GW2 should feel like its own world and not mirror reality

[Tazer.2157]

Just finished EoD and for the most part, it was a very enjoyable experience. But why are the writers so intent on pushing real world issues into a video game? Why can't Cantha have its own culture, beliefs, etc. without needing to be a modern day version of the USA? I wish the game was more daring and  controversial in certain narratives. For example, why should Cantha open up when it was the outsiders who messed everything up in the first place? It is a valid concern especially if a society has been isolated for so long.  GW2 need not be this lovey-dovey world. The world definitely needs some nuance and it should feel like a different place to experience. 

[Super Hayes.6890]

I think the narrative choices made in EoD were primarily aimed at wrapping up the dragon cycle. It didn't feel like it intentionally mirrored the real world. I'm curious where and what is next.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 hours ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I think the narrative choices made in EoD were primarily aimed at wrapping up the dragon cycle. It didn't feel like it intentionally mirrored the real world. I'm curious where and what is next.

It certainly felt like it was mirroring the real world in regards to how people spoke.  Most of them sounded like they were from California.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

 For example, why should Cantha open up when it was the outsiders who messed everything up in the first place? It is a valid concern especially if a society has been isolated for so long.  GW2 need not be this lovey-dovey world.

Because a closed Cantha = no exploring the landmass?

"lovey-dovey"? What?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

How did outsiders mess up everything? 

Did I miss something? 

For me, the story was basically this:

We: Let me through. Need to save the world. 

Cantha: Politics. 

We: Guys. We don't have the time for that. 

Cantha: POLITICS! 

We: Turn around. The world is literally ending. 

Cantha:  P O L I T I C S¡!!!!!!!!!!! 

We: OK. Let just kick the door in and save some idiots! 

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

How did outsiders mess up everything? 

Did I miss something? 

For me, the story was basically this:

We: Let me through. Need to save the world. 

Cantha: Politics. 

We: Guys. We don't have the time for that. 

Cantha: POLITICS! 

We: Turn around. The world is literally ending. 

Cantha:  P O L I T I C S¡!!!!!!!!!!! 

We: OK. Let just kick the door in and save some idiots! 

TECHNICALLY. Ankka did mess everything up and is an outsider.

 

[Labjax.2465]

The game has always not taken itself that seriously with unexplained RL use of language and occasionally even references, IIRC (I remember spotting an example of the 2nd recently, but the details escape me). People thinking it's suddenly that way with EoD need to go back and play from the start, starting with the personal story (disclaimer: it may be intensely boring). There's snippets of stuff here and there where it comes across like it's supposed to be an immersive world, but it's never been all that thorough.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

48 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

TECHNICALLY. Ankka did mess everything up and is an outsider.

 

Ohh yeah. Totally forgot about her. 

[Ashantara.8731]

6 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

It certainly felt like it was mirroring the real world in regards to how people spoke.  Most of them sounded like they were from California.

So much this. I hate how GW2 has adapted this thing for "modern American speak."

And the amount of tech in EoD -- like we aren't fed up enough with it already in real life, now it must also invade our fantasy gaming experience. 😣
 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[cyberzombie.7348]

5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The game has always not taken itself that seriously with unexplained RL use of language and occasionally even references, IIRC

Yeah, I never understood how that's now an issue. The Humans, Norns, Charr, & Asurans has always had an American accent/dialect (despite the Asurans having their own slang), just in different pitches. With the only outliner being Sylvari sounding like a posh Brit. Even then, there are snippets of a Charr sounding human in the Atherblades dungeon.

[maxwelgm.4315]

The narrative is definitely based off of more contemporary events, but that's actually OK imo - not every fantasy RPG has to re-enact other fantasy references or medieval tropes to be good. We can have nice fantasy stories about governments similar to what we have today and about themes dear to us IRL such as climate and energy crisis.

 

The real problem and likely what has tipped you off from enjoying the worldbuilding is that, well, there is actually not that much worldbuilding. The present batch of GW2 writers have made it very clear in the past that their philosophy is to put character development in front of worldbuilding. Tyria is no longer its own place as it was back when Ree wrote about it or even further back when GW1 was written - it is now where the characters develop, be it the Commander, Aurene, Soo-Won, Joon, Taimi, Rytlock, Braham, etc. Everything is secondary to how these characters develop their story arcs and how their relationships evolve. This results in things happening or even existing merely because of character development and not because they would make sense in the world.

 

EoD has entire map sections dedicated to characters such as Joon and Soo-Won and said sections serve absolutely no other purpose even though they could have been more. And even achievements related to historical events such as the many Kurzick achievements are always tied to mini character stories and only show as much of the world as you need to be shown in order to get to know the characters. Compare Orr - where Zhaitan's presence was pervasive but also clearly invasive, in the sense that there was clearly a civilization there that once sank into the sea and now is corrupted by undead - to what little of the Jade Sea we got to see - where Soo-Won takes practically the entirety of the map's personality as if everything is there only and only to take us closer to her, including the Harvest Temple itself. Dragon's Stand looked more like a place in itself even though it was a literal lane-based race to the Mouth of Mordremoth. So TL;DR: I suspect you would be able to enjoy a world built to mirror our contemporary one as long as it was properly built, which GW2 wasn't from Path of Fire onwards.

[Tazer.2157]

 

2 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The narrative is definitely based off of more contemporary events, but that's actually OK imo - not every fantasy RPG has to re-enact other fantasy references or medieval tropes to be good. We can have nice fantasy stories about governments similar to what we have today and about themes dear to us IRL such as climate and energy crisis.

 

The real problem and likely what has tipped you off from enjoying the worldbuilding is that, well, there is actually not that much worldbuilding. The present batch of GW2 writers have made it very clear in the past that their philosophy is to put character development in front of worldbuilding. Tyria is no longer its own place as it was back when Ree wrote about it or even further back when GW1 was written - it is now where the characters develop, be it the Commander, Aurene, Soo-Won, Joon, Taimi, Rytlock, Braham, etc. Everything is secondary to how these characters develop their story arcs and how their relationships evolve. This results in things happening or even existing merely because of character development and not because they would make sense in the world.

 

EoD has entire map sections dedicated to characters such as Joon and Soo-Won and said sections serve absolutely no other purpose even though they could have been more. And even achievements related to historical events such as the many Kurzick achievements are always tied to mini character stories and only show as much of the world as you need to be shown in order to get to know the characters. Compare Orr - where Zhaitan's presence was pervasive but also clearly invasive, in the sense that there was clearly a civilization there that once sank into the sea and now is corrupted by undead - to what little of the Jade Sea we got to see - where Soo-Won takes practically the entirety of the map's personality as if everything is there only and only to take us closer to her, including the Harvest Temple itself. Dragon's Stand looked more like a place in itself even though it was a literal lane-based race to the Mouth of Mordremoth. So TL;DR: I suspect you would be able to enjoy a world built to mirror our contemporary one as long as it was properly built, which GW2 wasn't from Path of Fire onwards.

This is so correct and its not just GW2 that's affected by his trend. The last few seasons of game of thrones suffered from the same decisions where the world was totally disregarded and emphasis was placed more on individual characters. This is definably true about the maps in Cantha. Apart from the forest, everything else felt like it was put in to prop up Joon and her dragon jade technology. Its a shame because I was more interested to meet Canthans, know their lifestyle and how their society changed by being closed out from the outside world. Nonetheless, we did get a very good story and likable characters but I hope the game moves from the current trend and goes back to world building, which is why I think the maps in the core game feel more immersive and more expansive than the Canthan ones. 

Less Hollywood  and more MMO is what I hope for in the next project. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Tazer.2157

[Tazer.2157]

3 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Yeah, I never understood how that's now an issue. The Humans, Norns, Charr, & Asurans has always had an American accent/dialect (despite the Asurans having their own slang), just in different pitches. With the only outliner being Sylvari sounding like a posh Brit. Even then, there are snippets of a Charr sounding human in the Atherblades dungeon.

Well the dialogue and slang are part of the problem, but the bigger issue I have with the game is how the story and the commander's motives are shaped by current events. Do you think if the game was made today we would have the Svanir live alongside the Norn in Hoelbrak? Do you think the Asura would be made to sound arrogant and intellectually superior? Would we have the grawl? Would the Charr be a society that values war above everything else? 

The game is already humanizing the races and that is the issue I have. The Charr are made soft, Cantha is now an inclusive, open society. Judging by this trend I fear the Tengu will be next race to be humanized. These changes make the world uninteresting. I want the Charr to riot now that we control the strongest dragon in Tyria, I want discontent as the commander has gotten more powerful.( Even I don't like how powerful the commander has gotten!)  But what we have are everyone holding hands and fighting the bad guys with the power of friendship. 

[Wolfb.7025]

But Cantha politics were like that since GW1

 

8 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

And the amount of tech in EoD -- like we aren't fed up enough with it already in real life, now it must also invade our fantasy gaming experience. 😣
 

Yeah i'm already fed up with real life dragon-magic powered jade teleporters and portable tiny flying jade bots with pocket elevators.

[cyberzombie.7348]

40 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Do you think if the game was made today we would have the Svanir live alongside the Norn in Hoelbrak?

Idk, that'd be up to the original writer to make that call.

 

40 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Do you think the Asura would be made to sound arrogant and intellectually superior?

Even in the core game Asuran aren't all portrayed as college stuck-ups. An asura from eastern Maguuma has a different posture than one living in Southsun Cove or  Gendarrian Fields. Hell even the docks in Rata Sum you can see the difference.

 

49 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Would the Charr be a society that values war above everything else? 

Again, more so a regional thing plus to there is diplomacy in war. What you want the Charr to be an aimless belligerent or a competent militaristic state? 

 

1 hour ago, Tazer.2157 said:

I want the Charr to riot now that we control the strongest dragon in Tyria, I want discontent as the commander has gotten more powerful.

That kinda already happened in the IBS. And considering the diplomacy the legions been developing over the decades beforehand. Coupled with the known dangers of an elder dragon, and the likelihood of the bridge with the Pact being burned would be suicide on all facets.

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Yeah i'm already fed up with real life dragon-magic powered jade teleporters and portable tiny flying jade bots with pocket elevators.

Very funny! 😄

The source of power doesn't matter, the tech is still there. Whether it's elevators or teleporters doesn't matter. We now have comms, internet, electronic billboards , holo news, power plants and electricity, zip lines, mechs and bots,... Where does it end? 😒

Edited June 16, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[cyberzombie.7348]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

We now have comms, internet, electronic billboards , holo news, power plants and electricity, zip lines, mechs and bots,... Where does it end? 😒

Minus the wireless comms & jade zip lines, the tech has always existed in the core game most noticeably in Rata Sum, and  the Crucible of Eternity dungeon. Even in the Zhaitan plotline you can pilot a golem that mows down risen.

Edited June 16, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[Zola.6197]

These whiny threads are getting annoying. I wish there was an eye roll reaction. 🙄 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

35 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

These whiny threads are getting annoying. I wish there was an eye roll reaction. 🙄 

Then don't read them.  We're paying customers, we've a right to express our opinions on the state of this product we've paid for.

[Tukaram.8256]

1 hour ago, Zola.6197 said:

These whiny threads are getting annoying. I wish there was an eye roll reaction. 🙄 

Yeah, the crying is ridiculous. 😎

Also, EoD was the best story in the franchise - the most entertaining and the most fun to play. 

[Labjax.2465]

7 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

I want the Charr to riot now that we control the strongest dragon in Tyria, I want discontent as the commander has gotten more powerful.( Even I don't like how powerful the commander has gotten!)

Have you not played IBS yet? Without getting into spoilery details, that's kinda the whole premise of it, is they see it as the commander having a dragon of their own and start warmongering and thinking they can get a dragon of their own in Jormag. They're also wrong though, the commander doesn't "control" the strongest dragon, they are its champion and have a bond with it of sorts.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Yeah, the crying is ridiculous. 😎

Also, EoD was the best story in the franchise - the most entertaining and the most fun to play. 

Again, you're not obligated to read them and you're certainly free to state your subjective opinion about EoD, just as we are.

[Kalavier.1097]

19 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

That kinda already happened in the IBS. And considering the diplomacy the legions been developing over the decades beforehand. Coupled with the known dangers of an elder dragon, and the likelihood of the bridge with the Pact being burned would be suicide on all facets.

I ALWAYS love these people who want the Charr to be complex, interesting groups, but also "CHARR WANT WAR ALL THE TIME RAWR SCREW PEACE DRAGONS DEAD WE NOW MUST MARCH OF THE WORLD!" As if they are as dumb as warcraft orcs.

14 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Minus the wireless comms & jade zip lines, the tech has always existed in the core game most noticeably in Rata Sum, and  the Crucible of Eternity dungeon. Even in the Zhaitan plotline you can pilot a golem that mows down risen.

The only difference is that Xunlai doesn't add 15 extra steps just to prove they are smart, teach others how to use the tech and produce it with the masses and quality of life in mind.

Instead of the Tech being horded by the Asura who treat everybody else as too dumb to understand the basics, Xunlai spreads tech around.

It'll be interesting if we see Rata sum react to that threat now, as Jade Tech has shattered the idea that the other races cannot understand the science/tech the Asura have.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I ALWAYS love these people who want the Charr to be complex, interesting groups, but also "CHARR WANT WAR ALL THE TIME RAWR SCREW PEACE DRAGONS DEAD WE NOW MUST MARCH OF THE WORLD!" As if they are as dumb as warcraft orcs.

The only difference is that Xunlai doesn't add 15 extra steps just to prove they are smart, teach others how to use the tech and produce it with the masses and quality of life in mind.

Instead of the Tech being horded by the Asura who treat everybody else as too dumb to understand the basics, Xunlai spreads tech around.

It'll be interesting if we see Rata sum react to that threat now, as Jade Tech has shattered the idea that the other races cannot understand the science/tech the Asura have.

I wouldn't say the Xunlai "spreads the tech around" much more than the Asura do, the Xunlai is a corporation after all: if you can afford the tech you can't have the tech.  Case in point is one of the poorer districts in Kaineng where they have to use steam-based tech instead.

Edited June 17, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Kalavier.1097]

5 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I wouldn't say the Xunlai "spreads the tech around" much more than the Asura do, the Xunlai is a corporation after all: if you can afford the tech you can't have the tech.  Case in point is one of the poorer districts in Kaineng where they have to use steam-based tech instead.

Xunlai's stance on the borders opening was also partly "We can spread jade-tech further and help people over there."

They are certainly much more open about their tech and teaching then the Arcane Council who hoard tech and refuse to admit anybody else outside of Rata Sum controlled areas is smart enough to be able to operate it.