Can Mirage finally have its 2nd dodge back?

[Moody Soul.5617]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Honestly, even Vindicator needs 2 dodges.

Awful gameplay...

I actually agree with you nerf vindis dodges a bit so its not oppressive but definitely single dodge doesnt belong in the game.

 

54 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Vindi is in a much better shape than mirage regarding dodges. It has multiple ways to get vigor and endurance gain. Plus Vindi dodge is actually good. 

Having it better than garbage doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Sure the dodge is better in some ways, just nerf some numbers on it so it has to double dodge in pvp to have same out put of its singular dodge and nerf f2 and it would be fine.

[Salt Mode.3780]

11 minutes ago, Moody Soul.5617 said:

I actually agree with you nerf vindis dodges a bit so its not oppressive but definitely single dodge doesnt belong in the game.

 

Having it better than garbage doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Sure the dodge is better in some ways, just nerf some numbers on it so it has to double dodge in pvp to have same out put of its singular dodge and nerf f2 and it would be fine.

I mean this isn't a buff or nerf vindicator threat, it is a mirage having 2 dodge thread. Vindicator is an example of one dodge as an indication that mirage most likely will never have it's 2 dodge back, but in comparison Vindicator dodge is much more effective because the class was made with one dodge in mind rather then having 2 dodge in mind then taking one away.

[patton the great.7126]

You know. I decided to bite the bullet. Oh I changed my power mirage build. Now I 1 shot almost every single Cele I come across. I have to admit, if my combo and setup fail I'm dead in the water, but goodness is it fun af to play this style again. Mirage is the answer boys and girls.  

[Xaylin.1860]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Vindi is in a much better shape than mirage regarding dodges. It has multiple ways to get vigor and endurance gain. Plus Vindi dodge is actually good. 

I personally wouldn't say that Vindicator is in a better shape necessarily. But the second part is so true. Mirage not got Mesmer stripped from so much Vigor, it also relies on those pesky Mirrors to gain access to offense and defense. Vindicator on the hand can regenerate insanely fast and also got a pretty flexible set of skills with Alliance stance. It's not even a fair comparison.

The "you can act while dodging" doesn't make up for it. Because realistically, there aren't many scenarios where this actually matters. In most situations the cast time could also be covered by other effects like Distortion, Aegis or Stability - or just good awareness and positioning.

[Waffles.5632]

3 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I personally wouldn't say that Vindicator is in a better shape necessarily. But the second part is so true. Mirage not got Mesmer stripped from so much Vigor, it also relies on those pesky Mirrors to gain access to offense and defense. Vindicator on the hand can regenerate insanely fast and also got a pretty flexible set of skills with Alliance stance. It's not even a fair comparison.

The "you can act while dodging" doesn't make up for it. Because realistically, there aren't many scenarios where this actually matters. In most situations the cast time could also be covered by other effects like Distortion, Aegis or Stability - or just good awareness and positioning.

Mirage Cloak isn't a boon so it can't be boon stripped like Aegis and Stab. Dodges also come up significantly faster than any weapon/utility skill providing aegis, distortion, or stab as well.

There's a lot of hidden nuance to Mirage Cloak, it is a simple thing yes, to act while dodging, but no other class can do that. It is something completely unique to Mirage, and it can be used very creatively and to great effect.

Also, the reverse is true, in most cases you can Mirage Cloak in place of X/Y/Z and thus, save X/Y/Z for later. You can use multiple Mirage Cloaks in a ~30 sec fight, but only one distortion, so in PvP I can make a choice to Mirage Cloak initial skirmish, and save distortion for next team fight or risky situation, etc. It's a choice that isn't there otherwise.

 

Furthermore, dueling trait feeds into MC spam with clone creation on dodge. If you're on sword, you can dodge, ambush, have 2 clones immediately, and then distortion, which, if you are traited into desert distortion, you now can do another sword ambush, creating another clone, and have 2 mirrors up. 

All of this happens in ~2seconds, if you have infinite horizon, your clones are also performing ambushes.

If you are traited for self-deception, at any point during the above combo after you have 1 clone up, you can jaunt right on top of the enemy, creating another clone. You can jaunt into your mirrors as well.

None of this can be countered, because throughout the whole time you are either under your Mirage Cloak, or your distortion will be up, and that gives you time to go into your mirrors ( though mirrors are random, that is true )

Rather, the counter is just wait, or exit the area/kite the mesmer, but sword 1 is a leap and daze, sword 3 is swap/imob, and mesmer in general is one of the best harassers in the game so GL trying to play the waiting/space game against them imo. There's a lot that can happen in between. You say good awareness and spacing, and I agree, but it's like.. you have to assume your opponent also has good awareness and spacing too.

I realize not all of this is intuitive per se, but that doesn't mean it's not there. You have absolute freedom as a Mirage to really mix stuff up. The potential is bonkers, and it's all tied to Mirage Cloak. That and infinite horizon are the Mirage's identity 100% IMO.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

31 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Mirage Cloak isn't a boon so it can't be boon stripped like Aegis and Stab. Dodges also come up significantly faster than any weapon/utility skill providing aegis, distortion, or stab as well.

There's a lot of hidden nuance to Mirage Cloak, it is a simple thing yes, to act while dodging, but no other class can do that. It is something completely unique to Mirage, and it can be used very creatively and to great effect.

Also, the reverse is true, in most cases you can Mirage Cloak in place of X/Y/Z and thus, save X/Y/Z for later. You can use multiple Mirage Cloaks in a ~30 sec fight, but only one distortion, so in PvP I can make a choice to Mirage Cloak initial skirmish, and save distortion for next team fight or risky situation, etc. It's a choice that isn't there otherwise.

 

Furthermore, dueling trait feeds into MC spam with clone creation on dodge. If you're on sword, you can dodge, ambush, have 2 clones immediately, and then distortion, which, if you are traited into desert distortion, you now can do another sword ambush, creating another clone, and have 2 mirrors up. 

All of this happens in ~2seconds, if you have infinite horizon, your clones are also performing ambushes.

If you are traited for self-deception, at any point during the above combo after you have 1 clone up, you can jaunt right on top of the enemy, creating another clone. You can jaunt into your mirrors as well.

None of this can be countered, because throughout the whole time you are either under your Mirage Cloak, or your distortion will be up, and that gives you time to go into your mirrors ( though mirrors are random, that is true )

Rather, the counter is just wait, or exit the area/kite the mesmer, but sword 1 is a leap and daze, sword 3 is swap/imob, and mesmer in general is one of the best harassers in the game so GL trying to play the waiting/space game against them imo. There's a lot that can happen in between. You say good awareness and spacing, and I agree, but it's like.. you have to assume your opponent also has good awareness and spacing too.

I realize not all of this is intuitive per se, but that doesn't mean it's not there. You have absolute freedom as a Mirage to really mix stuff up. The potential is bonkers, and it's all tied to Mirage Cloak. That and infinite horizon are the Mirage's identity 100% IMO.

 

That's a lot of words. 

Mirage cloak is not as good as people make it. First of all the movement mirage cloak provided is bad, worse than a regular dodge by far.  MC doesn't cover any cast time. If you time it right you'll rupt everything between when MC ends and when cast time ends. 

Mirrors are and always were garbage not only will you run from mirror to mirror because their life is short and you'll do little to nothing while you're picking them, but they also make your movement predictable. 

To add to all these vigor was nerfed hard. 1vigor trait on other professions provided the same amount 3 whole traits dedicated to vigor on Mirage. 

Wish all mirages played so poorly as your awesome plan.

[phokus.8934]

ANet screwed up by messing with core gameplay functionality.  At this point I sincerely doubt they will revert the change in pvp/wvw even though it needs to be.

[Waffles.5632]

47 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

That's a lot of words. (<-- personal attack )

Mirage cloak is not as good as people make it. (<---hyperbole) First of all the movement mirage cloak provided is bad, worse than a regular dodge by far.  MC doesn't cover any cast time. If you time it right you'll rupt everything between when MC ends and when cast time ends. 

Mirrors are and always were garbage not only will you run from mirror to mirror because their life is short and you'll do little to nothing while you're picking them, but they also make your movement predictable. 

To add to all these vigor was nerfed hard. 1vigor trait on other professions provided the same amount 3 whole traits dedicated to vigor on Mirage. 

Wish all mirages played so poorly as your awesome plan.

(^^^ spam/filler/doesn't make sense)

 

I'll address your first point below though

Not as good as people make it? It is literally the best dodge in the game. That is a fact not an opinion, there is no other dodge that mechanically even comes close, and it's bad because you don't move as much during a regular dodge? You don't have to move that's the whole point lol, the Mirage literally gets a 3 count ammo skill called Jaunt. That is your movement. 

Mirage Cloak is so good in fact that the comparisons are some of the strongest boons and abilities in the entire game. Stability, Aegis, Distortion. When a dodge is on par with distortion, but you say it isn't "as good as people say it is" lmfaooooooo come on man.

Do you even play Mirage? lol

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

You don't have to move that's the whole point lol, the Mirage literally gets a 3 count ammo skill called Jaunt. That is your movement. 
Do you even play Mirage? lol

Jaunt is 2, not 3 for pvp/wvw.

[Waffles.5632]

10 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Jaunt is 2, not 3 for pvp/wvw.

 I realize you're trying to "get" me but this is such a poor attempt lmfao my goodness what is this even.
 

[phokus.8934]

11 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 I realize you're trying to "get" me but this is such a poor attempt lmfao my goodness what is this even.
 

You seem a bit unhinged.  I just corrected you in such a benign way but the fact that you think I'm out to get you... Get a grip, bud.

[Waffles.5632]

18 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

You seem a bit unhinged.  I just corrected you in such a benign way but the fact that you think I'm out to get you... Get a grip, bud.

I'm not unhinged, that's a weird word to use. I don't think an unhinged person could be coherent enough to type on an online forum and respond clearly. Another personal attack. You did not correct me because the topic was not how much ammo jaunt has.

Jaunt was released with  3 ammo, that is the default, the baseline. It then gets adjusted for pvp and wvw. You would not say Headbutt for berserker does 0 damage. Nobody would say that. It does 0 damage in pvp/wvw, because it is adjusted, but headbutt is a high damage CC skill by default. Numbers don't change mechanics, jaunt is a movement skill even if it had 1 ammo. Efficacy of a skill and design of a skill are two different things.

 

In case it is still not clear :

The context was lack of movement for Mirage Cloak, to which Mirage gets several movement skills in compensation, both in ambushes and utility, that all have movement associated with them. It is a highly unfair criticism to suggest that Mirage Cloak offering less movement than a regular dodge, somehow makes it worse. Any class would love to swap their regular dodge with Mirage Cloak if given the chance and that is an absolute fact. I have always given the example of 100b warrior having Mirage Cloak. Your imagination can take you from there.

 

 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

I'll address your first point below though

Not as good as people make it? It is literally the best dodge in the game. That is a fact not an opinion, there is no other dodge that mechanically even comes close, and it's bad because you don't move as much during a regular dodge? You don't have to move that's the whole point lol, the Mirage literally gets a 3 count ammo skill called Jaunt. That is your movement. 

Mirage Cloak is so good in fact that the comparisons are some of the strongest boons and abilities in the entire game. Stability, Aegis, Distortion. When a dodge is on par with distortion, but you say it isn't "as good as people say it is" lmfaooooooo come on man.

Do you even play Mirage? lol

 

 

 

 

Naa, not even close. Vindi dodge is way better offensively. Daredevil dash dodge is way better defensively. 

Of course you have to move, this game is all about movement.

Jaunt range like phokus pointed out is 2 ammo and is pathetic movement wise, 450 range is barely out of melee range and depending on the position can't even get you out of some aoe's. 

MC is not on par with distortion, distortion is an invuln. MC is an evade. 

[Waffles.5632]

32 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I do not play Mirage.

Thank you for answering my question. 🙂

[phokus.8934]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Naa, not even close. Vindi dodge is way better offensively. Daredevil dash dodge is way better defensively. 

Of course you have to move, this game is all about movement.

Jaunt range like phokus pointed out is 2 ammo and is pathetic movement wise, 450 range is barely out of melee range and depending on the position can't even get you out of some aoe's. 

MC is not on par with distortion, distortion is an invuln. MC is an evade. 

He's not really making any sense.  How Mirage Cloak functions makes it the best dodge in the game without a doubt.  However, as you pointed out, Vigor application has been nerfed when Mirage had two dodges in pvp/wvw.  When they changed it to one dodge, Vigor uptime was not reverted and remained the same.  The whole context of this topic is based around giving Mirage back its two dodges so any mention of Jaunt with 3 charges doesn't make sense.

Jaunt was originally 400 when it had 3 charges and that was still bad.  There needs to be a serious undo to the Mirage nerfs that it suffered over the years.

[Xaylin.1860]

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Mirage Cloak isn't a boon so it can't be boon stripped like Aegis and Stab. Dodges also come up significantly faster than any weapon/utility skill providing aegis, distortion, or stab as well.

Mirage Cloak not being a boon is a mostly virtual advantage over Aegis or Stability at best. First, there are plenty sources of Aegis and Stability that instant. They neither require more input, nor do they have an delay. Second, being unstrippable would only be a benefit if it's realistic to counter it's alternatives.

Now, if you see an enemy preparing an attack that you want to counter, either by interrupting or killing them to totally nullify its effect by an offensive action (defensive actions don't matter in this discussion). Your opponent has to: Recognize the action, identify Stab/Aegis, counter Stab/Aegis and THEN interrupt the action. Unless we are talking about a very long cast time, for example Overloads, this will very unlikely happen. Mesmer barely have any skills with cast-times that longer. Neither are there that many options to take two counter-actions. In most scenarios active and offensive counter-measures are too slow. Which means that MC is rarely as valuable as it reads on paper. It is the most versatile dodge, yes. But it is frequently overvalued. It doesn't matter for gameplay outcome that it is unique to Mirage. Also, people neglect the trade-off of using your main defense as offense. 

Now, this is a different topic in large scale fights. Here I can agree with you that Aegis and Stability don't compare. However, how many power plays can a Mirage make with an action covered with MC via dodge in this case to begin with?

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Furthermore, dueling trait feeds into MC spam with clone creation on dodge. If you're on sword, you can dodge, ambush, have 2 clones immediately, and then distortion, which, if you are traited into desert distortion, you now can do another sword ambush, creating another clone, and have 2 mirrors up. 

I've been discussing "Mirage Dodge" which clearly only refers to MC on Dodge. Mirrors (and Deceptions) are problematic due to a variety of reasons. But it is not directly related to this specific topic. Because those sources of MC exist regardless.

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

All of this happens in ~2seconds, if you have infinite horizon, your clones are also performing ambushes.

Totally irrelevant when comparing MC to Aegis or Stab as possible option to cover your own actions and casts. It's like saying "I can't block Explosive Entrance because the Engineer got Stability."

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

If you are traited for self-deception, at any point during the above combo after you have 1 clone up, you can jaunt right on top of the enemy, creating another clone. You can jaunt into your mirrors as well.

Again, unrelated to the dodge. Just displays how flawed the design with Mirrors and Deceptions is.

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

None of this can be countered, because throughout the whole time you are either under your Mirage Cloak, or your distortion will be up, and that gives you time to go into your mirrors ( though mirrors are random, that is true )

Untrue. Offensive actions won't work. Defensive actions do work. And again: I'd argue that similar outcomes could be achieved via using Stab or Aegis in many scenarios while they might not be as universal as MC on dodge.

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Rather, the counter is just wait...

Ah yes. How much MC via dodge does Mirage get per minute again? And how long does it last?

 

6 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

You have absolute freedom as a Mirage to really mix stuff up. The potential is bonkers, and it's all tied to Mirage Cloak. That and infinite horizon are the Mirage's identity 100% IMO.

Now, here I completely agree. But again: This is not related to MC on dodge. It just isn't. I don't want to argue semantics here. But this is very important to distinguish. The dodge itself mathematically doesn't matter considering all sources of MC. It would be baseline for Mirage, yes. It would be versatile, yes. But it's not the thing that made Mirage oppressive.

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

The context was lack of movement for Mirage Cloak, to which Mirage gets several movement skills in compensation, both in ambushes and utility, that all have movement associated with them. It is a highly unfair criticism to suggest that Mirage Cloak offering less movement than a regular dodge, somehow makes it worse

No it's not when it comes to mobility. Most Mesmers basically were forced to slot Blink by default anyay. You might have a (weak) argument with Jaunt but it has been nerfed into oblivion in competitve modes. What's the gain here?

Now, with Deceptions you do have a point when it comes to Mirrors and MC. However, again, this can hardly be a justication for removing a dodge (or Endurance regen that is) unless you expect ALL Mirages to run Deception. Great design. So many builds to choose from. Much wow.

A compensation for lack in movement could be power. Which MC does provide. But dodging is so essential in GW2 that it hardly makes up for that gain in power and flexibility.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[Waffles.5632]

Quote

Mirage Cloak not being a boon is a mostly virtual advantage over Aegis or Stability at best. First, there are plenty sources of Aegis and Stability that instant. They neither require more input, nor do they have an delay. Second, being unstrippable would only be a benefit if it's realistic to counter it's alternatives.

You can't pick and choose what matters. The fact is you can't strip MC, but you can strip aegis and stab. That gives the advantage of defensiveness to MC when comparing. It's a bit frustrating when boonstrip is legit a thing in gw2, yet when comparing boons to MC for defensive purposes, now boonstrip isn't reliable, so that comparison isn't valid.

No it still is. Is it the most important factor? No. I never said that. But it is a factor to consider. If a guardian has aegis, you can open up with a boonstrip, like GS 4 on Mesmer for example.

 

Quote

 

Now, if you see an enemy preparing an attack that you want to counter, either by interrupting or killing them to totally nullify its effect by an offensive action (defensive actions don't matter in this discussion). Your opponent has to: Recognize the action, identify Stab/Aegis, counter Stab/Aegis and THEN interrupt the action. Unless we are talking about a very long cast time, for example Overloads, this will very unlikely happen. Mesmer barely have any skills with cast-times that longer. Neither are there that many options to take two counter-actions. In most scenarios active and offensive counter-measures are too slow. Which means that MC is rarely as valuable as it reads on paper. It is the most versatile dodge, yes. But it is frequently overvalued. It doesn't matter for gameplay outcome that it is unique to Mirage. Also, people neglect the trade-off of using your main defense as offense. 

Now, this is a different topic in large scale fights. Here I can agree with you that Aegis and Stability don't compare. However, how many power plays can a Mirage make with an action covered with MC to begin with?

 

So Precasting defensive boons aren't a thing? You are talking about only one strategy and then expanding that oh since MC isn't as useful here, it's not useful everywhere else. And once again, you just choosing what does and doesn't matter. You're looking at things in such a vacuum here. How is it Mirage has something that no other class can even replicate, and yet it doesn't matter for gameplay outcome...??? lol

 

 

Quote

Totally irrelevant when comparing MC to Aegis or Stab as possible option to cover your own actions and casts. It's like saying "I can't block Explosive Entrance because the Engineer got Stability."

You can cover your actions with clone ambushes, sword ambush specifically can have your clone interrupting an attack that would have otherwise CC'd you, allowing you to finish your cast/do whatever it is you were doing. Once again, you cannot just look at things in a vacuum and dismiss everything else. Offense and Defense is inherent to MC, they ambush while they are cloaked I.E they can always attack while evading.

 

Quote

Ah yes. How much MC via dodge does Mirage get per minute again? And how long does it last?

Once again another vacuum where you just assume the Mesmer won't wait, and so if both players now decide to wait, who has better ranged weapon/harass? The list goes on, you can't argue and debate about player skill like waiting, when again, it should be assumed that both players know and have mastered the basics of pvp that transcend all games, waiting, spacing, mind games, set ups, feints, etc etc, which Mirage Cloak is king of once again because of the freedom to dodge whenever you want.

 

Quote

Now, here I completely agree. But again: This is not related to MC on dodge. It just isn't. I don't want to argue semantics here. But this is very important to distinguish. The dodge itself mathematically doesn't matter considering all sources of MC. It would be baseline for Mirage, yes. It would be versatile, yes. But it's not the thing that made Mirage oppressive.

I suggest reading the first 2 replies of this very thread tbh. Mirage is never getting it's second dodge back IMO.

Anyways, yes we can disagree on some smaller points, but main point still stands. MC is the best dodge, there is no comparison, and that's not hyping it, or overstating it's value, it's precisely what it says. There is never any situation where you are unable to MC. MC even forgives you if you fail to dodge, I.E if you get CC'd, you can still evade the burst with MC. There are tons of situations where doing any other dodge in the game, interrupts the action you very much want to be doing.
 

Quote

 

No it's not when it comes to mobility. Most Mesmers basically were forced to slot Blink by default anyay. You might have a (weak) argument with Jaunt but it has been nerfed into oblivion in competitve modes. What's the gain here?

Now, with Deceptions you do have a point when it comes to Mirrors and MC. However, again, this can hardly be a justication for removing a dodge (or Endurance regen that is) unless you expect ALL Mirages to run Deception. Great design. So many builds to choose from. Much wow.

A compensation for lack in movement could be power. Which MC does provide. But dodging is so essential in GW2 that it hardly makes up for that gain in power and flexibility.

 

That is the nature of blink, not anything else, and jaunt has not been nerfed into oblivion, my goodness lol.

Anyways, thieves in pvp always take SS, and even if both blink and SS got nerfed tomorrow, a lot of ppl still would take them because those skills will always be that good. Any kind of free range teleport offers tremendous advantages on certain pvp maps, this has nothing to do with blink, but the mechanical advantage of teleporting vs having to run/re-position normally.

This is first distinction between all classes in pvp, as some have access to ports, while others do not, and for some maps, that really matters. The reason ports are taken is because of exactly this, and they will always be forever taken in every video game that has this interaction, because of exactly this. Being able to teleport is always better than just running. If every class had a blink, every pvper would be using it.

As for self-deception, Anet crams game mode specific traits all the time, self-deception is the pvp trait for mirage, I am sorry if you disagree with that, but that isn't even on me, that is gw2 design balance for past ~3yrs or so. The other two clearly strike me as open world, and condi dps options in regards to that first tier traitlines. Renewing Oasis, and Riddle of Sand.  I could be wrong on this however, just my 2c.

And I mean, look yeah, traits could use some buffs, I'm not against that, my gain is realistic feedback, and treating MC for what it is, not downplaying it as some mid tier level dodge. If anything MC could be left alone as is, there are a lot of other ways to buff Mirage, or Mes in general w/o messing with MC or giving back second dodge.

The one change I would like to see most honestly is giving MC back it's 1second duration, that alone would go a long way because those .25 extra secs for each MC instance will add up over the course of a fight.

[Veprovina.4876]

19 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Vindi is in a much better shape than mirage regarding dodges. It has multiple ways to get vigor and endurance gain. Plus Vindi dodge is actually good. 

True but all that accomplishes is you having to manually press buttons to get the second dodge... 

If they gave vindi 2 dodges and no endurance regeneration it would essentially be the same thing except way more fluid...

 

But yes, vindi dodge is great, and even if clunky, the endurance regens and F2 or whatever make the one dodge passable.

 

Mirage doesn't have that luxury.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again ill state the difference between mirage dodge vs normal dodge. 

Normal dodge will not get hindered by movement/mobility like chill/slow, the distance is still made.

MC trades that distance for being able to dodge while CC, if you are stunned/dazed/feared/etc you cannot perform any offensive actions unless you break out of it. At the same time it is susceptible to chill/slow and NO distance.

 

I dont expect for mirage to ever get the 2nd dodge back however this does not justify that they dont return the stuff that was nerfed prior to when we had both our dodges.

iWarlock is complete dog, the only use it had prior to nerf was that it generates 2 clones. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Nope

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

17 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Thank you for answering my question. 🙂

Of course I do not, I was even the one that said jaunt has 3 ammo. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Look for the sake of argument lets just all agree that anet are incompetent and cannot balance their professions/espec. Whoever worked on them are long gone and now have new staff members who dont know how the profession/espec work and probably got bullied to the breaking point to implement these changes.

 

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

You can't pick and choose what matters. The fact is you can't strip MC, but you can strip aegis and stab. That gives the advantage of defensiveness to MC when comparing. It's a bit frustrating when boonstrip is legit a thing in gw2, yet when comparing boons to MC for defensive purposes, now boonstrip isn't reliable, so that comparison isn't valid.

I didn't choose for it not to matter. I've described how a specific feature of Mirage dodge, the "invulnerability and being able to act" via Mirage Cloak doesn't matter in specific gameplay scenarios people have been complaining about. 

 

16 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

No it still is. Is it the most important factor? No. I never said that. But it is a factor to consider. If a guardian has aegis, you can open up with a boonstrip, like GS 4 on Mesmer for example.

Inaccurate comparison or at least not sufficient.

People complain about Mirages performing actions "while Doging". The question is, could you replicate this with similar effects? And the answer is yes. Let's imagine your scenarios a bit more specifically:

A DH wants to cast LB#5 and has Aegis. Mirage uses GS#4. Now you've got less than 0.25s left to interrupt the DH via MoD (1s vs. 0.75 cast time plus reaction time you need to identify the LB#5). You probably won't be able to counter the DH if he got Aegis up. You will most certainly won't counter him if he also got Stability but this is close to irrelevant in this scenario. But still important to note.

Let's switch this around: Mirage uses Mirage Dodge and casts Vortex. The DH realizes and wants to counter with LB#3 (1 vs. 0.75 cast time). But he can't because of Mirage Cloak.

Now, what's the difference here? The difference is that the cast covered by Aegis could theoretically be counterplayed while the the one covered by MC can't. Which makes MC the more powerful effect, duh. However, the difference in actual outcome is close to zero from an offensive counterplay perspective.

So again: I didn't randomly choose what matters overall. I simply described how MC, more specifically MC on Dodge is frequently overvalued from a specific perspective. That's all. I didn't say it's bad. Nor did I deny any other benefits. 

Now, since people brought up dodging while CC: This most certainly is powerful. But this mostly makes the class forgiving. Not necessarily more powerful. Because yet again: You still can't act if still stunned. And yet again: Similar things can be done in specific scenarios. For example an F3 Aegis on Guard eats just as much damage from a SB Maul as a MC dodge does. 

16 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

As for self-deception, Anet crams game mode specific traits all the time, self-deception is the pvp trait for mirage, I am sorry if you disagree with that, but that isn't even on me, that is gw2 design balance for past ~3yrs or so.

How is this specific to PvP? PvE might be more forgiving. Still, a core aspect of Mirage is gated behind Utility skills. Actually, it's two. Because we can only trigger Ambushs via MC. It would be less problematic if this wasn't the case but it is.

16 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Anyways, yes we can disagree on some smaller points, but main point still stands. MC is the best dodge, there is no comparison, and that's not hyping it, or overstating it's value, it's precisely what it says.

I agree that MC on dodge is the most flexible dodge. Which makes it powerful but not necessarily most powerful in any scenario. Where I disagree: it does matter what it's valued or if it wasvalued too high when talking about whether 1 or 2 dodges were acceptable. It also matters whether there are additional sources of MC that could be shaved in favor for MC on dodge. Because it does matter how often you can perform it. Also, DrD gets an extra dodge and Endurance Thief which is vastly superior to measly Vigor via Shatter. Vindicator also gets great options to regenerate (and didn't get the already superior core options nerfed like Mesmer). Accessibility matters.

 

16 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

That is the nature of blink, not anything else, and jaunt has not been nerfed into oblivion, my goodness lol.

Way to ignore my point. So let's rephrase. Mirage offers additional options for mobility. But they don't compensate - as you suggested - for certain disadvantages of Mirage - because they are mostly substitutes for Blink. Which means that they don't add mobility when comparing core vs. Mirage. Because in practice, you can't afford 3 ports on your bar.

I guess we disagree on Jaunt then. To me, it has become way less valuable in PvP after all those nerfs. And for PvE it didn't matter to me from the start.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[scerevisiae.1972]

i think one could justify 2 dodges also in wvw, but what might be better is just make it 1 dodge everywhere, but add a unique spec mechanic whereby endurance regen rate is 1.5x normal or dodging procs vigour and vigour is enhanced, something like that.

[Waffles.5632]

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I didn't choose for it not to matter. I've described how a specific feature of Mirage dodge, the "invulnerability and being able to act" via Mirage Cloak doesn't matter in specific gameplay scenarios people have been complaining about.

Okay I got you I think, but I am saying for every scenario with Mirage, you have to factor both offense and defense because Mirage always gets to do both where as every other class has to choose one or the other usually, with some exceptions naturally.

 

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

 

 

Inaccurate comparison or at least not sufficient.

People complain about Mirages performing actions "while Doging". The question is, could you replicate this with similar effects? And the answer is yes. Let's imagine your scenarios a bit more specifically:

A DH wants to cast LB#5 and has Aegis. Mirage uses GS#4. Now you've got less than 0.25s left to interrupt the DH via MoD (1s vs. 0.75 cast time plus reaction time you need to identify the LB#5). You probably won't be able to counter the DH if he got Aegis up. You will most certainly won't counter him if he also got Stability but this is close to irrelevant in this scenario. But still important to note.

Let's switch this around: Mirage uses Mirage Dodge and casts Vortex. The DH realizes and wants to counter with LB#3 (1 vs. 0.75 cast time). But he can't because of Mirage Cloak.

Now, what's the difference here? The difference is that the cast covered by Aegis could theoretically be counterplayed while the the one covered by MC can't. Which makes MC the more powerful effect, duh. However, the difference in actual outcome is close to zero from an offensive counterplay perspective.

 

It is completely accurate and sufficient. As a Mirage against guardian, if aegis is up, GS 4 is an option as an opener, while pistol 5 is not.

Where as, let's say on a stealthed thief vs mirage, the mirage can literally just wait for thief opener and it doesnt even matter if CC lands, the mirage cloak cannot be stopped. So the thief has to anticipate when the Mirage is going to, if they are even going to MC by either throwing out a low initiative bait ability, or some other tactic to delay burst until after MC. They cannot just wait forever since stealth has a limit.

Now, I am not talking about guard vs mes, and thief vs mes in general, I am explaining the concept of how aegis can in fact be countered, and MC cannot in similar and common pvp scenarios, at least not directly. Yes, ofc, "Waiting" is always an option. But waiting isn't a mechanic of the game. It's a mechanic of players. So I am comparing game mechanics vs game mechanics, which often gets conflated with game mechanics vs player mechanics. apples to oranges.

Lastly I would argue that again, MC will come up faster than whatever ability or trait was used to proc aegis. That is value that needs to be factored in. I usually get around 3-4 Mirage Dodges during a ~20 sec fight. Idk specifics but I will keep an eye out going forward, but I feel I'm at least in the ballpark. So the difference in outcome being, MC Dodge is again better because it is a resource not a skill or trait.

I will say though, let's both avoid forum pvp scenarios for now just because there is always a lot to go over, and if I am being honest, I do think on paper/in theory, Mirage wins every time because of how it can disrupt every other class, while still evading and attacking. Of course this by no way means that reality matches theory, we are talking about perfect play with perfect timing and reflexes, which isn't realistic, but fun to think about when figuring out a specs potential. This is my opinion though, I am not claiming it as fact, and tbh I mean it's gw2 pvp we all have our favorites lol.

 

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I agree that MC on dodge is the most flexible dodge. Which makes it powerful but not necessarily most powerful in any scenario. Where I disagree: it does matter what it's valued or if it wasvalued too high when talking about whether 1 or 2 dodges were acceptable. It also matters whether there are additional sources of MC that could be shaved in favor for MC on dodge. Because it does matter how often you can perform it. Also, DrD gets an extra dodge and Endurance Thief which is vastly superior to measly Vigor via Shatter. Vindicator also gets great options to regenerate (and didn't get the already superior core options nerfed like Mesmer). Accessibility matters.

We agree yes, there was just a misunderstanding of some words. I agree if we want to break down the dodges into categories, it would go something like this also :

Most Flexibile/Versatile : Mirage Cloak

Strongest/Highest Damage : Vindi death drop

etc etc, I can see those points as being fair when you're looking at it with those lenses. I would like to know how you place the dodges as well if that is okay, since I know vindi gets 3 different versions, for Mirages I feel there's only infinite horizon now lol I can't think of any builds that use the other two traits, but I don't wvw so maybe there's a roamer spec or something.

 

I can also see more where you're coming from Too. I get that. I am thinking, AFAIK Endurance is 100, two bars of 50. Mirage has one bar of 50. So I always thought putting it at 40, and slightly bumping/removing vigor nerfs, would go a long way into making Mirage Cloak Dodge come up faster without being so oppressive as having two dodges, because that is how I feel. MC is too powerful to have two dodges in pvp.

For WvW I think it needs two dodges, but then you have to factor in roaming and such so, I mean idk that just sounds like a balance nightmare already to me.

 

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Way to ignore my point. So let's rephrase. Mirage offers additional options for mobility. But they don't compensate - as you suggested - for certain disadvantages of Mirage - because they are mostly substitutes for Blink. Which means that they don't add mobility when comparing core vs. Mirage. Because in practice, you can't afford 3 ports on your bar.

I guess we disagree on Jaunt then. To me, it has become way less valuable in PvP after all those nerfs. And for PvE it didn't matter to me from the start.

We do disagree because, at least for me, I view Mirage Mobility as in addition to blink, not as a substitute.

In pvp I run Illusionary Ambush, Blink, Jaunt. Last utitlity I swap as needed, sometimes I go decoy, mantra of distraction, etc. Plenty of times where I can jaunt, blink, or IA out of being CC'd, thus saving my dodge, and if those skills are down, usually my dodge is up, etc. I do this, and have been doing this all the time. I am gold 3/plat 1 so there is the practice.

I would definitely agree however, that above plat 1, mechanics start to eat mirage alive, with how much sustain, CC, and AOE some classes have now, and that is the trade off for Mirage, next to zero sustain, get hit and die, evade and live lol. It would be foolish of me to say that realistically Mirage, or any Mesmer spec outside Virtu atm is meta, but 3 ports is definitely viable, I have been doing it.

My super hot take idea is get rid of pvp adjustments entirely. Drop amulets, just let people choose their own stat allocation in pvp, and make the open world numbers the new "pvp" numbers. Now every class is OP as all kitten, Mirage has 2 dodges again, and if it turns out super super bad, just say my b and go back to way things were before nbd LOL.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Waffles.5632