources are required, it is the same code as the jade slivers module, it just deposits a different currency in the wallet.  Raid people don't lose the prestige of their raid legendary armor.

The thread has switched from alternate methods for Raid legendary armor towards options for separate OW legendary long ago, so yeah, this would probably work as well.

[Labjax.2465]

Well thought out, OP, and I agree with your proposal. It's already disproportionate effort as it is. If you go the WvW route, for example, all you have to do is look for a comm and follow a zerg, tag stuff enough to keep participation up, and leave if there isn't one; rinse and repeat over a long enough number of weeks/months and you can get the currencies needed for a full set of legendary armor. The only real challenge of it is to your patience. If you aren't a dedicated WvW player / struggle to find the game mode interesting even if you try really hard to be useful, you may get bored.

There is no prestige here other than time gates and putting the only PvE acquisition path of legendary armor into raids when the game hadn't even had them prior and was not built to support them properly, was always a move that comes across more like a way to ensure people do raids because they don't have enough appeal otherwise and not anything else, which is the kind of game design that leaves you going "if it was that desperate for appeal, why did you implement it in the first place..."

Just comes across like wanting to compete for the sake of it, in a world full of MMOs with raids. Legendary weapons set the legendary standard in the beginning and their standard was that yeah, it was very time-consuming, but you could take it on bit by bit over a long period of time. Then legendary armor made it about doing organized group play, which is fine in theory (it's an MMO, encourage organized group play, sure why not) except for the fact they tied it to a single kind of organized group play that hadn't even been in the game prior and was ill-supported by class and combat design. Another type of group play was staring them in the face the whole time... their open world events system with their grand metas, which is the core part of making the game feel alive when you are not in instanced areas. Why didn't that get the path for legendary armor acquisition? Why would you want to pull people out of the dynamic world that makes your MMO unique so they can hang out in an instance? To compete with other games, I guess. A phenomenon you hear of sometimes in business. "We gotta expand, expand, expand," instead of sticking to what they're good at and then lo and behold, they aren't good enough at what they expanded on and it's damaging their ability to do what they're good at and they have to reign it in later.

[Rinagal.9235]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes and we will still get threads like these since strikes are instanced just like raids so it is not a sulotion for some people

It wasn't meant to be in the first place, since strikes are basically same raids by design with only minor differencies like: being smaller locations with only one boss encounter, based on personal story assets to reduce production cost, different reward structure. It's still the same 10-man group instanced content with almost 100% (in case of strikes it's 100%) focus on boss encounters.

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

What was your point there?

Shouldn't be too hard to figure out given that it was part of the very same sentence: "people would be complaining no matter what".

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And you would not have had even such complains if the story amulet required something similar to Aurora or Vision collection.

Except ofc. "you would have" and we did. What's the hardest part for Aurora again? The JPs? Well guess what the amulet requires them too. All tree trinkets are about equal in terms of what the related PvE collections demand from the player (e.g. the amulet requires 241 achievements vs. 249 for Auoroa) it's just that the last one got cut into more pieces which is why someone who played them as they were released might have gotten the impression that it was less than it actually was.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Shouldn't be too hard to figure out given that it was part of the very same sentence: "people would be complaining no matter what".

Except ofc. "you would have" and we did. What's the hardest part for Aurora again? The JPs? Well guess what the amulet requires them too. All tree trinkets are about equal in terms of what the related PvE collections demand from the player (e.g. the amulet requires 241 achievements vs. 249 for Auoroa) it's just that the last one got cut into more pieces which is why someone who played them as they were released might have gotten the impression that it was less than it actually was.

Oh boy. The Transcendence complains were primarily about the cost difference. Because the story amulet has no material sink component. Nobody seriously proposes giving out legendary armor for free however. Crafting costs should definitely remain comparable.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

30 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh boy. The Transcendence complains were primarily about the cost difference. Because the story amulet has no material sink component. Nobody seriously proposes giving out legendary armor for free however. Crafting costs should definitely remain comparable.

The "Transcendence complains" were all over the place and ranged from "it's too easy" over "no additional costs" to "the path to a legendary amulet should stay sPvP exclusive". However all this is compleatly irrelevant as the argument you made and named as the reason for your "special exception" was "you would not have had even such complains if the story amulet required something similar to Aurora or Vision collection" which is what I was responding to.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

31 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh boy. The Transcendence complains were primarily about the cost difference. Because the story amulet has no material sink component. Nobody seriously proposes giving out legendary armor for free however. Crafting costs should definitely remain comparable.

It's not only the lack of material requirements, it's the fact that it took like 3 hours a week for about 5 month while Transcendence took 3 seasons(5-6 months if I'm correct) with more effort. There was minimal effort involved in the Champion Regalia on top of having no material requirement.

There were of course "Legendary amulet should stay PvP" and such complaints as well.

[Sobx.1758]

On 4/11/2022 at 3:56 PM, Erise.5614 said:

So competitive players shouldn't need to succeed in order to progress? Because that's a large enough challenge to warrant legendary armor. But anything shy of consistent, full raid clears is no effort at all and shouldn't make any progress at all towards a long term goal?

You don't need "consistent full raid clears" and it's still more consistent/reliable than the competitive modes would be if they relied on success.

Quote

No, I don't really understand that. I don't understand why competitive players don't have to be competitive and why PvE players are held to a higher standard. 

Which part of the posts you've quoted you don't understand exactly again?

PvE players aren't "held to a higher standard", since opposing players can "force" you to be near perfect, while raid/pve encounters don't require anywhere near perfection.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 1:44 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Considering that just few posts back, right here, it has been pointed out that more people have Aurora than Legendary Armor, even though as you noticed legendary armor is cheaper (and an ascended armor more costly and harder to obtain for a huge majority of players than trinkets), the person "conveniently ignoring" something is not me, but you.

I mean, as far as I see all he said there is that it's "not that common despite being fully OW". And considering it's 13% of gw2eff accounts for aurora and 11% accounts for armor, what he said seems correct. Additionally it's 11% for pve armor only, which is not accounting for pvp/wvw sets -add those and we might have a slightly different view on this whole "how many players got x" issue.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So I have to play a game type I don't like and don't play to get it, or raid which I don't play, whereas PvP  and WVW players can play the content they play all the time and get it organically. I see.

No, no, that seems to be a common misconception on this forum for some reason. You don't have to do anything here in regards of gear or content you choose to play, you are perfectly fine playing with ascended gear. In vast majority of cases, you're even perfectly fine playing with exotics, especially (but not exclusively) if you want to limit the content you're participating in to OW.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Kind of players 

1) super casuals - who aren't interested or never heard about legendary armors.

2) casuals who knew about it and like to have it but not in their priority coz not enough gold , not enough time to invest, not enough motivation.

3) regular players who are scared of disgusting toxic creatures that lurk in PvP and pve raids but have proper motivation to get legendary Armor -> they either join weekly raid training or participate in a nice friendly guild and try raiding (or) if they don't feel compatible/ comfortable to participate in raid modes, try wvw and work toward legy Armor.

4) Thick skin "low to no emotion" (who turn off chat or others' toxic behavior doesn't bother) players and toxic dimwits -> choose PvP legendary Armor.

5) WvW enthusiasts -> just chill in their game mode and do wvw things and get WvW legy Armor.

6) Entitled players -> these players won't approve / recognize raids as PvE and ignore the lore, story , cutscenes and continually try to brand raids as diff game mode and not pve, will demand to have another legendary Armor set. 

Even if these entitled players use the point "legendary is QoL" and players are willing and able to craft one, and if asked why aurora, vision unlock percentage is less , they say "they simply don't like it" where did their sense of "QoL" go to when it comes to legy trinkets? . They even say they don't want the awesome raid Armor animation skin effect /aura look but these PPL justify the reason for not crafting aurora bcoz they didn't craft it coz of looks, now they don't want legy Armor looks but QoL?  WTH ? Either these PPL are just arguing for the sake of arguing or... Some other conspiracy... Someone/some force driving them to just start and drag a thread every now and then reg this topic X)

 

You list six types of players but I'm none of those.  I have both vision and aurora. I have the legendary PVP and the legendary fractal backpiece. I even have all the legendary weapons pre EoD bar 1. But I don't fit in any of your categories. 

Trying to simplify stuff like this isn't really the answer. It's a fact that a percentage of the playerbase will feel disenfrachised over this, and some of those people may leave the game or spend less money.  I spend less money now on this game than I ever did, because I'm less happy with the game.  I can assume I'm not the only one.

 

But this game was a very casual game before raids were introduced and that was 3.5 years after the game came out. Many of us didn't buy a game with raids. Many of us didn't want to raid. Many of us were angry that raids were given a reward that might benefit us but we're not allowed to have it without doing content we didn't want to do, and wasn't in the game when we bought it.

But here's the real kicker.  Your logic is not stronger than our emotion. It doesn't really matter of a group of people is right or wrong, or if it's fair or not.  If we BELIEVE we are being treated unfairly, we will REACT like we are being treated unfairly no matter how many lists of types of players you can come up with.

At the end of the day, you can't justify a bad decision and in my opinion the decision to lock legendary armor behind raids (doing something most of us don't do and now have to do to get it) or PvP or WvW,  doing the stuff PvPers and WvWers do normally and they just get it organically are very different things.

Since the majority of the players in this game are PvE'ers (according to Anet themselves or at least Mike Obrien) and since the majority of that majority doesn't raid, you're potentially disenfranchising the largest player group in the game.

Make more lists of types of players. What do you think that gets you? Just try to have one that fits me next time.

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Some do Obviously. Most just say they do. What content do OW players play. Which content they wanna grind? Would they still enjoy the content if there old rewards would striped away in favor for progress towards legendary armor? The last person who was willing to pay with Gift of exploration is 8 pages behind us. Right now the all repeat the same thing: "why they deserve it".  Ignoring all the stuff they get by OW play the other modes don't get.  In proportion of Reward to time spend, there is arguable no worst place then PvP and WvW. And no one else in the Game you get less Reward for Effort then in the 2 Competitive modes.  And I think the second the realize how much grind there is too do for only Legendary armor they wont pursue it anyway.

Some Would of course! But if we are talking about major changes to the Game which need dev time for implementing and consideration. I really doubt many People in OW gonna grind 300 hours for nothing but legendary armor. Which would be the fair thing to do.

Why do raiders deserve it?  That's a silly question.  Well, you say, they play the hardest areas of the game. But some people are carried through raids.  So why do the guys who get carried through raids deserve it.

 

There are already three precedents for legendary gear in the open world.   Vision, Aurora and the new amulet. They're all open world content. I have them all. I jumped through all the hoops.   Why should armor be different.  Is armor somehow better or more important than jewelry. Does it give more stats? Why should armor be special.

Anet has found a way to put 3 legendary pieces in the open world, but in order to get these sets, open world players have to jump through hoops?  

Let me ask you another question. While WvW players are going for their legendary armor, or while PvP players are going for their legendary armor, how many rewards are they really giving up. Don't they continue to get rewards?  I have 2 pieces of legendary PvP armor and 1 piece of WvW legendary armor and I felt I was still getting rewards.

 

I feel like the arguments to try to prevent this are getting sillier, considering we already have 3 pieces of legendary gear in the game that are predominantly for open worlders.

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Why do raiders deserve it?  That's a silly question.  Well, you say, they play the hardest areas of the game. But some people are carried through raids.  So why do the guys who get carried through raids deserve it.

If you get carried through 150-750 raid encounters without improving at the game then... hey, lucky(??) you, I guess. But generally, that's just not a thing.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, no, that seems to be a common misconception on this forum for some reason. You don't have to do anything here in regards of gear or content you choose to play, you are perfectly fine playing with ascended gear. In vast majority of cases, you're even perfectly fine playing with exotics, especially (but not exclusively) if you want to limit the content you're participating in to OW.

Not my point. 
Normal regular typical WvW player plays WvW will eventually have enough tickets over time, no matter how much time, to get legendary armor. Dedicated WvW players will have it faster, but everyone can get it. How fast you get it depends on you playing the game you normally play in the way you normally play it.

 

Normal regular PvPers it's the same thing. You're killing people. You're capping points. That's what you're doing. The same thing you'd do  if you weren't working on legendary armor. If you just enjoy PvP and you play it a lot, you'll eventually be able to get legendary armor.

 

The bulk of this game is people who play story and open world content. Maybe some fractals, maybe some dungeons but at the end of the day most people don't raid and I don't believe most people do strike missions even.

Those people, the bulk, we're not worthy of legendary armor because we don't do the content you think we should do?  But WvW and PvP players can get it doing the content they normally do.  It doesn't matter what we need it matters what we want, because this is a game. I'm not playing it to put food on my family's table. I'm playing it to have fun. It's a reward I want. Who are you to tell me what I need.

 

Before I moved to Australia I didn't particularly care about hot dogs. But once I found that there wasn't anything resembling an american hot dog here, I was on a mission to find them, because I couldn't have them. This is human nature. Anet set this up.

 

Sorry here's a reward. Up until now you could get pretty much anything, including legendary weapons, just by playing. Now, though, you have to jump through this hoop, which didn't even exist when you bought the game.  You think that feels good? Doesn't feel good to me, and I spend money on a game by how good I feel about the game.

I don't feel like Anet is still making the same game. I'm not leaving over it. I'm not walking away. But sure I'll complain about it, because I'm not happy. Your logic isn't going to make me happy because it's not my logic. And I'm not alone. This is a huge group of people we're talking about. Casual open world players. Forcing them into PvP or raids because  people think that makes them worthy his hogwash. I already have vision. I already have aurora. I already went through and finished Season of the dragons. I'd love to work on legendary armor,. it's something I don't have.

But I don't want to sit in content I dislike for extended periods of time to get it, because that wasn't the deal I signed up for. For 3.5 years I didn't have to and Anet changed the game. Anyone who plays a game that's changed in a way they don't like has every right to say they don't like it. In the mean time, I'll spend less money than I used to.

[Vayne.8563]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you get carried through 150-750 raid encounters without improving at the game then... hey, lucky(??) you, I guess. But generally, that's just not a thing.

They sell raids. lol How can that not be a thing. Hell people complain about the number of people selling raids.  So it's absolutely a thing. If you don't believe me look at the US raid lfg for a while, or search the complaints about it. More and more people sell raids because more and more people buy raids, and those people deserve legendary armor.

Of all the arguments you've made, saying people aren't getting carried through raids is the weakest.

[Redfeather.6401]

18 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

This is why i do not make or bother with making legendaries, the whole thing is inane.

I can't do it either. I have played mmorpgs for decades now and I've said goodbye to a lot of games over the years and it hurts if I've had a lot of really time-consuming stuff on the account. It really bummed me out. I just can't do it anymore.

[blp.3489]

I skipped some pages in this thread so I hope I'm not repeating something that has already been said but when you look at the percentages that have legendary armor vs trinkets I can say that in my case I am very much interested in legendary armor because it will allow me to freely experiment with different builds without spending tons of gold on new armor sets that I won't end up using. I think the harder core players should be happy to have the OW people able to configure up metabattle builds on demand.  I know I have been much more willing to try different builds since getting some legendary armor.

I haven't even thought about getting legendary trinkets because there are so many ascended trinkets available for minor amounts of specialty currencies I have no other use for.  Producing a set of trinkets with a new stat is pretty easy.

I'm aware that with the amount of gold I have spent on legendary items I could probably have crafted more sets of ascended armor than I have used the legendary armor to try, but that's QOL for you.

For me, legendary armor has a HUGE QOL benefit and it is allowing me to play around with different builds in a way that I could never bring myself to do via crafting tons of different armor.

To me, the non-Raid legendary armor is entirely a QOL benefit, I think I have transmuted most of it, and I have a hard time relating to people who think that OW players should play modes they don't enjoy or be excluded from a QOL benefit.  Like all QOL benefits you do not need it, so I see no relevance for that line of reasoning.

Edited April 13, 2022 by blp.3489
Typo

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

They sell raids. lol How can that not be a thing. Hell people complain about the number of people selling raids.  So it's absolutely a thing. If you don't believe me look at the US raid lfg for a while, or search the complaints about it. More and more people sell raids because more and more people buy raids, and those people deserve legendary armor.

Wonder how many players bought 150-750 clears.

But yeah, I misunderstood that's what you were talking about. If it was up to me, that would not be a thing 🤷‍♂️  From what I see there isn't "more and more" of the players that sell the raids -seems relatively stable for a LONG time. And I'm not sure where you get that "more and more people buy them", seems like "wishful" thinking for the sake of having a point. But maybe you have some stats in that regard?

45 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Not my point. 
Normal regular typical WvW player plays WvW will eventually have enough tickets over time, no matter how much time, to get legendary armor. Dedicated WvW players will have it faster, but everyone can get it. How fast you get it depends on you playing the game you normally play in the way you normally play it.

That was already explained over and over again, including on the previous pages of this thread (~page 7, I think). In short, the obvious difference in reward acquisition in these modes is related to the way anet can balance your opponents in coop modes, but they can't really do it in competitive modes.

45 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The bulk of this game is people who play story and open world content.

Yeah -and specifically in that case what I wrote before applies:

No, no, that seems to be a common misconception on this forum for some reason. You don't have to do anything here in regards of gear or content you choose to play, you are perfectly fine playing with ascended gear. In vast majority of cases, you're even perfectly fine playing with exotics, especially (but not exclusively) if you want to limit the content you're participating in to OW.

Something you said "it's not about" and then... went right back to the same point I've responded to. Play broader content of the game or don't expect every reward, it really is pretty straightforward and does make sense. Don't want to? Great, don't need to. You can still play with exotics/ascended in any limited content you choose to play. That was exactly the point and still is.

 

tl;dr of this thread:

🔸I want that reward!

🔹Ok, then play more of the content the game offers.

🔸But I don't want to, I want to play just that part!

🔹Ok, then keep playing that part, not having that specific reward you've just said you wanted doesn't stop you in any way from playing what you want to play.

🔸...but I want that reward!

🔹Yeah, that's great. Play what the game offers then. 

🔸wow, you're telling me I'm not worthy?!

🔹No, that's not what was said here.

Rinse and repeat.

(Somewhere in the middle of that exchange, we can also add something about "wvw has it easier than raids!" -ok, it's not like you're playing raids anyways, but go play wvw then. "but I don't want to!" ...um, ok. Then don't.)

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

In the mean time, I'll spend less money than I used to.

Ah yes, there it is. But you'll spend less money than you used to... when exactly? When the legendary armor was released? Then it seems you're already spending "less than you used to" for much longer time than you didn't.

Devolving into these last ditch threats is always an eye-roll inducing experience for me. If it's somehow a meaningful amount, chances are they'd notice it without you announcing it on the forum, so that really looks like just theatrics. Please spare.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

54 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wonder how many players bought 150-750 clears.

But yeah, I misunderstood that's what you were talking about. If it was up to me, that would not be a thing 🤷‍♂️  From what I see there isn't "more and more" of the players that sell the raids -seems relatively stable for a LONG time. And I'm not sure where you get that "more and more people buy them", seems like "wishful" thinking for the sake of having a point. But maybe you have some stats in that regard?

That was already explained over and over again, including on the previous pages of this thread (~page 7, I think). In short, the obvious difference in reward acquisition in these modes is related to the way anet can balance your opponents in coop modes, but they can't really do it in competitive modes.

Yeah -and specifically in that case what I wrote before applies:

No, no, that seems to be a common misconception on this forum for some reason. You don't have to do anything here in regards of gear or content you choose to play, you are perfectly fine playing with ascended gear. In vast majority of cases, you're even perfectly fine playing with exotics, especially (but not exclusively) if you want to limit the content you're participating in to OW.

Something you said "it's not about" and then... went right back to the same point I've responded to. Play broader content of the game or don't expect every reward, it really is pretty straightforward and does make sense. Don't want to? Great, don't need to. You can still play with exotics/ascended in any limited content you choose to play. That was exactly the point and still is.

 

tl;dr of this thread:

🔸I want that reward!

🔹Ok, then play more of the content the game offers.

🔸But I don't want to, I want to play just that part!

🔹Ok, then keep playing that part, not having that specific reward you've just said you wanted doesn't stop you in any way from playing what you want to play.

🔸...but I want that reward!

🔹Yeah, that's great. Play what the game offers then. 

🔸wow, you're telling me I'm not worthy?!

🔹No, that's not what was said here.

Rinse and repeat.

(Somewhere in the middle of that exchange, we can also add something about "wvw has it easier than raids!" -ok, it's not like you're playing raids anyways, but go play wvw then. "but I don't want to!" ...um, ok. Then don't.)

This would be a fair comment if you didn't have 3.5 years where I could easily get any of the rewards and the game changed. Anet set the expectation, Anet changed the game. You can say it shouldn't have been like that from the beginning, and that would be a fair point. But changing a game we'd all be playing for 3 years to add something most people don't like and requiring it for a specific reward is simply not on.

 

You can think otherwise, but it would remain your opinion. You change a product you lose players. That's what happened anyway. That's why Anet made changes to HoT and made PoF the anti-HoT.

Your opinion and my opinion don't really matter.  People leaving the game absolutely matters.  And no one really knows how many people have either left the game, or spent less money or even how many people are just not as happy and are more likely to leave.

There's a psychology here.  Before HoT a lot of people felt this was their game. This game was made for them. HoT convinced them otherwise. All the logic in the world saying you should be happy and resign yourself to this is not relevant. If I can't get a reward without doing something I really don't like for an extended period, I'm going to want that reward more. It's basic human nature. 

And unfortunately, humans are the target audience for this game.

[Vayne.8563]

31 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ah yes, there it is. But you'll spend less money than you used to... when exactly? When the legendary armor was released? Then it seems you're already spending "less than you used to" for much longer time than you didn't.

Devolving into these last ditch threats is always an eye-roll inducing experience for me. If it's somehow a meaningful amount, chances are they'd notice it without you announcing it on the forum, so that really looks like just theatrics. Please spare.

This isn't a threat it's  a fact. When I'm happy I spend more, when I'm unhappy I spend less. I had accepted the raid part, until PvP and WvW was introduced. Then I PvPed to get it, decided I wasn't having fun after two pieces and shelved it for a while. During the entire time I was having less fun, I spent less money.  Now this conversation has come up again and I'll again spend less money because I'm annoyed. 

I'll spend more when I'm happy and less when I'm not.  The PvP thing made me spend less than legendary armor coming out in raids. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This would be a fair comment if you didn't have 3.5 years where I could easily get any of the rewards and the game changed. Anet set the expectation, Anet changed the game. You can say it shouldn't have been like that from the beginning, and that would be a fair point. But changing a game we'd all be playing for 3 years to add something most people don't like and requiring it for a specific reward is simply not on.

Nope, there were always rewards limited to some content.

Also "you shouldn't have changed the game!" removes the possibility of ading new content to any game ever. You want a stagnant game, but the stagnant mmo dies faster than you paying it less because you don't get easy rewards you wanted by replaying the same part of the game and nothing else.

 

You write "it would be a fair comment", but I don't see anything unfair there. If you think something's unfair in what I said, please point exactly what it is.

Quote

You can think otherwise, but it would remain your opinion. You change a product you lose players. That's what happened anyway. That's why Anet made changes to HoT and made PoF the anti-HoT.

But you're still here. And those players are still here. On the other hand, core managed to lose a bunch without "changing itself". What you're saying above is either dishonest or is written without looking at the reality, solely for the sake of pretending that "what you want is better" when it's not and there's no reason to claim otherwise based on what you just wrote.

(PoF in no way is "anti-HoT")

Quote

Your opinion and my opinion don't really matter.  People leaving the game absolutely matters.  And no one really knows how many people have either left the game, or spent less money or even how many people are just not as happy and are more likely to leave.

Ok. Be REALLY specific. Which part of my post is this responding to? Why are you telling me "noone knows" when you've just tried using an argument of "changing the game = losing the players"? It's like you're explaining to yourself that your just used argument is false, because you're basically playing a guessing game based on your own wishful thinking (again. And I don't see you providing any source for your previous post's "wishful thinking" -is your plan here to produce as many baseless claims as you can and then drop the request for explanation/source until maybe something will stick? Or what is this exactly trying to achieve?)

Quote

There's a psychology here.  Before HoT a lot of people felt this was their game. This game was made for them. HoT convinced them otherwise. All the logic in the world saying you should be happy and resign yourself to this is not relevant. If I can't get a reward without doing something I really don't like for an extended period, I'm going to want that reward more. It's basic human nature. 

And yet people keep playing the game. You're not speaking for anyone else, so stop making these weird basless absolute claims, just because a few players on this forum keep consistently pretending that they deserve getting any reward they want for replaying any old content they already are replaying. This is really not how any of this works.

It's not "basic human nature", from what I know, it's called something else. One way or another, because you still consistently skip it, after pretending in your previous post "it's not about that", when it clearly is: you can play whatever content you want in this game without having legendary gear. You make your own choices and you don't somehow deserve any/every reward by default. This is normal in games -this or any other.

 

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This isn't a threat it's  a fact. When I'm happy I spend more, when I'm unhappy I spend less. I had accepted the raid part, until PvP and WvW was introduced. Then I PvPed to get it, decided I wasn't having fun after two pieces and shelved it for a while. During the entire time I was having less fun, I spent less money.  Now this conversation has come up again and I'll again spend less money because I'm annoyed. 

I'll spend more when I'm happy and less when I'm not.  The PvP thing made me spend less than legendary armor coming out in raids. 

"I have accepted the raid part, but not that there are 3 paths to legenadry armor: one for PVE, one for PVP and one for WvW... now it's NOT OK!"

Right.

And then again, to reiterate what I wrote in my previous post, since you've cleared out the moment since when you're paying less: But you'll spend less money than you used to... when exactly? When the PvP legendary armor was released? Then it seems you're already spending "less than you used to" for much longer time than you didn't.

It seems the game will live exactly the same it did for the past 5(?) years. But wait! You're saying that you're happy playing the game, but when someone cries about legendary armor on the forum, you suddenly... have less fun ingame, because I guess for that brief moment it becomes an absolute necessity for you, despite you knowing perfectly well (based on your post/pre/between-legendary-thread-playtime) you actually can play whatever you want and enjoy the game without that one specific reward? Oof.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Sobx.1758