GW2 should feel like its own world and not mirror reality

[The Greyhawk.9107]

40 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Xunlai's stance on the borders opening was also partly "We can spread jade-tech further and help people over there."

They are certainly much more open about their tech and teaching then the Arcane Council who hoard tech and refuse to admit anybody else outside of Rata Sum controlled areas is smart enough to be able to operate it.

Cant say I trust their motivations to be that altruistic irrespective of what they claimed in order to get access to more markets so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Rogue.8235]

A closed society can never stay closed.  Some jerk on a boat is bound to show up on shore and stir things up.

The only way to remain isolationist forever is to destroy anything and everything approaching your sovereignty, no questions asked.  That would be the shortest expansion ever.  

"Alright we're going to Cantha.  Okay almost there!  We're at-" *signal lost*

 

Anyways, there are some universal concepts of any society, easily demonstrated by all of human history.  Despite such divergent cultures, some things are the same.  Technology and international affairs being a couple of them.  You're engaging in the Barnum Effect, where you take general, vague things and apply it to something specific as if that vague thing is directly addressing it.  This is how fortune telling and psychics work.

 

As for accents, meh.  Only so much one can do with that.  The worst course of action is to fake a Canthan accent and have it be seriously offensive.  The alternative is to actually derive a brand new, complete language to make an accent.  This is because accents are the product of the phonemes present in a given language.  However, making up a completely new language is a massive undertaking, beyond the scope of a video game.

 

Also, technology has been present in the Tyrian story since the beginning.  The difference is that Cantha uses jade, a resource that is right there in their backyard.  This makes sense to, you know, use the stuff around you.  By the way, the Thaumanova Reactor in metric province is technologically far beyond anything we have in the real world.  Technology is nothing new in GW2.

 

Governing bodies and bureaucracies are also largely similar across civilizations.  There are major differences in specific policies, but the overall organization is the same.  As far as politics in the game, Divinity's Reach is nothing but politics.  The congregation to band together to take down Mordremoth was purely political.  Politics isn't anything new.

 

However:

On 6/16/2022 at 12:11 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

How did outsiders mess up everything? 

Did I miss something? 

For me, the story was basically this:

We: Let me through. Need to save the world. 

Cantha: Politics. 

We: Guys. We don't have the time for that. 

Cantha: POLITICS! 

We: Turn around. The world is literally ending. 

Cantha:  P O L I T I C S¡!!!!!!!!!!! 

We: OK. Let just kick the door in and save some idiots! 

 

This is a brilliant masterpiece.

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Rogue.8235

[Labjax.2465]

On 6/16/2022 at 8:23 AM, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Yeah, I never understood how that's now an issue. The Humans, Norns, Charr, & Asurans has always had an American accent/dialect (despite the Asurans having their own slang), just in different pitches. With the only outliner being Sylvari sounding like a posh Brit. Even then, there are snippets of a Charr sounding human in the Atherblades dungeon.

Incidentally, I wonder what motivated them to do British for Sylvari. Seems kind of random and silly to me, and IIRC, it's the only non-US way of speaking they use in the game.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Cant say I trust their motivations to be that altruistic irrespective of what they claimed in order to get access to more markets so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I won't say Xunlai is perfect or nice, but they actually bother to have a medical division and try to make products that will sell to people, common or not. There is a Tengu who comments on being hired and trained by the Xunlai corp as well.

Compare to the Asura under the Arcane Council, who view all others are too stupid to use tech and hardly share, even in the past going so far as sending agents to blow up Asura Tech held by other races (CM dungeon path) so it couldn't be studied or "misused"

[The Greyhawk.9107]

33 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

As for accents, meh.  Only so much one can do with that.  The worst course of action is to fake a Canthan accent and have it be seriously offensive.  The alternative is to actually derive a brand new, complete language to make an accent.  This is because accents are the product of the phonemes present in a given language.  However, making up a completely new language is a massive undertaking, beyond the scope of a video game.

Personally it's less about the accents (though it still is in part) and more about the phrasing, the lingo.  Far too much of the dialog in not just EoD, though it does have it the worst imo, but much of the last several releases sounds too much like middle-class urban American speech, as if I'm watching a TV show in a modern setting.  It foesnt just break immersion it's outright off-putting.  The majority of the accents of the voice overs in GW1 were more or less also American but the dialog, the phrasing, was not.  It never felt "modern" and it usually didn't break the immersion for me.  Much of the voicing in the beginning of GW2 also didn't take me out of the world as much as it does nowadays, though not quite as well as GW1.

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Personally it's less about the accents (though it still is in part) and more about the phrasing, the lingo.  Far too much of the dialog in not just EoD, though it does have it the worst imo, but much of the last several releases sounds too much like middle-class urban American speech, as if I'm watching a TV show in a modern setting.  It foesnt just break immersion it's outright off-putting.  The majority of the accents of the voice overs in GW1 were more or less also American but the dialog, the phrasing, was not.  It never felt "modern" and it usually didn't break the immersion for me.  Much of the voicing in the beginning of GW2 also didn't take me out of the world as much as it does nowadays, though not quite as well as GW1.

I don't remember EoD being worse in this way, but I do agree that generally speaking, phrasing is more important than accents for making a fictional world feel like its own.

I am remembering now one example that always stands out to me is in Dragonstorm when Taimi says "wonder where he gets that from... in the mean time, fire alarm!"

Spoiler

(referring to Braham-Primordus showing up)

I guess we can figure Asuran technology is advanced enough they'd have fire alarms of a kind, but would they call them that and use the phrase in the same way we might in our world, it's kind of a stretch and just takes me out of the moment. Even if it's not technically a phrase that couldn't exist for them, if the goal is immersion, you want to remind the player of the fictional context they're in, not the real one outside. So callbacks to fictional elements used as phrases makes more sense for that goal. I don't think they really have that goal much though.

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Incidentally, I wonder what motivated them to do British for Sylvari.

My guess is, they wanted to go for the high fantasy elf trope but with a minor twist.

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Personally it's less about the accents (though it still is in part) and more about the phrasing, the lingo.  Far too much of the dialog in not just EoD, though it does have it the worst imo, but much of the last several releases sounds too much like middle-class urban American speech, as if I'm watching a TV show in a modern setting.  It foesnt just break immersion it's outright off-putting.  The majority of the accents of the voice overs in GW1 were more or less also American but the dialog, the phrasing, was not.  It never felt "modern" and it usually didn't break the immersion for me.  Much of the voicing in the beginning of GW2 also didn't take me out of the world as much as it does nowadays, though not quite as well as GW1.

Yep I can understand this.  I admit that there are some jarring dialogue bits for me, as well.  I think one of my favorite examples of this concept is in the show Firefly.  There were some slang terms, like "Shiny" instead of "cool" that added to the setting.  

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Incidentally, I wonder what motivated them to do British for Sylvari. Seems kind of random and silly to me, and IIRC, it's the only non-US way of speaking they use in the game.

Their names come from Gaelic and Celtic sources, and they have Arthurian and Fae Court imagery in their lore. Voice casting seems to have run with that.

Edit: see post below for more accurate information

Edited June 17, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[The Greyhawk.9107]

36 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Their names come from Gaelic and Celtic sources, and they have Arthurian and Fae Court imagery in their lore. Voice casting seems to have run with that.

Sorry to be the "Acktually" guy, but Gaelic is a subset of Celtic, not something separate. And the Sylvari mostly use Welsh names and words which is from Brythonic Celtic subset rather than the Gaelic Celtic.

Edited June 17, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Gibson.4036]

31 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Sorry to be the "Acktually" guy, but Gaelic is a subset of Celtic, not something separate. And the Sylvari mostly use Welsh names and words which is from Brythonic Celtic subset rather than the Gaelic Celtic.

No need to apologize for being informed! Thanks for the correction

[Tazer.2157]

On 6/17/2022 at 4:36 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

Have you not played IBS yet? Without getting into spoilery details, that's kinda the whole premise of it, is they see it as the commander having a dragon of their own and start warmongering and thinking they can get a dragon of their own in Jormag. They're also wrong though, the commander doesn't "control" the strongest dragon, they are its champion and have a bond with it of sorts.

I have played IBS and I am disappointed with how it turned out. The game introduces amazing story arcs which are then ultimately reduced into a predictable "Friendship and the good guys win at the end" plot.

Remember Warcraft 3, we all played when we were teens? As Arthas, we literally had to massacre a village to prevent people turning into Zombies. Then we saw how  Arthas got corrupted by the desire to protect. There is nuance in the story, we see that the other characters disagree with Arthas, but yet in a way we understand  his actions. That is what I want from GW2. As a commander, we should have seen the logic in Bangar's motives.  But in the end, it turns out that Bangar was just controlled by Jormag and was never really smart or capable enough to be the Charr leader.  Its the same with Minister Li, he's a bigot and must be put down, can't have that narrative in a game! 

[Rogue.8235]

36 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Remember Warcraft 3, we all played when we were teens? As Arthas, we literally had to massacre a village to prevent people turning into Zombies. Then we saw how  Arthas got corrupted by the desire to protect. There is nuance in the story, we see that the other characters disagree with Arthas, but yet in a way we understand  his actions. That is what I want from GW2. As a commander, we should have seen the logic in Bangar's motives.  But in the end, it turns out that Bangar was just controlled by Jormag and was never really smart or capable enough to be the Charr leader.  Its the same with Minister Li, he's a bigot and must be put down, can't have that narrative in a game! 

You can have such nuance in a game.  This isn't the game for that.   You don't watch Deadpool for the deep social commentary of the nuance of moral relativism.  You watch it because Deadpool is ridiculous.  

GW2 has never been a story of moral nuance.  It's a plucky story.  I mean extremely plucky.  It's light-hearted and very simple.  Just like asking for Schindler's List to be more of a romantic comedy, asking for nuanced complexity in GW2 isn't very realistic.  That's not the genre of the game.

 

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Tazer.2157 said:

I have played IBS and I am disappointed with how it turned out. The game introduces amazing story arcs which are then ultimately reduced into a predictable "Friendship and the good guys win at the end" plot.

Remember Warcraft 3, we all played when we were teens? As Arthas, we literally had to massacre a village to prevent people turning into Zombies. Then we saw how  Arthas got corrupted by the desire to protect. There is nuance in the story, we see that the other characters disagree with Arthas, but yet in a way we understand  his actions. That is what I want from GW2. As a commander, we should have seen the logic in Bangar's motives.  But in the end, it turns out that Bangar was just controlled by Jormag and was never really smart or capable enough to be the Charr leader.  Its the same with Minister Li, he's a bigot and must be put down, can't have that narrative in a game! 

I'm confused by your interpretation of the story. I thought it was pretty clear Bangar was acting of his own volition in the beginning, it's just he was in way over his head thinking he could control an elder dragon and predictably (poetically?) ended up controlled by it in the end. And why would the commander understand the logic of Bangar's motives? The commander knows that they don't actually control an elder dragon like Bangar thinks and that from all their experience with elder dragons, they are extremely deadly and some of them (Mordremoth) are very tricky too, with Aurene being the one exception they are aware of because of her upbringing and evolution as a dragon.

Also, I never played Warcraft 3, so have no idea what example you're referring to. But based on how you're describing it, I'd say GW2 does have stuff like that. EoD for example could have just been a story where you put down the last elder dragon, who is the most cunning and evil of all, and instead it's much more complicated than that. Heck, as early as Path of Fire, they turned "we're hunting elder dragons" into "wait, maybe it's a bit more complicated." And going back even further, consider the ending to Heart of Thorns:

Spoiler

you have to kill Trahearne to completely end Mordremoth.

Isn't that like your tough situations that you're wanting?

Or in IBS:

Spoiler

Ryland's own parents have to kill him because he's so far gone.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm confused by your interpretation of the story. I thought it was pretty clear Bangar was acting of his own volition in the beginning, it's just he was in way over his head thinking he could control an elder dragon and predictably (poetically?) ended up controlled by it in the end. And why would the commander understand the logic of Bangar's motives? The commander knows that they don't actually control an elder dragon like Bangar thinks and that from all their experience with elder dragons, they are extremely deadly and some of them (Mordremoth) are very tricky too, with Aurene being the one exception they are aware of because of her upbringing and evolution as a dragon.

 

I took it as Bangar having bad intel (thinking Commander controlled Aurene) or purposefully twisting the intel to rile up the "YEAH WAR" crowd into fearing they would be the next target.

There are claw marks/footprints all over the snowy part of the fort's roof, so one theory (I think?) Is that the boneskinner or another minion of jormag had been sneaking down to whisper to Bangar. So he could've been influenced by the elder dragon, but he wasn't under it's control until Jormag shoved the voice into him.

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

That is what I want from GW2. As a commander, we should have seen the logic in Bangar's motives.  But in the end, it turns out that Bangar was just controlled by Jormag and was never really smart or capable enough to be the Charr leader. 

I don't know where the hell you got this from, as Bangar had been a long standing leader of the Blood Legion, and always described as a wild card/risk even before he was formally added to the game as a visible NPC. He went along with the treaty but everybody was concerned he'd try to break free at some point, or do something.

"He's never been smart or capable enough" Makes me just wonder what you've been reading, because Jormag's influence on Bangar is recent.

 

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Also, I never played Warcraft 3, so have no idea what example you're referring to. But based on how you're describing it, I'd say GW2 does have stuff like that. EoD for example could have just been a story where you put down the last elder dragon, who is the most cunning and evil of all, and instead it's much more complicated than that. Heck, as early as Path of Fire, they turned "we're hunting elder dragons" into "wait, maybe it's a bit more complicated." And going back even further, consider the ending to Heart of Thorns:

 

The corruption of Arthas in Warcraft 3 basically starts with him dealing with orcs raiding and murdering towns, then finding plagued grains being farmed and packed up. He destroys the farm producing it, but it had already been shipped out.

By the time he reaches the next town, a bunch of people had eaten it and turned into zombies, which he saw firsthand. Reinforcements arrived later to help fight off the undead, but they didn't see the source.

Later on, they arrive at a major city, and see large numbers of grain crates (from the plagued source). Arthas, knowing all who ate the grains are doomed to become zombies, orders a purge of the city, killing everybody (as so much grain had arrived and been widely spread, so it was likely most of the town were affected). The other paladin (And Arthas's mentor figure) and  Arthas's mage friend/crush, and a number of the soldiers related to/under their command leave with them, completely unwilling to just slaughter civilians.

Arthas purges the city, runs into one of the people behind it who flees, and goes down a dark path of doing anything it takes to protect his homeland, eventually becoming  death knight, returning, murdering his father and taking over the kingdom, now one of undeath. And other such terrible things.

[Tazer.2157]

6 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm confused by your interpretation of the story. I thought it was pretty clear Bangar was acting of his own volition in the beginning, it's just he was in way over his head thinking he could control an elder dragon and predictably (poetically?) ended up controlled by it in the end. And why would the commander understand the logic of Bangar's motives? The commander knows that they don't actually control an elder dragon like Bangar thinks and that from all their experience with elder dragons, they are extremely deadly and some of them (Mordremoth) are very tricky too, with Aurene being the one exception they are aware of because of her upbringing and evolution as a dragon.

Bangar was the imperator of the Blood Legion consisting of perhaps the best soldiers in Tyria. Based on lore, the Charr were very successful in war. They are Spartans, bred to fight and have no other purpose, the weak have no place in their society.  Going off this alone, you would think that Bangar is competent enough to understand the influence of Jormag and smart enough to understand the limits and weakness of his legion. 

Now does this sound like someone who would risk war with the other legions while trying to capture an Elder Dragon? No way. IMO the Charr, being a military race would be united in viewing the commander as a threat. Here for the first time, they have a person with an army , an Elder Dragon and who has shifted the balance of power by killing two Elder Dragons and even a god. Why would anyone trust such a person for that matter. If the commander wants, Aurene can destroy entire cities with her Thor like super speed. 

IBS reduced the might and threat of the Charr, it reduced what it  meant to be the Blood Legion Imperator and it further reduced the scope of the game by having only the commander be able to beat not just one, but two elder dragons at the same time

[Kalavier.1097]

25 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Bangar was the imperator of the Blood Legion consisting of perhaps the best soldiers in Tyria. Based on lore, the Charr were very successful in war. They are Spartans, bred to fight and have no other purpose, the weak have no place in their society.  Going off this alone, you would think that Bangar is competent enough to understand the influence of Jormag and smart enough to understand the limits and weakness of his legion.

Yes, and Bangar was competent enough to fuel the Renegades without ever being caught, or caught with evidence pointing to him, for years, against even the Ash Legion!

He fought humans, then flame legion. He hasn't been in prolonged warfare against the dragon minions, especially the icebrood and Jormag. Not even the Pact (or hero team) was prepared for the whispers when they started marching into Bjora marches.

You are also ignoring the fact Bangar actively recruited members of all four legions to his side, discreetly, without anybody fully understanding what was going on until they had all marches away and couldn't be stopped. He knew his forces weaknesses, and made sure those gaps were filled by like minded warbands from the other legions.

The description you give is true of Blood Legion, but all the legions have support elements and those are honored as well. Unlike warcraft orcs, farmers, miners, smiths are all recognized as required elements of the Charr legion, whether at war, or at peace.

30 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Now does this sound like someone who would risk war with the other legions while trying to capture an Elder Dragon? No way. IMO the Charr, being a military race would be united in viewing the commander as a threat. Here for the first time, they have a person with an army , an Elder Dragon and who has shifted the balance of power by killing two Elder Dragons and even a god. Why would anyone trust such a person for that matter. If the commander wants, Aurene can destroy entire cities with her Thor like super speed. 

 

Again ignoring the fact he constructed an army of warbands from all four legions before he even left, and then continued to recruit and steal resources and troops from the other legions in great enough numbers that in a straight up fight his dominion was equal (or greater) then the four legions combined facing him.

Why would they be united against the Commander especially when two out of the three imperators literally pushed for peace with humans (discreetly at first, then openly) so the Charr were freed of resources? The Pact is an anti-dragon force, and isn't involved in conquering nations. The Charr aren't brainless warcraft orcs who only think "WAR SMASH KILL RAWR"

Again, it's openly shown that Banger either has bad intel, or purposefully twisted the intelligence about what Aurene and the Commander can do (and their relationship) to RECRUIT WARBANDS. He literally used Aurene's branding of the champion infront of the crowd as a subtle recruitment message of "See? We are next."

He recruited all the charr who didn't trust the other races, who wanted to keep fighting, who hated the idea of the peace treaty into an organized army that became the Charr dominion, then the frost legion!

34 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

IBS reduced the might and threat of the Charr, it reduced what it  meant to be the Blood Legion Imperator and it further reduced the scope of the game by having only the commander be able to beat not just one, but two elder dragons at the same time

It's literally a plot point that the "Charr who want to keep at war." equaled the rest of the legions, and were able to fight the legions to not only a standstill, but actively push them back until reinforcements came in. How the hell is that "reduced the might or threat."

How the hell does it reduce "What it means to be blood legion imperator" when the Blood Legion imperator nearly transformed the Charr culture into his dominion and defeat the four legions, BEFORE Frost Legion became a thing!

And "Having the commander beat two elder dragons at the same time." You missed the whole point where we didn't.

We forced the two into fighting each other. If you wanted to grant credit for "Kills" Jormag killed Primordus and Primordus killed Jormag. Plus you know, there was a literal army involved helping out there too.