Mesmer Scepter; underpowered or niche-use only, needs improving

[Kazriyal.8375]

Are there any PvE dps builds for mesmer using a scepter that can get 25k+ dps? 30k?

Specifically for raids, t4/cm fractals and cm strikes (openworld doesn't really require those numbers, and PvP/WvW has a different focus). I am looking for something that has general use and isn't niche-only for that one boss that is designed to be wrecked by confusion procs.

 

I have tried many different builds, power/condi/hybrid using all 3 elite specs and their unique mechanics as well as just core traitlines and cannot get damage that competes with even a staff support build (dual-staff alacMirage), let alone pure dps builds that use other weapons.

Is scepter just the known trash wep where the universal answer to "How do I get good damage with scepter?" is "Just Don't"?

 

Is the issue with it just numbers requiring a boost, or is there something integral to how it works that blocks it from getting decent damage? How would you go about making scepter a competitive choice and not the poster child for the trash bin?

 

P.s. Does ArenaNet read threads like these or is it just an echo chamber and nothing from here will ever be implemented ingame?

[rune.9572]

16 hours ago, Kazriyal.8375 said:

P.s. Does ArenaNet read threads like these or is it just an echo chamber and nothing from here will ever be implemented ingame?

The latter

[Dante.1508]

In open world for me scepter is a fail due to the block skill being well useless.. the chance it ever blocks, compared to it being a dead skill spot.. for me isn't good.

[Jtoon.6907]

I use Scepter mainly in WVW for my Chrono. 

[JunkJunk.8971]

Love it in pvp.   With my mirage.  Mid gold ranked for what it is worth 

[Ombras.2853]

In WvW and PvP is a very respectable choice. Not everything should be top tier for PvE specifically. Even in PvE, there are builds (like Chrono Tank) which profit from playing Scepter cuz of clone generation.

[draxynnic.3719]

48 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

In WvW and PvP is a very respectable choice. Not everything should be top tier for PvE specifically. Even in PvE, there are builds (like Chrono Tank) which profit from playing Scepter cuz of clone generation.

The flipside, though, is that now that skills are split, just because scepter does well in competitive modes (and it does!) doesn't mean that it can't also be buffed to be a reasonable choice in PvE as well. Scepter mirage really should be viable in instances where you don't need cleave, don't need the support you can offer through staff, and can't afford to stay in melee with axe.

[Jables.4659]

Scepter could use a baseline attack speed buff of 20% so that it's usable without Malicious Sorcery.  The trait could then have the attack speed bonus replaced with +90 power and +90 condition damage.  Bare in mind that this wouldn't be a direct buff since the trait currently increases attack speed across the board while wielding a scepter.  It applies to your heal, utilities, elite, and Virtuoso shatters.  I would also buff the power damage on Scepter auto and Confusing Images a bit.  

[Puck.3697]

tbh ur never going to have every weapon balanced in every enviroment

Sceptre has its uses, its a strong SPVP weapon.

 

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The flipside, though, is that now that skills are split, just because scepter does well in competitive modes (and it does!) doesn't mean that it can't also be buffed to be a reasonable choice in PvE as well. Scepter mirage really should be viable in instances where you don't need cleave, don't need the support you can offer through staff, and can't afford to stay in melee with axe.

While this would be a rly good idea.. every weapon having its seperate kit for different modes.

this would also make traits 3x harder to balance catering to all 3 set ups.. while making every new Elite introducing 3 x the weapons abilities additional to already whats built.. I'd be unsuprised if this would just cost too much in man hours etc etc to realistically work.. let alone balance.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[semak.7481]

8 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh ur never going to have every weapon balanced in every enviroment

Sceptre has its uses, its a strong SPVP weapon.

Its strong? Where? Buffed it by 46%, nerfed by 50%, ended up with 74%-76% of its original power, on competitive split another ~35-40% (didnt count cba) remvoed, you dont do damage even on zerk with sc3 with its terrible long cast time. Its so clunky on top, just no

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Its strong? Where? Buffed it by 46%, nerfed by 50%, ended up with 74%-76% of its original power, on competitive split another ~35-40% (didnt count cba) remvoed, you dont do damage even on zerk with sc3 with its terrible long cast time. Its so clunky on top, just no

both Side node mirage and Condi Virtuoso both use this weapon.

why are you using Zerker stats with a Condi weapon?. this weapons Entire power is based on Applying torment and confusion its built as a Conditional Damage weapon and the reason ur seeing 0 damage from it is because zerker is Power based stats.

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh ur never going to have every weapon balanced in every enviroment

Sceptre has its uses, its a strong SPVP weapon.

 

While this would be a rly good idea.. every weapon having its seperate kit for different modes.

this would also make traits 3x harder to balance catering to all 3 set ups.. while making every new Elite introducing 3 x the weapons abilities additional to already whats built.. I'd be unsuprised if this would just cost too much in man hours etc etc to realistically work.. let alone balance.

Not really. Just increase the damage and/or condition duration in PvE until it's on par with other weapons. The values are already split so it's not going to impact performance in competitive modes.

There's no reason to have 'it's good in competitive so it doesn't matter if it's bad in PvE' arguments when the skills are split anyway.

Edited May 25, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Puck.3697]

16 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not really. Just increase the damage and/or condition duration in PvE until it's on par with other weapons. The values are already split so it's not going to impact performance in competitive modes.

There's no reason to have 'it's good in competitive so it doesn't matter if it's bad in PvE' arguments when the skills are split anyway.

 

to remove the argument of "its bad in PvE" Cause its Not.

Condi Quickness Chronomancer Uses Sceptar.

Condi Chronomancer also Uses Sceptar.

Tank Chronomancer uses Sceptar.

Mesmer currently has More builds in raids / Strikes which use Sceptar then any other weapon in the game Lmfao, Sceptar has NEVER been bad in PvE Lmfao. your Poposal to buff Sceptar isnt "making sceptar good". its Simply making Sceptar better then every other weapon in the game in mesmers aresnal realistically.

Its already good. it has its Niche in PvE Content. its run in a variety of builds and set ups using it.

Sceptars clone ability is a litteral block, Why are you trying to state. a Weapon with Sustain should Equal a Glass cannon weapon, realistically thats Overpowered. and before you just say "oh well just remove the block then?" No. because u quite Litterally Delete More builds then create pushing for this, you cant Just ask for every god kitten condi weapon to be a glass cannon to Appease PvE Because it doesnt fill the roles they want it to.

Chronomancer makes ALOT of use in Sceptar throughout all its condi builds. its only because Mirage uses Axe and Virtuoso Scales from bleed Damage that it isnt featured among them. and No Sceptar and Axe shouldnt be equal in DPS. Axe is Quite Litterally a Melee Weapon, with no blocks. no range and implying Sceptar should be better then Axe. your asking for Axe to become redundent which is the exact same problem reversed.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[semak.7481]

6 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

both Side node mirage and Condi Virtuoso both use this weapon.

First time I hear about these...actually who forbids you to play whatever garbage you made up there 🤷‍♂️

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Condi mirage perhaps condi Virtuoso you only really need to dodge F2 and your damage is completely gone. 

[viquing.8254]

Talking about PvP.

The day they upped scepter direct damage to be on par with nec axe (can also compare with other classes weapon damage but it's th most representative.)

There were plethora of whine. Which ended with nerf.

It's was pretty biased as with same gear most classes similar weapon skill does more damage.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

First time I hear about these...actually who forbids you to play whatever garbage you made up there 🤷‍♂️

 

They are quite literally the strongest builds avaliable to mesmer as of current lmfao. 

Maybe check out a theory craft or build site out before making silly comments. You would likely reliese scepter is utilised in both pve and pvp if you did. 

[semak.7481]

37 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

They are quite literally the strongest builds avaliable to mesmer as of current lmfao. 

Maybe check out a theory craft or build site out before making silly comments. You would likely reliese scepter is utilised in both pve and pvp if you did. 

No, the best thing that I could do is to not interact a forum activist thinking their opinion evolved into a fact after they spent half of their life on the forum.

If you made up in your head that such irrelevant stuff is the "the best", I cant help you, no one can.

Edited May 25, 2022 by semak.7481

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

No, the best thing that I could do is to not interact a forum activist thinking their opinion evolved into a fact after they spent half of their life on the forum.

If you made up in your head that such irrelevant stuff is the "the best", I cant help you, no one can.

Lol. Dude. 

Hardstuck.gg Mesmer builds. 

Snowcrows.com mesmer builds. 

Welcome to pvp discord. 

All list these same builds. Fefe even used it in a AT just after the staff changes back at the end of PoF. 

No one needs to help me. I'm capable of listening to theory crafters and I'm afraid they know alot more then you do. And far better at the game then you lol. 

P.s to be a opinion it'd have to be my build. I copy the builds from theorycraft I don't make my own builds nor do I try to use different weapons. 

I copy and paste lol

The fact yoy won't even look into builds theorycrafted  by sites run by the best players in the game. Proves enough your the one with opinions here. 

Imagine believing you know the game better then snowcrows. IMAGINE lol.

It's so funny u call me a forum activist while being one entirely yourself lol. You literally set yourself up to be shown to be a troll the moment you started talking about scepter and zerker stats. 

Scepter is used in CONDI builds, and virtuoso builds. 

P.s if yoy want to know why:

Virtuoso have a traits which stacks  blades rapidly via blocking or dodging attacks. Stacking blocks allows virtuoso to spam its bladesongs. Which is alot of the reason scepter synergies with it so well in a spvp environment. 

It's used by tank chrono because once again when your jobs to take hits, u stack blocks. 

And it's used on condi quickness builds because condi is mesmers strongest quickness builds and I'd honestly like to know what chrono can access that does more condi in main hand then scepter. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

to remove the argument of "its bad in PvE" Cause its Not.

Condi Quickness Chronomancer Uses Sceptar.

Condi Chronomancer also Uses Sceptar.

Tank Chronomancer uses Sceptar.

Mesmer currently has More builds in raids / Strikes which use Sceptar then any other weapon in the game Lmfao, Sceptar has NEVER been bad in PvE Lmfao. your Poposal to buff Sceptar isnt "making sceptar good". its Simply making Sceptar better then every other weapon in the game in mesmers aresnal realistically.

Its already good. it has its Niche in PvE Content. its run in a variety of builds and set ups using it.

Sceptars clone ability is a litteral block, Why are you trying to state. a Weapon with Sustain should Equal a Glass cannon weapon, realistically thats Overpowered. and before you just say "oh well just remove the block then?" No. because u quite Litterally Delete More builds then create pushing for this, you cant Just ask for every god kitten condi weapon to be a glass cannon to Appease PvE Because it doesnt fill the roles they want it to.

Chronomancer makes ALOT of use in Sceptar throughout all its condi builds. its only because Mirage uses Axe and Virtuoso Scales from bleed Damage that it isnt featured among them. and No Sceptar and Axe shouldnt be equal in DPS. Axe is Quite Litterally a Melee Weapon, with no blocks. no range and implying Sceptar should be better then Axe. your asking for Axe to become redundent which is the exact same problem reversed.

If you think it IS good in PvE, then maybe lead with that rather than basing your arguments on 'it's good in PvP' (accurate last time I used it, but irrelevant when discussing PvE balance) and 'it's too complicated to try to balance it in both PvE and PvP' (patently false, since skill splits mean that tweaks in one mode don't have to affect the other). Your arguments up to now appeared as if you were conceding that scepter was bad in PvE, but you didn't care because it was good in PvE and "tbh ur never going to have every weapon balanced for every environment".

That's the attitude I was arguing against.

That said:

Condi chrono nowadays is a pretty niche build. It's pretty much only used for quickness support against confusion bosses from what I can see. So hardly a glowing recommendation.

When it comes to mirage, I think it is reasonable to suggest that if you don't care about providing boon support, scepter should probably be a better single-target (mostly) ranged condi weapon than staff. Nobody suggested it should outdamage axe, that's just you strawmanning.

Virtuoso is obviously based on blade attacks and bleeding and scepter doesn't synergise with that (and staff and scepter both lose out on clone damage). Low on the relative priority list, but as the sword leap was modified for virtuoso, I think it would be good for staff and scepter to be modified to be a bit more useful when used by a virtuoso. Maybe only in PvE but, hey, skills are split, they can do that.

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you think it IS good in PvE, then maybe lead with that rather than basing your arguments on 'it's good in PvP' (accurate last time I used it, but irrelevant when discussing PvE balance) and 'it's too complicated to try to balance it in both PvE and PvP' (patently false, since skill splits mean that tweaks in one mode don't have to affect the other). Your arguments up to now appeared as if you were conceding that scepter was bad in PvE, but you didn't care because it was good in PvE and "tbh ur never going to have every weapon balanced for every environment".

That's the attitude I was arguing against.

That said:

Condi chrono nowadays is a pretty niche build. It's pretty much only used for quickness support against confusion bosses from what I can see. So hardly a glowing recommendation.

When it comes to mirage, I think it is reasonable to suggest that if you don't care about providing boon support, scepter should probably be a better single-target (mostly) ranged condi weapon than staff. Nobody suggested it should outdamage axe, that's just you strawmanning.

Virtuoso is obviously based on blade attacks and bleeding and scepter doesn't synergise with that (and staff and scepter both lose out on clone damage). Low on the relative priority list, but as the sword leap was modified for virtuoso, I think it would be good for staff and scepter to be modified to be a bit more useful when used by a virtuoso. Maybe only in PvE but, hey, skills are split, they can do that.

Tbh granted, yes condi chrono is a rather niche build. However does truly shine when confusion and torment are In its niches. 

But I'd make the argument is this not what options are for? 

This idea where these builds and weapons have their own areas they shine in?. If you make scepter shine in every area, you are asking for effectively another weapon to become useless in trade. 

It's important that scepter is good at things and bad at other things and it has places you would use and where it shouldn't be used. 

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-mirage

The condi mirage builds do not use staff. 

And here's where the problem is, even if scepter was better then staff it would not be good enough.

You aren't fixing a situation here and the only way it's getting thrown into the ring is if it was equalised or synergised with axe in some way. 

There's 0 point discussing staff in pve dps builds. Because it simply doesn't exist in those builds. It's a irrelevant weapon to the current meta builds. 

Staff is only used in builds which it's providing might. As staff dodge attack spams alacrity and might. 

It's been a long time now since the nerfs pushed staff out of the dps builds regarding mirage. 

Tweaks and fixs have never fixed anything in gw2 because its "split skills" don't go deep enough to fix the issue. Messing with stacks of condi and damage do very little in. The large picture. 

If you buffed scepter it will either fall short and still not be used or overtake axe in the mirage build and replace axe. It will never be equal they will never get it right. 

And making it better then staff is again pointless. 

because it can't be put into the builds which staff is used in and staff has nothing to do with the pve mirage dps builds. 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[attractiveman.7164]

For shatter builds scepter is great, even in my power Chrono build it's good for the block, and the 3 skill does about 11k. But it's useful for clone generation. I typically use sword to do my dps rotation and swap to scepter to regenerate clones and swap back. Scepter to me has always been more of a utility weapon than a dps

Edited May 26, 2022 by attractiveman.7164

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh granted, yes condi chrono is a rather niche build. However does truly shine when confusion and torment are In its niches. 

But I'd make the argument is this not what options are for? 

This idea where these builds and weapons have their own areas they shine in?. If you make scepter shine in every area, you are asking for effectively another weapon to become useless in trade. 

It's important that scepter is good at things and bad at other things and it has places you would use and where it shouldn't be used. 

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-mirage

The condi mirage builds do not use staff. 

And here's where the problem is, even if scepter was better then staff it would not be good enough.

You aren't fixing a situation here and the only way it's getting thrown into the ring is if it was equalised or synergised with axe in some way. 

There's 0 point discussing staff in pve dps builds. Because it simply doesn't exist in those builds. It's a irrelevant weapon to the current meta builds. 

Staff is only used in builds which it's providing might. As staff dodge attack spams alacrity and might. 

It's been a long time now since the nerfs pushed staff out of the dps builds regarding mirage. 

Tweaks and fixs have never fixed anything in gw2 because its "split skills" don't go deep enough to fix the issue. Messing with stacks of condi and damage do very little in. The large picture. 

If you buffed scepter it will either fall short and still not be used or overtake axe in the mirage build and replace axe. It will never be equal they will never get it right. 

And making it better then staff is again pointless. 

because it can't be put into the builds which staff is used in and staff has nothing to do with the pve mirage dps builds. 

 

Look a bit deeper. What do condi mirages do when they can't stay in melee all the time? They go to staxe. Snowcrows puts staxe under alacmirage because it provides about 50% alacrity uptime, but it's also only ~3K DPS less than condi mirage and has a basically identical build apart from replacing torch with staff. Now, if you could bench an axe/torch and sceptre/pistol mirage doing 38-39K DPS (so less than axe/axe mirage, but more than staxe), then maybe we could agree that sceptre is in a decent place.

Condo chrono is only recommended for tanking these days from what I can see, so this isn't saying it's good, it's saying that it has a block and is less bad DPS than sword against condi bosses. And it's only recommended for something like four bosses. That's super niche.

I think it's reasonable to ask for sceptre to be the best ranged single-target condition weapon for non-virtuosos (when combined with a suitable offhand, of course). That's not pushing anything out because other weapons have other specialities: axe is melee, and staff is both more support-oriented (especially on mirage) and more oriented towards fighting multiple targets (again, especially on mirage).

Edited May 26, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Look a bit deeper. What do condi mirages do when they can't stay in melee all the time? They go to staxe. Snowcrows puts staxe under alacmirage because it provides about 50% alacrity uptime, but it's also only ~3K DPS less than condi mirage and has a basically identical build apart from replacing torch with staff. Now, if you could bench an axe/torch and sceptre/pistol mirage doing 38-39K DPS (so less than axe/axe mirage, but more than staxe), then maybe we could agree that sceptre is in a decent place.

Condo chrono is only recommended for tanking these days from what I can see, so this isn't saying it's good, it's saying that it has a block and is less bad DPS than sword against condi bosses. And it's only recommended for something like four bosses. That's super niche.

I think it's reasonable to ask for sceptre to be the best ranged single-target condition weapon for non-virtuosos (when combined with a suitable offhand, of course). That's not pushing anything out because other weapons have other specialities: axe is melee, and staff is both more support-oriented (especially on mirage) and more oriented towards fighting multiple targets (again, especially on mirage).

Well and quickness builds ofcourse, problem is chrono quickness tends to be rather outdated these days.

But granted yes niche it is. 

I guess you have more faith In anets balancing then I if yoy think this would be the outcome, anet have a tendency to over buff or make changes which don't achieve anything. 

I.E willbender. It was in a bad place, but that was a significant over buff by a absolute mile pvp wise. 

But sure. If we are just looking to shorten gaps yeah, alot of weapons in gw2 could use the same buffs. 

The sad news is I suspect this to happen but in the opposite way. 

I think June 28th balance patch is going to nerf staff. And once staff is nerfed, scepter will come into play.. that's my prediction to what will happen and I doubt I'm alone thinking it's going to happen. 

They intentionally nerfed alot of solo builds In EoD yet allowed this monster to remain. And staff mirage is a monster solo wise in pve also they tore out RR renegade massively yet allowed the competing build mirage held to remain again. 

So while I think scepter will become better then staff, I'm expecting staff to get nerfed to make it true. My only copium is when they do this they're pve only nerfs as this would tear down almost all of mesmers current pvp builds. 

But yeah. At the sake of a ranged options upping the condi abit and shortening the length of Sc3 and buffing it's dodge ambush skills  would prolly do the job pretty well. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Daddy.8125