Raid “easy mode” will soon be available (kind of)

[Biziut.3594]

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

The rewards could stay the same honestly, they are terrible anyway plus you will wipe a lot of times. Just make it so it does not reward LI/KP. 

Agree, but i would also take out chest you get for first boss kill (since it's technicly not a normal kill), and block all the achivments that are required for legendaries. (Expect ones that can be done in cleared instances anyways)

[Katary.7096]

Calling it a "mode" is an interesting choice, since the content isn't going to change. "Emboldened mode" is simply normal mode, but players get 3 potentially escalating stat buffs. I have been told that both WoW and FF14 have similar systems, which suggests that the developers aren't doing anything crazy here. I expect the system is going to be much less helpful in mechanics heavy encounters, since instant kill effects won't be effected by increased player health or healing received. But most of the difference that this system might make is going to be regarding player perception anyway, so at least they picked a fitting name.

I would like to see the "emboldened mode" be set to inactive by default though.

[Saharo.5381]

Would have preferred a hefty rewards increase or another leg or two that requires achieves across game modes to draw in new raiders.

I'm also confused who the changes are targeted at -- endgame players who don't want to put in the time/effort of joining a training group and educating themselves on raid roles/mechanics? Because that's a bit sad...

Edited June 24, 2022 by Saharo Gravewind.5120

[Artemis.8034]

1 hour ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Would have preferred a hefty rewards increase or another leg or two that requires achieves across game modes to draw in new raiders.

I'm also confused who the changes are targeted at -- endgame players who don't want to put in the time/effort of joining a training group and educating themselves on raid roles/mechanics? Because that's a bit sad...

They said its an entry mode for players that have been putting off raiding because of being afraid to try or dont get accepted into regular runs, its for them to see the raids and learn about raid instancing. That has the potential to create new raiders for those that like the experience 

[Saharo.5381]

12 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

They said its an entry mode for players that have been putting off raiding because of being afraid to try or dont get accepted into regular runs, its for them to see the raids and learn about raid instancing. That has the potential to create new raiders for those that like the experience 

Ahh I see. Don't really agree with it as a good solution as there are training run LFGs every night and those taught me how to raid just fine, but I can't say it doesn't have potential to reach a larger crowd. 

[Artemis.8034]

2 minutes ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Ahh I see. Don't really agree with it as a good solution as there are training run LFGs every night and those taught me how to raid just fine, but I can't say it doesn't have potential to reach a larger crowd. 

Thats the thing, looking at the overall player base it can attract more players this way, because it will be easier for them to get a kill, and feel like they did something. Everyone walks before they run, some will get bit by the raid bug like me and that will be their focus, some will never want to do it again,  the ones that will are potential raiders to go on and master raiding. I didnt think i would like raids now I do cms not all cms but most. Its all about giving people the experience and letting them see if they like it. Its also a boon for the raid community that is starting to bleed raiders from the game, and a possible way for anet to see more players interested and therefore for raid wings, and achievements 

[Saharo.5381]

1 hour ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Thats the thing, looking at the overall player base it can attract more players this way, because it will be easier for them to get a kill, and feel like they did something. Everyone walks before they run, some will get bit by the raid bug like me and that will be their focus, some will never want to do it again,  the ones that will are potential raiders to go on and master raiding. I didnt think i would like raids now I do cms not all cms but most. Its all about giving people the experience and letting them see if they like it. Its also a boon for the raid community that is starting to bleed raiders from the game, and a possible way for anet to see more players interested and therefore for raid wings, and achievements 

 

Like someone else mentioned on this thread, I honestly think the reputation/social/communication component of raiding scares off ppl more than the simple inaccessibility of tools for beginners. I feel like ppl just echo that it's elitist/toxic/gatekept without trying it for themselves.

I just started a few months ago and have no issues. I do recognize I'm just one person (though I know others who took it up themselves just fine), but I am yet to hear someone critical of raids say that they have tried training groups, watching videos, reading walkthroughs, and are still facing a ridiculously high barrier to entry. You can get the kill in quite a few raid training groups on your first raid attempt ever. Been there, done that, seen it tons of times when I hop on to help trainers.

End game content is supposed to be difficult. That's why dumbing it down doesn't sit right with me. Like getting leg armor through PvP or WvW requires time, effort, and ultimately learning a new gamemode/playstyle/build/etc. I don't like the default mode suddenly taking away the challenge. Though I know you can turn it off, principle doesn't sit right with me. You should learn from every attempt and try to progress farther every pull. There is now no more incentive to do that, and it fosters the completely wrong mindset for incoming raiders. Your reward for wiping should be the knowledge of what went wrong. Then you try to fix it or not do it again. Buffing on death defeats the learning process.

Also don't understand why just Wing 1 isn't Emboldened-enabled. Feels like an out to give people who don't want to put in the effort the ability to breeze through the harder raids, though I recognize I may just have my salty hat on for that opinion : p

Edited June 24, 2022 by Saharo Gravewind.5120

[Zok.4956]

22 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

As a long time hardcore WvWer and PvPer, I can tell you: Players are often easier than NPCs.

Sure, some players are. Especially the ones that just want to farm GoB or try doing dailies. 😉

Players in WvW/PvP can surprise you, but NPCs usually always do their same choreography/thingy/mechanic.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

End game content is supposed to be difficult. That's why dumbing it down doesn't sit right with me.

Its still is. It is just a cheaply implemented easy mode to learn the respective raid. WoW for example had easy mode for years. WoW raids on highest level sure are harder then GW2 ones.

2 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

just started a few months ago and have no issues. I do recognize I'm just one person (though I know others who took it up themselves just fine), but I am yet to hear someone critical of raids say that they have tried training groups, watching videos, reading walkthroughs, and are still facing a ridiculously high barrier to entry. You can get the kill in quite a few raid training groups on your first raid attempt ever. Been there, done that, seen it tons of times when I hop on to help trainers.

Reading 2+ hours of walkthroughs to use the lfg tool like a regular person seems like a barrier of entry to me. If I look into lfg there are more raid sellers then no requirement groups. I have read the walkthroughs, watched the videos for the relevant wing and joined training groups. Just to instantly get kittened over by a mechanic I barley noticed if at all. 7/10 would rather do Strikes.
Between a big frontloaded information dump you have to seek out, the infrequent no requirement/training groups, the bad tells GW 2 raids give you and the harsh punishment for failing a mechanic you just learning, I see why Raid aren't that popular. Sitting in discord with your guild eliminates most of these barriers, but I don't want to schedule my gaming time.

Will do Raids again when the changes go life. Only reading up on one wing, hopefully more groups and less punishment for failing a mechanics I'm learning is enough for me to try raids again. Because right no the hurdle to enjoyment ratio is just to high.

[Danikat.8537]

I think it's a good idea, because I've been in multiple raid training groups that fell apart because we'd make several attempts without getting a kill and most of the group ended up feeling like they were just wasting their time because they couldn't see any obvious improvement, so they just decided raids are not for them and stopped trying. This way they get a clear message that if they fail the next time will be easier, which I think will be an incentive to try again.

Of course I'm expecting it to need some balancing to hit the right point where it's not so easy with max stacks of the buff that you can simply ignore some mechanics, but as someone pointed out in another thread Anet have previously said that the average player does something like 10% of the damage the top players can do, so a 50% damage buff will mean they do 15% of top damage...that's not going to be a massive difference.

But even if it was it can't be easier than buying a raid clear, which is the current approach for a lot of people.

[Ashen.2907]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:54 PM, Justine.6351 said:

Time has a value.

True, but if quickly dying costs less time than is gained via the buffs...

[Obtena.7952]

I wonder how Anet will prevent people intentionally failing quickly to cheese the system to get to highest embolding level for easy lootz. Maybe they don't care about people doing that?

[Katary.7096]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I wonder how Anet will prevent people intentionally failing quickly to cheese the system to get to highest embolding level for easy lootz. Maybe they don't care about people doing that?

Grouch responded to a similar question on reddit by posting this: "When we're designing new features/content, we're always asking ourselves "how will players try to abuse/exploit this?". We don't always catch everything on first pass, but we do catch a lot. :)"

So they probably care, but we don't know which steps they have taken against unintentional use here.

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/vicgjf/arenanet_studio_update_june_2022_guildwars2com/idcbbzg/?context=3

[Saharo.5381]

 

15 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Its still is. It is just a cheaply implemented easy mode to learn the respective raid. WoW for example had easy mode for years. WoW raids on highest level sure are harder then GW2 ones.

Agree to disagree, then.  To me, a buff that gives 100% HP, 50% dmg, and 50% healing increase automatically disqualifies something from being classified as "difficult" altogether.

 

15 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Reading 2+ hours of walkthroughs to use the lfg tool like a regular person seems like a barrier of entry to me. If I look into lfg there are more raid sellers then no requirement groups. I have read the walkthroughs, watched the videos for the relevant wing and joined training groups. Just to instantly get kittened over by a mechanic I barley noticed if at all. 7/10 would rather do Strikes.
Between a big frontloaded information dump you have to seek out, the infrequent no requirement/training groups, the bad tells GW 2 raids give you and the harsh punishment for failing a mechanic you just learning, I see why Raid aren't that popular. Sitting in discord with your guild eliminates most of these barriers, but I don't want to schedule my gaming time.

Will do Raids again when the changes go life. Only reading up on one wing, hopefully more groups and less punishment for failing a mechanics I'm learning is enough for me to try raids again. Because right no the hurdle to enjoyment ratio is just to high.

 

You can cycle through a Mukluk get to the point video in 10 mins. A walkthrough read is like another 15 mins. It does not take 2+ hours to get familiar with basic mechanics. However, if you are the doing over seeing type of learner, I can understand the time requirement being higher.

WvW and PvP have barriers to entry as well, though at this point I think the assessment to look for is unduly high barrier to entry.

Is your issue getting shitted on by a wipe mechanic in a training group? That's normal. You're supposed to learn from that. Everyone wipes their first couple times. Imo the point of raids is the "harsh punishment for failing a mechanic." That's what makes it fun.

I see daily training group ads and LFGs, so I would not call them infrequent at all. I do agree that the raid selling groups need to be moved out of the actual raid LFG panel and into their own area though.

[SlayerXX.7138]

5 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Agree to disagree, then.  To me, a buff that gives 100% HP, 50% dmg, and 50% healing increase automatically disqualifies something from being classified as "difficult" altogether.

Of course the wing who gonna be in easy mode is not difficult, that what an easy mode is supposed to be. But that doesn't make Challenge mode suddenly easier. To have an easy mode is the first step to harder content.

5 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

 

You can cycle through a Mukluk get to the point video in 10 mins

Wing 1 4x 4 minutes =16 mins. And mukluk videos are as fast as they could be. But lfg is pretty barren so wing 1 may not be run anymore after that 16 mins. So if i want to join a random lfg the information i need beforehand 16 x 7 = almost 2 hours of dense information. Or I join a group and keep them waiting while i watch the 4 mins video + repeating the critical part.

5 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

WvW and PvP have barriers to entry as well, though at this point I think the assessment to look for is unduly high barrier to entry.

True. So have strikes too just less. WvW is easier I guess. PvP while arguably way more panful then raids at least give more agency to the player.

5 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Is your issue getting shitted on by a wipe mechanic in a training group?

No. It is not. I have some issue with not noticing mechanics in visual clutter. Like if I heal wing 1, 3 encounter(2nd boss)  on druid and i wasted celestial in normal dps phase and don't have the big heals to prolong break bar phase for the skip, that is on me. Getting teleported thanks to bad tells on vale guardian on the other hand... Anyways i'm willing to wipe on bosses, finding 9 other people who do is the hard part. Sure i could wait longer when people leave and eventually someone will come. Or i  just could do strikes if i have an itch for PVE. They are not even that much easier anyway.

I'm Patience, im willing to read/watch guides before hand and can down bosses as i have a couple of LI I got from carrying myself. It is just not worth the hurdles in the current state raids are. I normally play PVP so i don't have need for legendary armor and a reason to suffer through lfg for a couple of weeks till these problems disappear on their own.

[Taclism.2406]

as someone who did only once w1 (but did DE pre green zone nerf / scaling fix), and gave up on raids due to LI reqs in PUGs / didnt wanted to stare at lfg for hours / couldnt find a static, this might be the perfect solution to try again.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Saharo.5381]

10 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Wing 1 4x 4 minutes =16 mins. And mukluk videos are as fast as they could be. But lfg is pretty barren so wing 1 may not be run anymore after that 16 mins. So if i want to join a random lfg the information i need beforehand 16 x 7 = almost 2 hours of dense information. Or I join a group and keep them waiting while i watch the 4 mins video + repeating the critical part.

You definitely do not need to prep for all wings at once. An average of 16 minutes for each really isn't that bad, but understandably our value of time can be different.

11 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

True. So have strikes too just less. WvW is easier I guess. PvP while arguably way more panful then raids at least give more agency to the player.

I used to PvP a lot too. The way I see it, raids are easier to get started with in that for PvP, it's entirely on you to learn by your self without a training group. For a completely new player, working towards achieves for legendaries is ridiculously difficult. You'd need to spend more than 2 hours practicing. As you know, to unlock ranked play to get to achieves you need to spend hours and hours in unranked first. But I can see how trying & repeatedly failing in raids essentially nets you zero results, whereas in PvP 10-15 mins you get concrete results/feedback/at least a small reward and can restart fresh.

 

19 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

No. It is not. I have some issue with not noticing mechanics in visual clutter. Like if I heal wing 1, 3 encounter(2nd boss)  on druid and i wasted celestial in normal dps phase and don't have the big heals to prolong break bar phase for the skip, that is on me. Getting teleported thanks to bad tells on vale guardian on the other hand... Anyways i'm willing to wipe on bosses, finding 9 other people who do is the hard part. Sure i could wait longer when people leave and eventually someone will come. Or i  just could do strikes if i have an itch for PVE. They are not even that much easier anyway.

I'm Patience, im willing to read/watch guides before hand and can down bosses as i have a couple of LI I got from carrying myself. It is just not worth the hurdles in the current state raids are. I normally play PVP so i don't have need for legendary armor and a reason to suffer through lfg for a couple of weeks till these problems disappear on their own.

I highly recommend joining a training discord/group, many offer lots of different timeslots/accommodate different time zones, and you're guaranteed a group of ppl who are committed to failing and trying over and over in order to succeed. If you can't find good training/semi-exp PUGs on LFG when you do have time to play, that is valid problem I can't really argue with. Raiding across most other games also requires set group communication/time commitment though. 

I agree that the visuals on some mechanics are terrible, for VG blues I need to turn my graphics up to see them. My first raid attempt years ago, me and a few others could not see the blue aoes at all and other players could not understand what the hell was wrong with us. Didn't raid for like 5 years after that experience. Also things like hand spawn glitches on Deimos or bad boss pathing in various wings are definitely valid criticism that contribute to frustration of new players, but I'd rather they be actually fixed individually than blanketed under easy mode.

[SlayerXX.7138]

8 minutes ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

but I'd rather they be actually fixed individually than blanketed under easy mode.

So do I. Anet is sadly really cheap with dev hours if it doesn't contribute to new content. I for one would have liked an real easy mode + weekly achievement to funnel instead of the low effort buff we got. Or giving us an graphic option that makes clutter more bearable. But hey after 10 years Guild wars gets a contrast option for the courser. YAY!?

25 minutes ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

The way I see it, raids are easier to get started with in that for PvP, it's entirely on you to learn by your self without a training group. For a completely new player, working towards achieves for legendaries is ridiculously difficult. You'd need to spend more than 2 hours practicing. As you know, to unlock ranked play to get to achieves you need to spend hours and hours in unranked first.

Funny enough that is what I did. Between my 1 ascended weapon, the next precursor and my Legendary PVP stuff I had more legendary gear equipment then ascended ones on my main for the longest time.

14 minutes ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

I highly recommend joining a training discord/group, many offer lots of different timeslots/accommodate different time zones, and you're guaranteed a group of ppl who are committed to failing and trying over and over in order to succeed.

Absolutely true. I think I stated something similar previous. But the thing for me( and other people I assume) having to show up on a specific time doesn't appeal to me in games. Also talking to stranger on the internet isn't for everybody. But it is correct joining a training discord/guild does eliminate or reduce all hurdles I listed.