"Firebrand got buffed AGAIN !!!!11eleven..." where?

[Solstice.5790]

Reading through the patch notes and the reactions to them, as probably a lot of us did, I've noticed several people saying that the June 28th patch was yet another buff to the already and always overpowered Firebrand elite spec.

The changes were:

Guardian

Valor

• Strength in Numbers: This trait has been reworked. It now grants protection to allies while in combat, applying protection with a 3-second duration on a 10-second interval.

Radiance

• Amplified Wrath: Burning damage increase reduced from 15% to 10% in PvE only.
• Perfect Inscriptions: No longer grants signet passive effects to allies when activated. Instead, signets continue to provide their passive effects while recharging.

Signets

• Signet of Resolve: Decreased the passive effect's internal cooldown from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. This effect will now protect the player from an incoming condition by immediately removing it, and then it begins its internal cooldown. The active effect now additionally removes two conditions from the player.
• Signet of Mercy: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 50 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Wrath: Immobile duration increased from 3 seconds to 6 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Courage: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. Active effect radius reduced from 1,200 to 600. Now heals for a smaller amount in five small channeled heal pulses, followed by one large final heal. Now also channels protection, resolution, and stability on allies in the radius. Does not apply stability in PvP or WvW.

Firebrand

• Mantra of Solace: This skill now grants aegis instead of protection and resolution in PvP and WvW.

 

Considering that Valor isn't used in any Spec, Signets only in limited situations where they are not even affected by the patch (Mercy in WvW, noone uses Courage because you need other elites...), and Mantra of Solace is just returned to its former function (in PvP/WVW gamemodes only), I find it really hard to understand where the feeling of "buffs" is coming from.

I'm not saying those claims are unjustified, but can someone please explain the reasons for calling this a buff? Preferably without turning the whole thing into a fight club?

[Kuya.6495]

It's just rabid guardian hate, like always.

 

HT CM attempts have been stacking 3-4 scourges and virtuosos but people just keep memeing about firebrand 10 man stacks for some reason. 

[Massimoni.9453]

Those are just people who never even tried guardian but following what others tell them mindlessly. They'd still call guard op if it did 2k DPS (which we are getting to slowly but surely after this massive DPS loss this "balance" patch). Try saying anything pro-guardian outside of this subforum and you will farm "confused" reactions by people who would literally compete with monkeys in quite a few aspects 😉

 

OP already stated that the changes aren't buffs because they are not practical.

Valor: Still bad traitline and therefore not used. Changing one trait to 60% protection uptime (maxed boon duration, as HFB would be the only place this would make ANY sense) won't make builds switch over -> worthless change

Radiance: Amplified Wrath combined with the nerf of Ranger spirits (here: Sun spirit, which Firebrand profited the most of) absolutely tanks the already not awesome DPS of firebrands due to burning clearly being its top damage source (>80%) and directly taking away from that, well...

Signet "buffs": Losing signet share is actually quite the nerf for advanced groups. The other changes still don't make signets worthwhile taking or using their actives in any but extremely rare occasions, as it is always accompanied by massive damage losses

Mantra of solace: The only thing even remotely deserving to be called a buff here imo. As stated, this restores the mantra back to what it was before a previous update, albeit ONLY IN COMPETITIVE MODES (and at least in PvP AFAIK firebrand is trash so this might at least help it a little bit)

Edited June 29, 2022 by Massimoni.9453

[Luna.6203]

It's really funny how people hate firebrand on forum but love them in group. Hate is so strong that even when patch nerf firebrand people see buff.

LFG is still filled with LF qfb /hfb. 🤨 Yet! Mechanist is already better support. And drood and tempest seem really good as well now. Time will tell but yesterday i was doing t4/recs daily with drood heal and its was great. Anyway i swapped to my ritualist quick dps and there fireband was nerfed even though without arcdps i coudnt tell exactlly . But as long as i can provide quickness nobody probably cares about +-few% dps. And for pure dps i rather relog to virtuoso anyway. Since i really dislike willbeder in pve.

So you don't necessarily need firebrand.. All mechanist, drood and tempest are viable. And that good thing.

I think signet change is good.. Share signets was still something that only highly experienced group could take advantage off. Most of time as firebbrand i had to carry not that great group doing lot of mistakes that i have to heal through.

One thing that i hate is mantra of solace. They removed aegis than they give it back in pvp/wvw. And now it seems like two different skills. Which is odd. And i really really dislike that approach. I understand when skill got a bit different duration or cooldown in pve vs pvp.. But when skill doing something entirely different ?! Not to mention heal is weak and aegis was compensation. Now its really poor healing skill in pve that is good only because of trait signergy for quickens..

For WvW nothing going to change. We were boonbots before we will be boonbots again. Not sure its win.. Im personally bit bored vomiting boons in middle of blob.

 

 

[anbujackson.9564]

Firebrand got a damage nerf which no one wanted to see. The problem is the utility at borderline 0 cost. And because utility wasnt adressed, people (rightfully) are not happy.

And about people stacking scourges and virtuosos in HT... Thats a bad point. What else would you play in an encounter where you move like every 10 seconds. Scourges and virtuosos are 90%++ ranged playable specs. The only thing close would be a specter I guess? Also if you bring HT up you would have also seen that the only quickness providers were firebrands. Yeah i know its just 2 per squad which is not good enough surely (cough). But firebrand sucks in ranged combat. 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Balance perception inertia in play. Once people decide something's OP, often the only thing that can shift that opinion is for it to be nerfed into oblivion. Until then, any time someone is successful with it turns into evidence that it's still OP through confirmation bias.

Regarding the notes:

Signets have, arguably, been buffed, although some specific usages have been removed.

The change to Strength in Numbers is pretty much just in line with the changes to other "grant stats to allies" traits. Given how much protection guardians can produce normally, having more protection in lieu of a static bonus is probably a net nerf, but not a big deal.

Reduced burning damage is clearly a nerf. We'll see how much of one it is, comparatively speaking, as new benchmarks come out.

Which is, of course, highlighting one very real issue - guardian has still come out of this reasonably okay (losing a bit of damage for their utility is probably fair) while some others have either been gutted or given buffs that were so inconsequential as to be almost insulting.

[otto.5684]

11 hours ago, Solstice.5790 said:

Reading through the patch notes and the reactions to them, as probably a lot of us did, I've noticed several people saying that the June 28th patch was yet another buff to the already and always overpowered Firebrand elite spec.

The changes were:

Guardian

Valor

• Strength in Numbers: This trait has been reworked. It now grants protection to allies while in combat, applying protection with a 3-second duration on a 10-second interval.

Radiance

• Amplified Wrath: Burning damage increase reduced from 15% to 10% in PvE only.
• Perfect Inscriptions: No longer grants signet passive effects to allies when activated. Instead, signets continue to provide their passive effects while recharging.

Signets

• Signet of Resolve: Decreased the passive effect's internal cooldown from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. This effect will now protect the player from an incoming condition by immediately removing it, and then it begins its internal cooldown. The active effect now additionally removes two conditions from the player.
• Signet of Mercy: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 50 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Wrath: Immobile duration increased from 3 seconds to 6 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Courage: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. Active effect radius reduced from 1,200 to 600. Now heals for a smaller amount in five small channeled heal pulses, followed by one large final heal. Now also channels protection, resolution, and stability on allies in the radius. Does not apply stability in PvP or WvW.

Firebrand

• Mantra of Solace: This skill now grants aegis instead of protection and resolution in PvP and WvW.

 

Considering that Valor isn't used in any Spec, Signets only in limited situations where they are not even affected by the patch (Mercy in WvW, noone uses Courage because you need other elites...), and Mantra of Solace is just returned to its former function (in PvP/WVW gamemodes only), I find it really hard to understand where the feeling of "buffs" is coming from.

I'm not saying those claims are unjustified, but can someone please explain the reasons for calling this a buff? Preferably without turning the whole thing into a fight club?

Valor not used? If you are playing DH or core dps it is a must. I think the 3 sec protection is better than the 100 toughness, but it is a slight buff to irrelevant builds. The PI trait change is a mega nerf. The changes to all signets is irrelevant. The elite signet could have been good in PvP withe stability. Without it it is useless. The mantra of solace change is kittening stupid. Yes, it is a buff in WvW. In spvp the mantra is still useless cuz it does not heal. No one uses FB in spvp, and this does not matter. When the heal skill heals let’s me know…

 

Honestly, the only relevant change, in the entire patch, is the 5% nerf to amplified wrath. Even that does not do much. It is all insignificant bull kitten. 

[Massimoni.9453]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

The problem is the utility at borderline 0 cost

That is just plain wrong. You either have to replace utility skills which add a good chunk to your DPS or you have to enter F2 or F3 tomes which also lock you out of most of your damage.

 

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

But firebrand sucks in ranged combat

And that's why the damage nerf makes absolutely zero sense. Why do they nerf a melee class with lower benchmarks more than ranged specs with higher benchmarks?! cFB is a DPS spec, taking away its damage will NOT result in any positive contribution to the game's balance.

 

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Signets have, arguably, been buffed

I just don't see it this way on cFB or qFB. Taking "Perfect Inscriptions" to not lose passives (which is the whole reason the condition damage signet is being used RN) replaces "Amplifying Wrath" -> big damage loss.

 

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The change to Strength in Numbers is pretty much just in line with the changes to other "grant stats to allies" traits

Just that it is in a trait line that is not and won't be used... This is very similar to Warrior having it's crit bonus in a condi trait line, just that complaining about that is fine but here it's forbidden.

 

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

or given buffs that were so inconsequential as to be almost insulting.

As is the case here.

 

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Reduced burning damage is clearly a nerf. We'll see how much of one it is, comparatively speaking, as new benchmarks come out.

Well, I am by no means a benchmarker, but pre patch I did roughly 35k DPS solo on golem. Now I can't get over 29.5k. Firebrand got hit especially hard by the Ranger spirit change, as it made the most use of sun spirit, hence the huge DPS loss. Very excited what others benchmark results will be.

 

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

losing a bit of damage for their utility is probably fair

You can fit one utility on your bar with mediocre damage loss, which is most likely "Sanctuary", "Stand your Ground" or "Advance", all with very reasonable cooldowns IMO. It's not like people make it out to be that you can take any utility you like and still do great.

 

 

Btw seems like the first "confused" monkey found this thread.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Massimoni.9453

[Massimoni.9453]

8 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

Valor not used? If you are playing DH or core dps it is a must

If it is a must, how come meta builds don't use it then? DHs use "Radiance", "Zeal" and ofc "Dragonhunter" with "Radiance" being rarely replaced by "Virtues". I am not aware of any guard builds relying on "Valor", especially as its a defensive line.

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

If it is a must, how come meta builds don't use it then? DHs use "Radiance", "Zeal" and ofc "Dragonhunter" with "Radiance" being rarely replaced by "Virtues". I am not aware of any guard builds relying on "Valor", especially as its a defensive line.

Both core dps and DH use it in pvp. The change is not over related and does not impact pve in anyway.

Edited June 29, 2022 by otto.5684

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

That is just plain wrong. You either have to replace utility skills which add a good chunk to your DPS or you have to enter F2 or F3 tomes which also lock you out of most of your damage.

 

I am sorry but this is just pure firebrand bias and I dont know if you are trolling.

Good chunk of dps? Fire mantra sure as hell isnt. Signet aint that important either. 

And saying that you cant deal damage while in F2 or F3 is just the cake. What? Not good enough that you have an AoE heal and cleanse on F2 for free? Boons (aegis and stab) and reflect on F3? You can still spam your utility skills while being in tome. Do you want them permanent all the time while mashing your weapon skills or what? 

You might want to step away from your guard (and mech) bubble and look for real tradeoffs on other classes. Some dont even have ANY effect you get for free at all, even if they drop a dps traitline for support (which firebrand doesnt need to). 

[Massimoni.9453]

2 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

I am sorry but this is just pure firebrand bias and I dont know if you are trolling.

Good chunk of dps? Fire mantra sure as hell isnt. Signet aint that important either. 

And saying that you cant deal damage while in F2 or F3 is just the cake. What? Not good enough that you have an AoE heal and cleanse on F2 for free? Boons (aegis and stab) and reflect on F3? You can still spam your utility skills while being in tome. Do you want them permanent all the time while mashing your weapon skills or what? 

You might want to step away from your guard (and mech) bubble and look for real tradeoffs on other classes. Some dont even have ANY effect you get for free at all, even if they drop a dps traitline for support (which firebrand doesnt need to). 

Well you just basically made my point. Let me quote you again: "The problem is the utility at borderline 0 cost ". It's nowhere near free, that case would be engi with its always accessible toolbelt. Being in F2 and/or F3 tome for more than very few seconds drops your DPS close to zero as burning on the longer skills lasts around 8 seconds on 100% condi duration. If you as a DPS had to slot some permanent boon access on the skillbar, you would go and replace your signet with it. Try doing more than that and benchmark it a bit, if you really think it makes absolutely no difference, as you stated. Also you make it seem like tome cooldowns aren't a thing. Firebrand always had its utility balanced indirectly by providing rather low DPS numbers which are also almost exclusively melee and have short durations with some even pulsing in a small area.

Btw I play basically all classes so you can leave with your little bubble accusation.

[Ferus.3165]

2 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Well, I am by no means a benchmarker, but pre patch I did roughly 35k DPS solo on golem. Now I can't get over 29.5k. Firebrand got hit especially hard by the Ranger spirit change, as it made the most use of sun spirit, hence the huge DPS loss. Very excited what others benchmark results will be.

I achieved similar numbers. I started playing condi willbender a few weeks ago and while i am far from being benchmark level i consistently got to 36k dps without infusions. After this patch even with infusions i only get to 30k. So it seems to have been a pretty substantial nerf. But considering you get pretty much the same dps as a power mechanist throwing bomb kit autos i don't really think willbender is worth it anymore, because mechanist is ranged and the boss can move as much as it wants and the dps still stays the same (good chunk of willbender dps comes from lingering aoes on the ground).

[Massimoni.9453]

10 minutes ago, Ferus.3165 said:

I achieved similar numbers. I started playing condi willbender a few weeks ago and while i am far from being benchmark level i consistently got to 36k dps without infusions. After this patch even with infusions i only get to 30k. So it seems to have been a pretty substantial nerf. But considering you get pretty much the same dps as a power mechanist throwing bomb kit autos i don't really think willbender is worth it anymore, because mechanist is ranged and the boss can move as much as it wants and the dps still stays the same (good chunk of willbender dps comes from lingering aoes on the ground).

Glad and sad that I am not the only one who lost a lot of DPS. Losing sun spirit and 5% modifier at once hurts alot. Personally I will probably switch my main to thief (more likely) or engi as soon as I get to see some benchmark numbers, haven't played firebrand in raids in a while anyways, as Virtuoso does so much better: Higher DPS, ranged, actually a lot of free CC, lots of passive sustain, long lasting condis, portals, focus pull, boon removal on auto attacks, etc.. Trash DPS on firebrand or other condi guards isn't worth it when you combine it with melee, pulsing damage, short condition durations and no advantages on low armor foes. I barely lost damage on my alac specter and can almost touch my firebrand benchmark with it which is disgusting.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Massimoni.9453

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

That is just plain wrong. You either have to replace utility skills which add a good chunk to your DPS or you have to enter F2 or F3 tomes which also lock you out of most of your damage.

 

And that's why the damage nerf makes absolutely zero sense. Why do they nerf a melee class with lower benchmarks more than ranged specs with higher benchmarks?! cFB is a DPS spec, taking away its damage will NOT result in any positive contribution to the game's balance.

 

I just don't see it this way on cFB or qFB. Taking "Perfect Inscriptions" to not lose passives (which is the whole reason the condition damage signet is being used RN) replaces "Amplifying Wrath" -> big damage loss.

I was talking about signets in general. The change to the signet trait... depends on the precise signet and how you use it. We knew we weren't going to keep the old functionality, though. And several signets have been directly buffed.

3 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

 

Just that it is in a trait line that is not and won't be used... This is very similar to Warrior having it's crit bonus in a condi trait line, just that complaining about that is fine but here it's forbidden.

Sure, it's not like a pure DPS build is going to take a trait that's not intended for DPS. It's a defensive trait in a defensive trait line. That's not the same as putting a trait that's intended to compensate for lower precision in a condition damage traitline.

Seriously, if Strength in Numbers was in Zeal, Radiance, or Virtues, would you take it in a pure DPS build?

3 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

 

As is the case here.

Not really. I disagree strongly with the 'gut firebrand' crowd, but firebrand was certainly in a good position, and probably still is. Close enough that we'll need to see those benchmarks on all builds to judge, anyway. DPS might have dropped across the board.

"Insulting" is Warriors having their unique banner role deleted, being promised quickness as compensation, and getting 4s base quickness on a 60s cooldown per banner taken. Insulting is Heralds being promised quickness but needing full boon duration and perfect rotation to upkeep it, when their DPS was in the hole already even with pure DPS gear. Chrono is now forced to take a shield offhand, sharply reducing its DPS potential. This patch was supposed to give firebrand more competition for the quickness role, but I think it has actually decreased it.

3 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

 

Well, I am by no means a benchmarker, but pre patch I did roughly 35k DPS solo on golem. Now I can't get over 29.5k. Firebrand got hit especially hard by the Ranger spirit change, as it made the most use of sun spirit, hence the huge DPS loss. Very excited what others benchmark results will be.

 

You can fit one utility on your bar with mediocre damage loss, which is most likely "Sanctuary", "Stand your Ground" or "Advance", all with very reasonable cooldowns IMO. It's not like people make it out to be that you can take any utility you like and still do great.

No, it's not like that, but you can swap out one or even two utilities, or swap out the elite, at relatively low cost. You do also have the other tomes, and while people tend to forget that the opportunity cost of pulling out Resolve or Courage is a pretty big DPS dip, it still remains true that pulling them out at a crisis moment can prevent a wipe, which is an ability most DPS builds don't have.

I don't think that's worth a large DPS loss, but a bit of extra safety margin probably is worth a little less DPS potential.

[Massimoni.9453]

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I was talking about signets in general. The change to the signet trait... depends on the precise signet and how you use it. We knew we weren't going to keep the old functionality, though. And several signets have been directly buffed.

Sure, it's not like a pure DPS build is going to take a trait that's not intended for DPS. It's a defensive trait in a defensive trait line. That's not the same as putting a trait that's intended to compensate for lower precision in a condition damage traitline.

Seriously, if Strength in Numbers was in Zeal, Radiance, or Virtues, would you take it in a pure DPS build?

Not really. I disagree strongly with the 'gut firebrand' crowd, but firebrand was certainly in a good position, and probably still is. Close enough that we'll need to see those benchmarks on all builds to judge, anyway. DPS might have dropped across the board.

"Insulting" is Warriors having their unique banner role deleted, being promised quickness as compensation, and getting 4s base quickness on a 60s cooldown per banner taken. Insulting is Heralds being promised quickness but needing full boon duration and perfect rotation to upkeep it, when their DPS was in the hole already even with pure DPS gear. Chrono is now forced to take a shield offhand, sharply reducing its DPS potential. This patch was supposed to give firebrand more competition for the quickness role, but I think it has actually decreased it.

No, it's not like that, but you can swap out one or even two utilities, or swap out the elite, at relatively low cost. You do also have the other tomes, and while people tend to forget that the opportunity cost of pulling out Resolve or Courage is a pretty big DPS dip, it still remains true that pulling them out at a crisis moment can prevent a wipe, which is an ability most DPS builds don't have.

I don't think that's worth a large DPS loss, but a bit of extra safety margin probably is worth a little less DPS potential.

I completely agree with you on the things you said about the other classes. Warrior in general and revenants really got ripped this update and that NEEDS to be adressed. However this discussion is about deluded people calling firebrand untouched or even buffed this patch while it probably took the biggest DPS hit despite not being OP in that regard from the get-go (like cVirtuoso got a smaller DPS nerf or ele mains not aware that catalyst had 46k bench pre patch on power). People need to stop bringing others down and rather focus on making the devs revert stupid changes that scuffed their own mains.

[draxynnic.3719]

31 minutes ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

I completely agree with you on the things you said about the other classes. Warrior in general and revenants really got ripped this update and that NEEDS to be adressed. However this discussion is about deluded people calling firebrand untouched or even buffed this patch while it probably took the biggest DPS hit despite not being OP in that regard from the get-go (like cVirtuoso got a smaller DPS nerf or ele mains not aware that catalyst had 46k bench pre patch on power). People need to stop bringing others down and rather focus on making the devs revert stupid changes that scuffed their own mains.

Yeah, the 'stop trying to destroy the professions that are actually functional and focus on advocating for fixing your own' argument is one I've been making for a while.

This, though, is relatively mild in comparison to what was being thrown around. Dropping down to 29.5k is worrying, but if everyone's taken stiff DPS losses due to the removal of spirits, they will hopefully compensate in a future patch (if they sort out what's currently going on in the imbalance team). 

What's probably happening is that people are reading the notes, seeing the buffs to individual signets, and thinking that means a net buff without considering that the Amplified Wrath nerf is bigger than any of that (and it hits condi willbender as well).

[Carnifex.3275]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:26 AM, Solstice.5790 said:

Reading through the patch notes and the reactions to them, as probably a lot of us did, I've noticed several people saying that the June 28th patch was yet another buff to the already and always overpowered Firebrand elite spec.

The changes were:

Guardian

Valor

• Strength in Numbers: This trait has been reworked. It now grants protection to allies while in combat, applying protection with a 3-second duration on a 10-second interval.

Radiance

• Amplified Wrath: Burning damage increase reduced from 15% to 10% in PvE only.
• Perfect Inscriptions: No longer grants signet passive effects to allies when activated. Instead, signets continue to provide their passive effects while recharging.

Signets

• Signet of Resolve: Decreased the passive effect's internal cooldown from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. This effect will now protect the player from an incoming condition by immediately removing it, and then it begins its internal cooldown. The active effect now additionally removes two conditions from the player.
• Signet of Mercy: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 50 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Wrath: Immobile duration increased from 3 seconds to 6 seconds in PvE only.
• Signet of Courage: Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. Active effect radius reduced from 1,200 to 600. Now heals for a smaller amount in five small channeled heal pulses, followed by one large final heal. Now also channels protection, resolution, and stability on allies in the radius. Does not apply stability in PvP or WvW.

Firebrand

• Mantra of Solace: This skill now grants aegis instead of protection and resolution in PvP and WvW.

 

Considering that Valor isn't used in any Spec, Signets only in limited situations where they are not even affected by the patch (Mercy in WvW, noone uses Courage because you need other elites...), and Mantra of Solace is just returned to its former function (in PvP/WVW gamemodes only), I find it really hard to understand where the feeling of "buffs" is coming from.

I'm not saying those claims are unjustified, but can someone please explain the reasons for calling this a buff? Preferably without turning the whole thing into a fight club?

I didnt understand where people saw buffs either. I knew it's gonna suck for us once i saw that Amplified Wrath nerf (lets not forget sun spirit too). I was gettin 38k dps on cwb and 36k on cfb. Now i can merely reach 30-31k. Same goes for qfb. Qfb was about 30k-32k. Now it's barely 24k. Once i saw the patch notes i thought ok so maybe 2k lower dmg. But this is way worse. At this point hfb is still alright maybe qfb too if 24k is enuff. Other than that.. you better take other DPS specs to your raids, cwb/cfb aint optimal, burning dmg was gutted. 

Waitin for new benchmarks though, maybe power builds (dh or willbender) can pull atleast 35k. If not then yeah, let's forget guardians as dps specs.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Dave.6819

[Gehenna.3625]

Signets got nerfed for group play and buffed for solo players but the overall class got nerfed, particularly with the nerf to amplified wrath.

Now in OW it might be fine but when you're a WvW roamer (also solo play) you need a heal that has a quicker activation time or it will get interrupted. Also the elite being a channel is not good for WvW because it's so easy to interrupt. So it really is just a buff for OW/story content. Maybe if Perfect Inscriptions made the channel uninterruptable and the heal skill 1/4 second cast time, but it's not good enough as a buff.

Not for group content, not for PvP and not for WvW roamers even. This buff for signets seems only aimed at LI builds for non-firebrand guardians.

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

On 6/29/2022 at 12:57 PM, Luna.6203 said:

It's really funny how people hate firebrand on forum but love them in group. Hate is so strong that even when patch nerf firebrand people see buff.

 

You can be jealous but still want it in your team to cheese. I see no contradiction here.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:14 AM, Massimoni.9453 said:

Those are just people who never even tried guardian but following what others tell them mindlessly. They'd still call guard op if it did 2k DPS (which we are getting to slowly but surely after this massive DPS loss this "balance" patch). Try saying anything pro-guardian outside of this subforum and you will farm "confused" reactions by people who would literally compete with monkeys in quite a few aspects 😉

 

OP already stated that the changes aren't buffs because they are not practical.

Valor: Still bad traitline and therefore not used. Changing one trait to 60% protection uptime (maxed boon duration, as HFB would be the only place this would make ANY sense) won't make builds switch over -> worthless change

Radiance: Amplified Wrath combined with the nerf of Ranger spirits (here: Sun spirit, which Firebrand profited the most of) absolutely tanks the already not awesome DPS of firebrands due to burning clearly being its top damage source (>80%) and directly taking away from that, well...

Signet "buffs": Losing signet share is actually quite the nerf for advanced groups. The other changes still don't make signets worthwhile taking or using their actives in any but extremely rare occasions, as it is always accompanied by massive damage losses

Mantra of solace: The only thing even remotely deserving to be called a buff here imo. As stated, this restores the mantra back to what it was before a previous update, albeit ONLY IN COMPETITIVE MODES (and at least in PvP AFAIK firebrand is trash so this might at least help it a little bit)

 

I pretty much agree with everything here, except Valor a bad trait line? Absolutely not. Valor is amazing sustain and critical for some wvw and pvp builds. It's my main tool for staying alive while roaming in wvw or trying to reach my zerg when separated. Condi cleanse, bonus/extra 4.5K healing, and 6 seconds of massive life steal on a 20s CD? Yes, please! And now I can time my CC to force enemy bursts into a generous 33% damage reduction window on top of that? On a 10s CD? Again, yes please!

Don't just follow the meta like sheep. There are some amazing alternatives out there that work great even in fairly broad aspects that the elite just ignore for their own brand of optimal.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Massimoni.9453]

6 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

 

I pretty much agree with everything here, except Valor a bad trait line? Absolutely not. Valor is amazing sustain and critical for some wvw and pvp builds. It's my main tool for staying alive while roaming in wvw or trying to reach my zerg when separated. Condi cleanse, bonus/extra 4.5K healing, and 6 seconds of massive life steal on a 20s CD? Yes, please! And now I can time my CC to force enemy bursts into a generous 33% damage reduction window on top of that? On a 10s CD? Again, yes please!

Don't just follow the meta like sheep. There are some amazing alternatives out there that work great even in fairly broad aspects that the elite just ignore for their own brand of optimal.

I can't comment on any of this as pretty much this whole discussion revolves around PvE (where the absolute majority of players are) and there "Valor" sucks in any group content.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

I can't comment on any of this as pretty much this whole discussion revolves around PvE (where the absolute majority of players are) and there "Valor" sucks in any group content.

Sure, carry on how you want. I'm not sure how to have a discussion about where are the buffs for firebrand, or guardian in general, in this patch without discussing wvw/pvp, since that's where most (all?) of the buffs are. And I've seen both spvp and wvw mentioned several times in the thread already, including in the OP. Hence, my comment. 

Basically, to directly answer, "Firebrand got buffed again! Where?" Answer: wvw. And as a wvw player, yes, they do seem like decent buffs I'm eager to try out.

 

On 6/29/2022 at 6:57 AM, Luna.6203 said:

One thing that i hate is mantra of solace. They removed aegis than they give it back in pvp/wvw. And now it seems like two different skills. Which is odd. And i really really dislike that approach. I understand when skill got a bit different duration or cooldown in pve vs pvp.. But when skill doing something entirely different ?! Not to mention heal is weak and aegis was compensation. Now its really poor healing skill in pve that is good only because of trait signergy for quickens..

 

For WvW nothing going to change. We were boonbots before we will be boonbots again. Not sure its win.. Im personally bit bored vomiting boons in middle of blob.

 

Couldn't agree more. It feels like a completely different skill (and is already used differently in wvw vs pve due to significantly lower quickness durations in competitive modes). Now it feels like a totally different skill. I am curious how well I can leverage the change to Strength in Numbers for small team/roaming in wvw though.

Nothing will change for zergs, except the semi-rare builds that run altruistic healing. They may see a decent benefit for spreading protection to allies (though Communal Defenses is hard to beat in slot). Maybe not for meta, but it's certainly a fun, effective playstyle. Watching red go up just because you're spreading love to teammates, and now even more with the new SiN, is pure joy. Just like watching red go up using traited Litany of Wrath is joy just for wailing as hard as you can.

[otto.5684]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:45 AM, Ferus.3165 said:

I achieved similar numbers. I started playing condi willbender a few weeks ago and while i am far from being benchmark level i consistently got to 36k dps without infusions. After this patch even with infusions i only get to 30k. So it seems to have been a pretty substantial nerf. But considering you get pretty much the same dps as a power mechanist throwing bomb kit autos i don't really think willbender is worth it anymore, because mechanist is ranged and the boss can move as much as it wants and the dps still stays the same (good chunk of willbender dps comes from lingering aoes on the ground).

everyone has taken a nerf to damage. Snow Crows still use the old numbers. It is hard to say 30k is good bad. The nerf to amplified wrath is a 4.35% nerf to condi damage. Since power is not impacted, it is ~3%, or about 1k of 36k benchmark. 6k is 16.67% dps loss. Amplified wrath is small portion of that.

 

We will need to wait a week or two to see where the dust settles. WB and FB should remain around the same relative to everyone else.

[Massimoni.9453]

16 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

WB and FB should remain around the same relative to everyone else

WB and FB are the two classes which profited the most of sun spirit due to being focused on burning damage and therefore having 100% duration and some damage modifiers in it. The removal of sun spirit hurts those specs far more than others, so no, they don't remain relative to everyone else but below everyone else. Removing Sun spirit alone nerfed condi guard more than other condi classes, yet they also put a trait nerf up, doubling down on it. I also roughly calculated the damage loss from "Amplified Wrath" and came out on similar numbers as you, but then benchmarked again and wondered at first, why my guard lost so much more damage than e.g. my harbinger or specter. Sun spirit is why.

"It is hard to say 30k is good bad"

Well we already got a few benchmarks in the meantime and it looks like 30k is terrible, seeing how e.g. Power Soulbeast sits at 37k after a hefty buff, which they can't do to guardian as alot of braindead people will blow up if they clearly buff it (can't tell me otherwise when so many people call it untouched or buffed on a nerf patch due to room temperature IQ). Calculating what the new benchmark of cWB will be is kind of hard, but I definitely doubt it will even come close to 37k, when we look at the fact Ferus was roughly 3k short of benchmark if he had infusions but now sits at 30k, which would put the new benchmark maybe around 33k (I know it isn't linear scaling, but just as a first thought).

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Massimoni.9453