Quickness Role:

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

14 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Ok i waited. What now buddy?

Now we wait for another 6 months for Anet to disappoint us when they "fix" us again.

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Ok i waited. What now buddy?

We still don't know the duration on Quickness from a banner. Patch notes didn't include that. 

[anbujackson.9564]

There is nothing to wait for really. The changes are already worse than I imagined.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We still don't know the duration on Quickness from a banner. Patch notes didn't include that. 

I expect 3 to max 5 seconds if generous per banner. Not that i play warrior but still where it leave warrior in? Open world class?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We still don't know the duration on Quickness from a banner. Patch notes didn't include that. 

You're  right. They did neglect that information. Perhaps they're going heavy on the quickness duration. I doubt it though. I bet it is 1-2s, and I bet CMC will halve it in competitive.

[Rishnock.6230]

(PvE)

Yeah my use of warhorn for damage is now entirely moot. They took off the +25% damage buff from it. At the very least if they kept it, it would mean running warhorn for quickness wouldn't be that painful.

 

But besides that... 10% quickness uptime in exchange for your offhand is horrific. I was hoping for healquick warrior to be enabled because I assumed there were competent people working on the patch. Martial Cadence is giving 30%, but you can't take that and Vigorous Shouts, so I was hoping Warhorn was the answer. I was also hoping +stability on warhorn 5, or +protection on a banner.

 

The warhorn quickness is only really enabled by Bladesworn's Lush Forest trait, further shoe-horning you into Bladesworn for quickness uptime. I'm down for cool-down reduction playstyle, but CDR would need to be worked into other trait trees.

 

0/10 would not recommend.

[Obtena.7952]

51 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You're  right. They did neglect that information. Perhaps they're going heavy on the quickness duration. I doubt it though. I bet it is 1-2s, and I bet CMC will halve it in competitive.

Going heavy on quickness rotation would satisfy the 'banners not engaging' and 'don't want to be banner slaves' complaints people were continually throwing around that Anet said they were listening to. 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 24, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Going heavy on quickness rotation would satisfy the 'banners not engaging' and 'don't want to be banner slaves' complaints people were continually throwing around. 

Yes but if it works on picking up banners and putting them back down you're not hitting things and even as a boon support you're still expected to hit things.

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Yes but if it works on picking up banners and putting them back down you're not hitting things and even as a boon support you're still expected to hit things.

So first, I don't think it works by just pick up/put down (do you mean by IT = pulsing another quickness cycle?) based on the language of  "quickness is granted to allies in the area when the warrior uses the banner skill". To me that indicates banners proc quickness a measly handful of seconds every MINUTE ONCE when they are placed the first time, though that's just speculation on my part. 

Second, that might be true but if I'm Anet, I'm probably of the mindset that the ability to move the banner without hitting CD is a BONUS for other boon applications because they have littered other sources of team quickness all over the place to make it more engaging, made banners more mobile and not make people 'bannerslaves' after they stop proc'ing quickness. Yup, it's weird, but it's plausible because it addresses the main complaints people were throwing out there for not wanting banners. 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

I think the biggest issue is that martial cadence remains tied to soldier's focus on a 10s CD. This is a double gate: first SF has to be off CD, and THEN you need to land a burst skill (which have their own CDs and resource requirement). Contrast this with Harb, which grants quickness simply by being in shroud.

 

In other words, as is so often the case, warrior gets a dumbed-down and less efficient version of what other classes have. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think the biggest issue is that martial cadence remains tied to soldier's focus on a 10s CD. This is a double gate: first SF has to be off CD, and THEN you need to land a burst skill (which have their own CDs and resource requirement). Contrast this with Harb, which grants quickness simply by being in shroud.

I think that's the point, to appeal to the people who didn't want to be tied to banners and wanted more 'engagement' for their support role. It's what people said they didn't like about banners so, seems we get piecemeal team quickness buffs  over a bunch of different things. 

But yes, it's unreasonable that something a team is relying on a warrior to deliver as a team buff depends on landing a burst. Let's make this bitter pill taste better ...

How about this Anet ... you give me 3 seconds of quickness for EACH bar of adrenaline I use in my burst please? Other burst traits and mechanics are intended to work based on number of bars used ... why not this as well?

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think that's the point, to appeal to the people who didn't want to be tied to banners and wanted more 'engagement' for their support role. It's what people said they didn't like about banners so, seems we get piecemeal team quickness buffs  over a bunch of different things. 

But yes, it's unreasonable that something a team is relying on a warrior to deliver as a team buff depends on landing a burst. Let's make this bitter pill taste better ...

How about this Anet ... you give me 3 seconds of quickness for EACH bar of adrenaline I use in my burst please? Other burst traits and mechanics are intended to work based on number of bars used ... why not this as well?

 

Yes!! This exactly. Maybe not 3s per bar(that sounds OP AF), but 1.5s per bar on burst use (not hit) would provide meaningful, high output quickness in all content--and do so in a way that is intimately tied to Warrior's fundamental mechanic.

 

As an aside, this is part of a much bigger pattern of traits that are limited by proccing on "burst hit" (Berserker's Power, adrenal healing, building momentum...). These should all be redesigned around activation on burst use. 

[anbujackson.9564]

Ok I feel like doing some fancy math. Assumptions:

- Deploying a banner gives 3 seconds of quickness every 60 seconds (unconfirmed so far)

- You run 3 banners as utilities.

- You run 100 % BD

- Skills are affected by alacrity for "realistic scneario".

- You always hit a burst every 10 seconds and you use banners and warhorn off CD. So you get 2s every 16 seconds, 3 seconds every 10 seconds and 9 seconds every 48 seconds.

- For easier calculation, we apply every quickness source at once at the beginning. 

Starting quickness: 4 seconds warhorn + 6 seconds MC + 18 seconds from banners = 28 seconds

After 10 seconds:

18 seconds left + 6 seconds reapplied from MC = 24 seconds

After 6 seconds:

18 seconds left + 4 seconds from warhorn = 22 seconds

After 4 seconds:

18 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 24 seconds

After 10 seconds:

14 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 20 seconds

After 4 seconds:

16 seconds + 4 seconds from warhorn = 20 seconds

After 6 seconds:

14 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 20 seconds

After 8 seconds:

12 seconds + 18 seconds from banners = 30 seconds

After 2 seconds:

28 seconds + 6 seconds from MC + 4 seconds from warhorn = 30 seconds (boon cap)

And so on. So in this scenario we have a net positive of quickness (keep the basic assumptions in mind). We would loose quickness uptime in the next cicle since we overcapped in the first but it doesnt really matter.

 

Now for 50% boon duration: You start with 3 seconds from warhorn + 4,5 seconds from MC + 13,5 seconds from banners = 21 seconds

After 10 seconds:

11 seconds left + 4,5 seconds reapplied from MC = 15,5 seconds

After 6 seconds:

9,5 seconds left + 3 seconds from warhorn = 12,5 seconds

After 4 seconds:

8,5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 13 seconds

After 10 seconds:

3 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 7,5 seconds

After 4 seconds:

3,5 seconds + 3 seconds from warhorn = 6,5 seconds

After 6 seconds:

0.5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 5 seconds

After 8 seconds:

-3 seconds + 13,5 seconds from banners = 10,5 seconds

After 2 seconds:

8,5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC + 3 seconds from warhorn = 16 seconds 

After 10 seconds:

6 seconds + 4,5 seconds = 10,5 seconds and so on, so the quickness will run out again before banners are up.

So running 50% boon duration in a completely ideal scenario is already not enough for perma quickness on long encounters. Berserker support is pretty much a no go with this, hitting a burst every 10 seconds is already hard and I am not even factoring the cooldown from berserker mode in.

Feel free to correct me if I did a mistake somewhere. Maybe I have calculation error inbetween. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

29 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Ok I feel like doing some fancy math. Assumptions:

- Deploying a banner gives 3 seconds of quickness every 60 seconds (unconfirmed so far)

- You run 3 banners as utilities.

- You run 100 % BD

- Skills are affected by alacrity for "realistic scneario".

- You always hit a burst every 10 seconds and you use banners and warhorn off CD. So you get 2s every 16 seconds, 3 seconds every 10 seconds and 9 seconds every 48 seconds.

- For easier calculation, we apply every quickness source at once at the beginning. 

Starting quickness: 4 seconds warhorn + 6 seconds MC + 18 seconds from banners = 28 seconds

After 10 seconds:

18 seconds left + 6 seconds reapplied from MC = 24 seconds

After 6 seconds:

18 seconds left + 4 seconds from warhorn = 22 seconds

After 4 seconds:

18 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 24 seconds

After 10 seconds:

14 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 20 seconds

After 4 seconds:

16 seconds + 4 seconds from warhorn = 20 seconds

After 6 seconds:

14 seconds + 6 seconds from MC = 20 seconds

After 8 seconds:

12 seconds + 18 seconds from banners = 30 seconds

After 2 seconds:

28 seconds + 6 seconds from MC + 4 seconds from warhorn = 30 seconds (boon cap)

And so on. So in this scenario we have a net positive of quickness (keep the basic assumptions in mind). We would loose quickness uptime in the next cicle since we overcapped in the first but it doesnt really matter.

 

Now for 50% boon duration: You start with 3 seconds from warhorn + 4,5 seconds from MC + 13,5 seconds from banners = 21 seconds

After 10 seconds:

11 seconds left + 4,5 seconds reapplied from MC = 15,5 seconds

After 6 seconds:

9,5 seconds left + 3 seconds from warhorn = 12,5 seconds

After 4 seconds:

8,5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 13 seconds

After 10 seconds:

3 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 7,5 seconds

After 4 seconds:

3,5 seconds + 3 seconds from warhorn = 6,5 seconds

After 6 seconds:

0.5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC = 5 seconds

After 8 seconds:

-3 seconds + 13,5 seconds from banners = 10,5 seconds

After 2 seconds:

8,5 seconds + 4,5 seconds from MC + 3 seconds from warhorn = 16 seconds 

After 10 seconds:

6 seconds + 4,5 seconds = 10,5 seconds and so on, so the quickness will run out again before banners are up.

So running 50% boon duration in a completely ideal scenario is already not enough for perma quickness on long encounters. Berserker support is pretty much a no go with this, hitting a burst every 10 seconds is already hard and I am not even factoring the cooldown from berserker mode in.

Feel free to correct me if I did a mistake somewhere. Maybe I have calculation error inbetween. 

With Alacrity reducing WH4 to 16s and having 100% boon duration you'd have:
4s every16s (Charge)
6s every 10s (Cadence)
Cadence comes off recharge, so another 6s. Charge is off CD, so 4 more seconds. Cadence if now off CD.

At 100% BD Charge and Cadence are enough to cover quickness (minus skill activation times) so long as there is 100% upkeep of alacrity from another source.

Banners will not be needed for quickness, so adding quickness there was a waste of time.

So I bet the optimum support build would be X/WH TTL/FGJ/SiO/Banner of Defense/Elite

FGJ covers Fury and might along with Marching Orders, SiO and WH covering condition cleansing fury, swiftness, vigor and barrier, and BoD will pulse resistance for people with To The Limit giving  everyone endurance. Tactics Mid/Bot/Top or Mid/Mid/Top.

Sword/Horn for condi. Axe/Horn for power. Mace/Mace for the CC set. Spellbreaker and Core would do it best as it relies on accessible bursts.
 

There was a missed opportunity to have the quickness on Martial Cadence scale based on the adrenaline spent, but oh well.

[anbujackson.9564]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

With Alacrity reducing WH4 to 16s and having 100% boon duration you'd have:
4s every16s (Charge)
6s every 10s (Cadence)
Cadence comes off recharge, so another 6s. Charge is off CD, so 4 more seconds. Cadence if now off CD.

At 100% BD Charge and Cadence are enough to cover quickness (minus skill activation times) so long as there is 100% upkeep of alacrity from another source.

Banners will not be needed for quickness, so adding quickness there was a waste of time.

So I bet the optimum support build would be X/WH TTL/FGJ/SiO/Banner of Defense/Elite

FGJ covers Fury and might along with Marching Orders, SiO and WH covering condition cleansing fury, swiftness, vigor and barrier, and BoD will pulse resistance for people with To The Limit giving  everyone endurance. Tactics Mid/Bot/Top or Mid/Mid/Top.

Sword/Horn for condi. Axe/Horn for power. Mace/Mace for the CC set. Spellbreaker and Core would do it best as it relies on accessible bursts.
 

There was a missed opportunity to have the quickness on Martial Cadence scale based on the adrenaline spent, but oh well.

True, but thats completely unrealistic. And ye, taking tactics and warhorn is probably already the biggest dps loss. Whatever I guess.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

True, but thats completely unrealistic. And ye, taking tactics and warhorn is probably already the biggest dps loss. Whatever I guess.

True, but like I said before we're seeing a decoupling of our support and dps roles, so we'll see what happens.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

It'll already be a huge dps loss because if we have to have 100% boons I'm not sure if we can hit 100% crit which for a power warrior isn't a good thing.

[eXruina.4956]

there is no reason for people to take a "quickwar" over a "quickbrand", so theres another nail on warrior's coffin.

Edited June 25, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[JTGuevara.9018]

 

4 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

It'll already be a huge dps loss because if we have to have 100% boons I'm not sure if we can hit 100% crit which for a power warrior isn't a good thing.

There's also the fact that warrior only has ONE trait that has access to concentration! (Roaring Reveille)

Edited June 25, 2022 by JTGuevara.9018
add

[Rishnock.6230]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

With Alacrity reducing WH4 to 16s and having 100% boon duration you'd have:
4s every16s (Charge)
6s every 10s (Cadence)
Cadence comes off recharge, so another 6s. Charge is off CD, so 4 more seconds. Cadence if now off CD.

At 100% BD Charge and Cadence are enough to cover quickness (minus skill activation times) so long as there is 100% upkeep of alacrity from another source.

 

Hello sir or ma'am. 4/16 is 25%. 6/10 is 60%. This is 85% quickness uptime. The standard is 100% uptime.

[anbujackson.9564]

6 hours ago, Rishnock.6230 said:

 

Hello sir or ma'am. 4/16 is 25%. 6/10 is 60%. This is 85% quickness uptime. The standard is 100% uptime.

Actually true when you consider it again.

You get 10 seconds from these.

After 10 seconds you get another 6 seconds. after 6 seconds you get 4 seconds. After 4 seconds you get 6 seconds. BUT: Your warhorn now is still on a 12 second cooldown. So now you have a downtime of a whopping 6 seconds. Good point.

So you still need multiple banners AND a lot of boon duration. Fun times. Not to mention cast times and the ability to hit your burst exactly after 10 seconds, like it was already mentioned.