Theories why willbender and harbinger didn't get corrected

[SPESHAL.9106]

In addition to my previous post, you can notice another way the community primitively jumps to conclusions.

When you create a conquest map AND have maps with different objectives/buffs/etc, people tend to just focus on the big team fights and synergy.  However, if you don't also have professions with roamer roles, you have major problems too.  Thus, you have to look at EVERYTHING.  

Do guards synergize too much with necros on point?  If so, is that intentional because their roamer roles are less than other professions?  Are certain roamers too strong such that other professions have NO OPTIONS to either synergize on point like guard/necro or be a roamer either?  

Frankly, if you use the same primitive logic most people use for complaining, I could argue that professions are OP that run zerker amulet yet are still be bunkerish due to excessive defenses innate with the builds/traits/utilities.  You can't look at things in a vacuum though.

There are three ways to make other builds/professions more viable - 1) give them equal synergies like guard/necro on point, 2) give them equal roles as others as roamer, or 3) give them hard counter abilities to either of the prior two roles but also certain weaknesses of being countered hard too.

The problem is that some professions like guardians have access to just about any role, so it's not surprising that they are the most played.  This needs to be fixed by either allowing other professions to do the same or nerfing guards ability to spec for anything.

The other issue is that they made some professions much better at 1v1 and mobility than others.  You will ALWAYS have imbalances in the game and complaints if certain professions are MUCH better at 1v1 and mobility than others...plus can even run stuff like zerker amulets with little trade-off.  This should be fixed and will allow many more professions to be viable builds for other roles.

The third issue is that they only allow 2 man premades in normal ranked pvp, so when they create a profession that synergizes so well with one other one (like guard/necro), then it gets overplayed and OP just because they limit things to an arbitrary and illogical 2 man premade at most.

Fourth, even when you can premake a full team, you have to make sure that the map and synergies between builds don't put too much emphasis on certain team fighting roles for professions and that both roamer/team fighting roles are available and viable for professions. 

Simply changing objectives and rewards for certain things on the map can totally alter what people perceive as the OP professions.

Edited May 31, 2022 by SPESHAL.9106

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Calm down, Guard main. We were civil. Be civil yourself.

Just to be clear, it's going to be 3 months+. They've already announced the next patch date.

And my question wasn't about general "meta" specs. It was about specs so meta-dominant that 2/3 of them are optimal per team. Simply "hanging around and being good" isn't the same as "being so obviously better in every way that you will lose without 2+ on your team". Furthermore, Guardian and Necro were easily recognized to be in this state BEFORE a balance patch (albeit minor) happened, and they completely avoided any correction.

I don't recall other classes having that degree of dominance and avoiding any correction in a balance patch. I don't recall any of those specs you mentioned being played 2/3 per team, in most teams of competitive tournaments.

For a start, WB/Harb are not in the state where you MUST stack multiple of them in your team. Many high level teams are only playing 1 of them. EU MAT winners had 1 WB and 1 Harb. Neither did NA (although, USA were really just trolling). Infact I don't remember seeing *any* teams stacking multiple WBs. Having a Spectre, Vindicator/Mech, and a support of some kind, is pretty much universally preferred over stacking more WB/Harbs. The claim that the current optimal composition is 2x WB 2x Harb 1x Other is just objectively, empirically wrong.

Second, do you not remember Renegade? Herald? There were definitely times where the meta was absolutely to have 2+ of those on a team. Double Holo comps were also pretty common through 2020/21. Those didn't get adjusted instantly did they? It took months before they were addressed.

This wasn't even that long ago. It was only last year.

I'm not arguing that WB/Harb don't need some tuning down, I'm just challenging this wild claim that this moment in GW2 history is some kind of exceptional event that has never happened before, and that the devs are somehow making an exception here that doesn't apply to other classes. This isn't the first time that people have figured out the meta quickly and had to wait 3+ months for ANet to adjust it, and it won't be the last.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

For a start, WB/Harb are not in the state where you MUST stack multiple of them in your team.

No one is saying you're forced to do that. It's just best. I collected data across the last big tournament demonstrating this. See below.

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Many high level teams are only playing 1 of them. EU MAT winners had 1 WB and 1 Harb. Neither did NA (although, USA were really just trolling). Infact I don't remember seeing *any* teams stacking multiple WBs. Having a Spectre, Vindicator/Mech, and a support of some kind, is pretty much universally preferred over stacking more WB/Harbs.

It's Guardian and Necro as classes being stacked. Necro tends to be Harb. Guardian tends to be WB/Core. Common comps include 2x Harb, 1x WB, 1x Core Guard / Tempest, 1x Spectre/Vindi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-Gy_UaFWY

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/115385-teapot-tournament-stats/

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The claim that the current optimal composition is 2x WB 2x Harb 1x Support is just objectively, empirically wrong.

I only meant that having ~3/5 of your team being Guard and Necro is optimal. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Second, do you not remember Renegade? Herald? There were definitely times where the meta was absolutely to have 2+ of those on a team. Double Holo comps were also pretty common through 2020/21. Those didn't get adjusted instantly did they? It took months before they were addressed.

Looking through older tournament videos shows much more diversity overall. Never actually saw a double Holo comp in these, despite it being "pretty common", but might have missed it. Definitely some double, even triple Rev meme teams at points, but I mentioned that in my first post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eIrICTryBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zik8_U87a6M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvcArb7RLNM

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I'm not arguing that WB/Harb don't need some tuning down

Ok, we're in agreement? Not sure where you got this impression that everyone wants Guardian/Necro made unplayable. They're clearly the strongest classes right now, they've played a key role in almost every meta, and they somehow avoided nerfs. Everyone's tired of the privilege they seem to have. You should be able to empathize with that.

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I'm just challenging this wild claim that this moment in GW2 history is some kind of exceptional event that has never happened before

I didn't say that. I wanted to remember similar times, if any existed, and asked a question. Your evidence so far is anecdotal and weak.

Edited May 31, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Sahne.6950]

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

For a start, WB/Harb are not in the state where you MUST stack multiple of them in your team. Many high level teams are only playing 1 of them. EU MAT winners had 1 WB and 1 Harb. Neither did NA (although, USA were really just trolling). Infact I don't remember seeing *any* teams stacking multiple WBs. Having a Spectre, Vindicator/Mech, and a support of some kind, is pretty much universally preferred over stacking more WB/Harbs. The claim that the current optimal composition is 2x WB 2x Harb 1x Other is just objectively, empirically wrong.

Second, do you not remember Renegade? Herald? There were definitely times where the meta was absolutely to have 2+ of those on a team. Double Holo comps were also pretty common through 2020/21. Those didn't get adjusted instantly did they? It took months before they were addressed.

This wasn't even that long ago. It was only last year.

I'm not arguing that WB/Harb don't need some tuning down, I'm just challenging this wild claim that this moment in GW2 history is some kind of exceptional event that has never happened before, and that the devs are somehow making an exception here that doesn't apply to other classes. This isn't the first time that people have figured out the meta quickly and had to wait 3+ months for ANet to adjust it, and it won't be the last.

i think you guys are miss communicating. You are both right with what you are saying. I think  bethekeys mainpoint was, that he believes that there was never a time, where professions were clearly overperforming, yet they are not even mentioned in the patchnotes, while builds that were in desperate need of a buff... were nerfed...

And i also think that is true.In the past, they were patching very infrequently, leaving things busted for long times... longer than WB and Harb right now. But never ever ever, have they completly ignored the elephant in the room. Everyone was whining about Willbender and people were making bets what and how much is going to be nerfed on Willbender.......  AAAAND THEY NERFED CORE ENGIE INSTEAD.... like.. what?

Edited May 31, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Vancho.8750]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i think you guys are miss communicating. You are both right with what you are saying. I think  bethekeys mainpoint was, that he believes that there was never a time, where professions were clearly overperforming, yet they are not even mentioned in the patchnotes, while builds that were in desperate need of a buff... were nerfed...

And i also think that is true.In the past, they were patching very infrequently, leaving things busted for long times... longer than WB and Harb right now. But never ever ever, have they completly ignored the elephant in the room. Everyone was whining about Willbender and people were making bets what and how much is going to be nerfed on Willbender.......  AAAAND THEY NERFED CORE ENGIE INSTEAD.... like.. what?

The engi thing reminds me of the Druid staff nerf when they removed the dodge even though no one was playing Druid and SlB was the kitten. Now the skill can get you killed cause it is janky and stucks you in animation if hits a bump, which was not that big of deal when it had a dodge. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Vancho.8750