Gated Achievements

[Gibson.4036]

Achievements are a wonderful thing when they grow out of gameplay. It's fun when an achievement I never realized was a thing pops a notice that I've completed it just by exploring the game and playing. It's also pleasant to discover that I've knocked out 80% of an achievement in gameplay and I can hunt down and  knock out the other 20% intentionally as a goal.

Then there are the gated achievements. The "you can't progress this achievement unless you specifically choose to get it started". Or the multi stage achievements that get stopped because there is some sort of gate that keeps you from progress to the next tier without consciously choosing to do so.

By way of example, the Ascension achievements. You can get 8/11 on the first tier just playing PvP, not even realizing you are progressing toward a legendary back piece. If you keep playing PvP, however, none of it will count toward the later tiers unless you know to make two purchases from the vendors and throw some things at Zomorros. You can go on to do almost all the requirements to do all four tiers of the achievement, but not get any credit.

10 years in to this game, the number of achievements and rewards is vast. There are countless overlapping things in the various achievements, and you can happily do some of them dozens or even hundreds of times only to find that if you had done one simple thing you wouldn't have to go back and do them yet again for credit.

I've fell into this trap a number of times. I discover a reward that I'd like to pursue or an achievement I hadn't heard of and realize I've already done portions of it many times over, but now have to go back and do again if I want it to count for this particular thing. It's like we need to spend hours reasearching and develop a spreadsheet if we want to avoid being told, "Yeah, you've done that, but it didn't reall matter."

I know there is a liimit to how much content a studio can produce, and I know the persistent, long term nature of MMOs means they have to find ways to get us to engage with content more than once. But at some point this kind of design does make me start to feel a little more like Sisyphus than Hercules. I'm aware I'm not really presenting a solution. I wanted to share that as a long term player I do, recently, keep hitting this thing that each time diminishes my experience of the game a little.

TL;DR Achievements that don't progress unless you consciously overcome a gate are frustrating.

[Dante.1508]

I hate those gated maps that cannot be completed because the areas are behind meta areas on maps that are dead.. or behind masteries i'll never get.. Which probably also have Achievements i'll never see thinking about it..

[Vayne.8563]

As an actual achievement hunter, I prefer achievements that don't just pop up randomly since I hunt them. I mean if you're not an achievement hunter, it's nice to get them, but I like to go after them, which means watching them in the achievement panel and doing what I have to do. That makes achievement hunting more interesting to me. 

In fact, incidental achievements to me aren't really achievements at all in the classical sense of the word.  If I get an A without trying I don't see it as an achievement because I wasn't trying. If I work harder at something and get an A and put actual effort into it, I feel much better in the end. They're both A's obviously. They both represent that I do well, but some people are naturally smarter than others, or some just have better study habits. Accomplishing something I have to put effort into feels like an accomplishment at least.

 

I can understand how it would be different for people who aren't actively going after achievements, but just remember, for some of us, achievements are part of our end game.

[Einsof.1457]

GW2 does not have a subscription fee, so reasonable time gates should be fine. 

[Sobx.1758]

I fail to see how "not every achivement is being completed passively" (and multiple of them at once) is even a problem. Obviously, you are free to dislike it, but I don't see much wrong with actually having to read what you need to do in order to complete something.

Basically some of the achievements in gw2 are more of a "content guide" (or the equivalent of pushing the player in direction of some more or less relevant lore, something that normally would be done by classic rpg quests/questlines), while some are more in line with being "actual achievements". It's not much of a "gating" if all you need to "unlock it" is... read its description or interact with npc.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Fuchslein.8639]

Do you mean like, when i did a bunch of Legendary journey, and realised after the first one that i had to do the same Orr-temples for almost every Legy? And of course, that i did it on the first legy, didn't counted to the other ones, because i had not activated them.

Or how is this thread meant? I'm a bit lost.

[Khisanth.2948]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I've fell into this trap a number of times. I discover a reward that I'd like to pursue or an achievement I hadn't heard of and realize I've already done portions of it many times over, but now have to go back and do again if I want it to count for this particular thing. It's like we need to spend hours reasearching and develop a spreadsheet if we want to avoid being told, "Yeah, you've done that, but it didn't reall matter."

That is me and every gen1 precursor collection. On the other hand, since I've done it a 100 times before it should be no big deal to do it 1 more time

[Danikat.8537]

If it's collections where you get an item and then need to hold onto it for a later step or until you have enough I'd prefer them not to start until I choose to start them. I've got 3 or 4 items sitting in my bank from raids which are used for the first legendary armour collection and I don't want to delete them because I'm not sure if I'd be able to get them again, but I'm not planning to make raid armour or even finish the first collection any time soon so until then they're just taking up space. I've done other collections where I end up with most of a bag full of things which I then need to combine or use in some way to finish the collection and it would be annoying if that happened when I wasn't actually intended to complete it.

Some of them also make sense narratively, like the specialisation collections or the IG-6417 ones where you're discovering what's happening as you go along.

But other than that I think I would prefer it if they weren't locked. So I'm not in favour of unlocking all achievements for all accounts from the start, but maybe a review of why it's locked and whether it needs to be.

[Gibson.4036]

32 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Do you mean like, when i did a bunch of Legendary journey, and realised after the first one that i had to do the same Orr-temples for almost every Legy? And of course, that i did it on the first legy, didn't counted to the other ones, because i had not activated them.

Or how is this thread meant? I'm a bit lost.

Sorry, I know I get very wordy.

I don't know about the Orr temple requirement for legendaries. Do they keep you from pursuing the rest of the achievement until you get those items?

The ones that really stand out to me are the ones that have their achievements broken up into several phases. If you don't finish the first phase, it doesn't matter if you complete parts of phase two or three until you've finished phase one. So, in my example of The Ascension, there's a bunch of "win X matches as profession Y" in each tier. Until you buy a couple things from the the PVP vendor and throw some things in the mystic forge, you'll always be at tier 1, though. So even if you win hundreds of matches as profession Y, only the first five are going to matter.

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

As an actual achievement hunter, I prefer achievements that don't just pop up randomly since I hunt them. I mean if you're not an achievement hunter, it's nice to get them, but I like to go after them, which means watching them in the achievement panel and doing what I have to do. That makes achievement hunting more interesting to me. 

In fact, incidental achievements to me aren't really achievements at all in the classical sense of the word.  If I get an A without trying I don't see it as an achievement because I wasn't trying. If I work harder at something and get an A and put actual effort into it, I feel much better in the end. They're both A's obviously. They both represent that I do well, but some people are naturally smarter than others, or some just have better study habits. Accomplishing something I have to put effort into feels like an accomplishment at least.

 

I can understand how it would be different for people who aren't actively going after achievements, but just remember, for some of us, achievements are part of our end game.

Thanks, that's helpful to see another perspective.

I've very much enjoyed "achievement hunting" when it's about something interesting and unique to that achievement. I've set off on "find every widget in this zone" before, or even replayed encounters with a new goal of doing something specific that wasn't required to clear that content in earlier plays through.

The thing that gets me is when achievements have really common things most players do a bunch anyway. So a hypothetical achievement says "Defeat Tequatl 10 times", and the average long term player has done this dozens of times (or more), but that didn't count for the achievement because I haven't talked to a particular NPC in one corner of the world or had a random item drop into my inventory.

Maybe what I'm really reacting to is that gating is a replacement for imagination in some achievements. Instead of leading me to discover a new way to play, or push my skills, the achievement is just saying "Yeah, go do that thing some more".

Edited April 21, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Fuchslein.8639]

2 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Sorry, I know I get very wordy.

I don't know about the Orr temple requirement for legendaries. Do they keep you from pursuing the rest of the achievement until you get those items?

The ones that really stand out to me are the ones that have their achievements broken up into several phases. If you don't finish the first phase, it doesn't matter if you complete parts of phase two or three until you've finished phase one. So, in my example of The Ascension, there's a bunch of "win X matches as profession Y" in each tier. Until you buy a couple things from the the PVP vendor and throw some things in the mystic forge, you'll always be at tier 1, though. So even if you win hundreds of matches as profession Y, only the first five are going to matter.

Thanks, that's helpful to see another perspective.

I've very much enjoyed "achievement hunting" when it's about something interesting and unique to that achievement. I've set off on "find every widget in this zone" before, or even replayed encounters with a new goal of doing something specific that wasn't required to clear that content in earlier plays through.

The thing that gets me is when achievements have really common things most players do a bunch anyway. So a hypothetical achievement says "Defeat Tequatl 10 times", and the average long term player has done this dozens of times (or more), but that didn't count for the achievement because I haven't talked to a particular NPC in one corner of the world or had a random item drop into my inventory.

Maybe what I'm really reacting to is that gating is a replacement for imagination in some achievements. Instead of leading me to discover a new way to play, or push my skills, the achievement is just saying "Yeah, go do that thing some more".

No no, its just my english~. But now i understand. And i understand that sense of frustration. I remember when i did the legendary Armor the first time, on my old account and it was kind of frustrating when i came to the point, where i had to defeat Deimos whitout dying BUT also whitout forgetting to activate the heart. And the funny thing is, i deafeatet him before this, many times with the guild i was in, at that time. But afte i got to that point of the collection, i kittened up so much and when i killed it whitout getting swooshed of the arena, i just forgot to activate the heart....

That was a moment which was so frustrating to me, because i knew i did this dozens times before but something just wouldn't klick for me, so that it took very long for me to complete the collection. Of course, this is another fall, because it has the heart binded to it but i understand when people get to a point of a collection and have to do something, they did before. Escpecially when it is something which just annoyed the frick out of them.

The thing is, i think, this is also some way for Anet to make sure, content keeps active. When you atomaticially achieve something, for a collection, because you did it before. Or when all collections are there from moment one, its kind of a one way adventure. If i worded this correctly.

I'am mostly not a achievment hunter, i don't care because i don't care for points and most collection just give points. But i find it fun to see player with titles, or armor i don't know and eventually discover that they did get them from an achievment.
The last one of this, was the romance-titel. I didn't know this existed until i run into another player with the title and googled it. And it was nice for me personally to discover this and then do the achievment after i got to the point where it was unlocked. Heck, it as even more of a motivation for me to play the story for the amulett. Because i got burned out at this time(personal opinion) of the bad writing and plotholes and boring fights. But to know there are stuff, i can get, after i power trough this, kept me going.

[Khisanth.2948]

48 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If it's collections where you get an item and then need to hold onto it for a later step or until you have enough I'd prefer them not to start until I choose to start them. I've got 3 or 4 items sitting in my bank from raids which are used for the first legendary armour collection and I don't want to delete them because I'm not sure if I'd be able to get them again, but I'm not planning to make raid armour or even finish the first collection any time soon so until then they're just taking up space. I've done other collections where I end up with most of a bag full of things which I then need to combine or use in some way to finish the collection and it would be annoying if that happened when I wasn't actually intended to complete it.

Some of them also make sense narratively, like the specialisation collections or the IG-6417 ones where you're discovering what's happening as you go along.

But other than that I think I would prefer it if they weren't locked. So I'm not in favour of unlocking all achievements for all accounts from the start, but maybe a review of why it's locked and whether it needs to be.

Got that issue with fish and one of the turtle collection.

I am not actively pursuing getting the turtle but I might accidentally end up with it. Although I am not sure if pre-existing fish will actually count for those collections.

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

 

The thing that gets me is when achievements have really common things most players do a bunch anyway. So a hypothetical achievement says "Defeat Tequatl 10 times", and the average long term player has done this dozens of times (or more), but that didn't count for the achievement because I haven't talked to a particular NPC in one corner of the world or had a random item drop into my inventory.

Maybe what I'm really reacting to is that gating is a replacement for imagination in some achievements. Instead of leading me to discover a new way to play, or push my skills, the achievement is just saying "Yeah, go do that thing some more".

See, in a game without a quest log, achievements are often the only way we know what's available to do. Pretend you're just a random new guy. You have no idea what you're doing.  You're wandering around. You never saw a timer site. You have no idea Tequatl exists, except...there it is in your achievement panel if you bother to explore it. You don't have to go to the wiki, there it is in the game. It's how when festivals come out I know what options are available to me as well. It's almost like a quest log in that regard, it's just all the quests are optional. If you want those 50 achievement points for the festival you can figure out which achievements you need to do to get it.

Now Tequatl is a great example. You may kill Teq 10 times as an achievement but there are a bunch of achievements in there that you won't get naturally doing Teq.  You won't likely dodge the tail attack unless you're trying to. You won't necessarily defend each battery in the same fight, going once to each different battery unless that achievement is there. You won't necessarily get on a gun because there are only six of them. You won't go for that hidden treasure chest that's hard to find because you won't even know it's there. You might not be jumping waves, because face it, many people don't even know you can, but the achievement panel makes you practice it.

And practicing that is good because that kind of wave jumping is used elsewhere in this game as well. That achievement is a training tool that makes you aware of waves. When you get to try fractals later, maybe you can jump the waves in the molten boss fractal, or in the molten facility fractal, because both of those have waves you can jump. There are similar waves in other content as well.  But the achievements are teaching it to you. You still have to go out of your way to do it.

 

Some of those achievements reward mastery points as well, which gives an added bonus to get them done if you haven't trained all your masteries.  But at the end of the day if you do Teq ten times, you don't finish that achievement category, you've barely scratched the surface.

[Gibson.4036]

16 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

See, in a game without a quest log, achievements are often the only way we know what's available to do. Pretend you're just a random new guy. You have no idea what you're doing.  You're wandering around. You never saw a timer site. You have no idea Tequatl exists, except...there it is in your achievement panel if you bother to explore it. You don't have to go to the wiki, there it is in the game. It's how when festivals come out I know what options are available to me as well. It's almost like a quest log in that regard, it's just all the quests are optional. If you want those 50 achievement points for the festival you can figure out which achievements you need to do to get it.

Now Tequatl is a great example. You may kill Teq 10 times as an achievement but there are a bunch of achievements in there that you won't get naturally doing Teq.  You won't likely dodge the tail attack unless you're trying to. You won't necessarily defend each battery in the same fight, going once to each different battery unless that achievement is there. You won't necessarily get on a gun because there are only six of them. You won't go for that hidden treasure chest that's hard to find because you won't even know it's there. You might not be jumping waves, because face it, many people don't even know you can, but the achievement panel makes you practice it.

And practicing that is good because that kind of wave jumping is used elsewhere in this game as well. That achievement is a training tool that makes you aware of waves. When you get to try fractals later, maybe you can jump the waves in the molten boss fractal, or in the molten facility fractal, because both of those have waves you can jump. There are similar waves in other content as well.  But the achievements are teaching it to you. You still have to go out of your way to do it.

 

Some of those achievements reward mastery points as well, which gives an added bonus to get them done if you haven't trained all your masteries.  But at the end of the day if you do Teq ten times, you don't finish that achievement category, you've barely scratched the surface.

Totally. That's what I meant about going back and doing something I haven't done before, or that pushes my skill. "Jump the waves", "dodge the tail", "do all three breakout lanes" are all things that I can go back and try something new in something I've never done before. Those kind of achievements are valuable.