Please anet dont forget vindicator exists

[X Anthony A.8409]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So I'm asking you how much DPS Vindicator needs to be competitive and where it should be added on the spec ... and you want to have an argument about weapon coefficients. 😆(and for the record, I didn't say GS was the highest, I just said it was one of the highest. It's certainly not low so)

Get back on topic here. These references you make to bugs and clunky play ... we aren't talking about that here. IF Vindciator needs DPS to be competitive, how much DPS is that and where on the spec is it added?

 

 

the topic of this post if not mistaken is "please anet dont forget about vidicator" so telling me to get back on topic is kind of you derailing since the post was about whats wrong with vindicator which is on topic since the class being buggy/clunky relates to not forgetting about what's wrong with vindicator, so yes please stop trying to derail the post for your own safety, thanks. 

[Mike.7983]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... so Anet is going to boost Vindicator DPS 40% with skill execution speeds and damage co-efficients just for people who want to use it in optimal teams . I'm going to let that sink in a bit, but not for my benefit. 

 

 

 

Do you even play or main a revenant? please bench a small hitbox with results so we can see how your perfect dps vind is.  Cause rest of us are begging for this to be fixed.

[soul.9651]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wait a minute ... that's already how the spec works. I mean, we have two traits that result in +25% DPS that can be proc'ed 100% uptime. 

Yeah clearly looking at how it performs in the game rn vindicator definetely doesnt have any issues...(sarcasm intented)

 

[Mike.7983]

Just now, soul.9651 said:

Yeah clearly looking at how it performs in the game rn vindicator definetely doesnt have any issues...(sarcasm intented)

 

Haha agree, if the only fix to vind issues is to reroll to another dps, then that alone should prove the class is a bust and warrants a overhaul, look at war/ranger/cata, went from meme on launch to top dps now with a fix in there damage co-efficients.

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Do you even play or main a revenant? please bench a small hitbox with results so we can see how your perfect dps vind is.  Cause rest of us are begging for this to be fixed.

Yes I do. What I bench isn't relevant to the extremely small chance Anet buffs Vindicator by 40% DPS through skill execution times and GS co-efficients. 

I mean, let's get back to what you are saying> So is this a FLAT 40% increase to DPS in GS? so is that like ... adding 20% to all co-efficients and reducing execution times 20%? So you don't have a problem with GS AA with quickness executing in about 1/2 a second with more 10K criting? and be allowed to hit 5 targets? OK ... 😆You think that's a real possibility that something like that would exist?

Just for fun, I'm going to check what I do now ingame. I'm going to hit a Golem with one fully critting AA ... and add 40% to that.  

EDIT: yup, even in not-optimal DPS Diviners gear setup, an AA chain hits for 8K all critting, no target Vuln ... so 10K was accurate guess. Yeah that should be BANG UP when Anet adds 40% to that and I have full vuln stacks on my target... and apparently that buff isn't even meta DPS. awesome. very reasonable. I TOTALLY see Anet doing this. 😐

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mike.7983]

I ask that you be respectful of this forum discussion and to respect others ideas to fix this class as this topic intended, by attacking any one else and there posts about possible solutions you are personally attacking myself and others and purposely derailing this conversation.  If you have any fixes that are positive please elaborate, just do not pounce on us for ideas or solutions.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

I ask that you be respectful of this forum discussion and to respect others ideas to fix this class as this topic intended, by attacking any one else and there posts about possible solutions you are personally attacking myself and others and purposely derailing this conversation.  If you have any fixes that are positive please elaborate, just do not pounce on us for ideas or solutions.

I'm just challenging the validity of your suggestion through a practical critical analysis. I mean, you think adding 40% DPS through execution time reductions and coefficient increases is reasonable. I went in the game to try to see what that would actually play like. Did you do that? What my experience in game and in the game history tells me ... is that 40% DPS increases in the way you suggest is highly unlikely. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

20 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   In the rigth conditions power Vindi does 2/3 of the damage of condi WB, which also has an extra +50% armor,  two dodges, team stability and some aegis to share.

   The real fail  of this thread is people refusing to accept that game designers don't play Rev and they expect Rev players to move to Guardian, Engineer or something useful.

   That's all folks, just play another class or even better try other games!

The mech on the log in screen just says it all about the game's direction. (Funny how they yet got another buff with that bug fix, meanwhile we sit here hoping our dying spec gets even noticed once at pve part in the patch notes)

[Mike.7983]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm just challenging the validity of your suggestion through a practical critical analysis. I mean, you think adding 40% DPS through execution time reductions and coefficient increases is reasonable. I went in the game to try to see what that would actually play like. Did you do that? What my experience in game and in the game history tells me ... is that 40% DPS increases in the way you suggest is highly unlikely. 

Ok that's it your directly trolling and insulting me now, reported.

[soul.9651]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I went in the game to try to see what that would actually look like.

Yeah and now do the same with vindicator by clearing Raid cms, fract cms and and at least aetherblade strike cm then do some comments again how well did it go ^^ with some logs too or you can start with a classic w1-w4 clear 🙂

Edited July 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Mike.7983 said:

Ok that's it your directly trolling and insulting me now, reported.

Not sure where you think the insult is in there. You suggested a 40% DPS increase through speed and coefficient increases. I went in the game and tested that out. I asked you if you did the same. I can't imagine how this would be reasonably implemented based on my own testing. This is actually all very reasonable discussion going on here. 

[Mike.7983]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Not sure where you think the insult is in there. You suggested a 40% DPS increase through speed and coefficient increases. I went in the game and tested that out. I asked you if you did the same. I can't imagine how this would be reasonably implemented based on my own testing. This is actually all very reasonable discussion going on here. 

Your constant argueing with us, unless you post your ideas stop attacking ours.  Not saying we are right or wrong but give us your amazing forum wisdom if you seem to know how to fix.  If you cant support others post without ripping it apart saying we are wrong etc plz stop posting against us.

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Your constant argueing with us, unless you post your ideas stop attacking ours.  Not saying we are right or wrong but give us your amazing forum wisdom if you seem to know how to fix.  If you cant support others post without ripping it apart saying we are wrong etc plz stop posting against us.

Wait, I can't challenge ideas I think are bad? In an open forum? As a discussion? Weird. That's EXACTLY what they are for. 

Listen ... I think this idea of Vindicator getting 'competitive DPS' because other classes have more DPS is TERRIBLY BAD for the game and HIGHLY UNREALISTIC, so I'm going to challenge it's validity from any angle that people want to support it.

Let's try this. Is there some OTHER testing you have done or more specific suggestion you have for getting 40% DPS that wouldn't require unrealistic implementations of execution speeds and weapon coefficients? You have to keep in mind that whatever change is implemented to accommodate a subset of players' specific teaming requirements should not be at the expense of trivializing other PVE content. 

Here is my idea though since you asked ... this isn't a problem in the first place. If you want to play with optimal teams, you play optimal builds they want. If you want to play whatever you want, then you don't play with optimal teams. Not everything can be optimal. There isn't a reason Vindicator should be made optimal.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mike.7983]

Ok i'm done with this forum post , turned from idea to get devs to address and fix to a witch hunt, not getting dragged down in the negativity.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Mike.7983

[soul.9651]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 you want to play with optimal teams, you play optimal builds they want. If you want to play whatever you want, then you don't play with optimal teams.

 

Dont you think that then every spec deserves to have one kind or the other viable optimal build in pve?(vindicator is just one example there are other specs which needs anets attention too but rn the topic is vindicator) You dont wanna people have fun playing the game efficiently while playing the spec they like? At the end this is why people even play this game - to have fun. Forcing people to play what they dont enjoy just shouldnt exist, but thats why balance team exists... to keep the balance in the game(are they doing their job right that is other topic)

Edited July 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Yeah, they're providing nothing to the discussion. They are asking for the mathematics to give exact changes to the T of number tweaks, yet won't provide their benchmarks, won't provide what they believe to be realistic solutions, and keeps UNNECESSARILY capitalizing words. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Hey i agree with Optena. Vindi do not need any buffs - hes totally right on that one. Vindi needs to get deleted off game files forever and replaced with new espec instead

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

(..) ... this isn't a problem in the first place. If you want to play with optimal teams, you play optimal builds they want. If you want to play whatever you want, then you don't play with optimal teams. Not everything can be optimal. There isn't a reason Vindicator should be made optimal.

 

Well meta's exist but gap between metas and non meta should not be that big, that's why in gw1 one could add once in a while some  more less meta builds into the equation.

IMO theres still a bit of class canabalization since everything is arround  boon and condi, some classes wont be actually needed to play team content due that, but by the other hand make some class designed to carry with dps as compensation  isnt the solution either.

I still blame ANet awfull class design.

 

50 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Hey i agree with Optena. Vindi do not need any buffs - hes totally right on that one. Vindi needs to get deleted off game files forever and replaced with new espec instead

 

Would not hurt the game, yet if Anet deleted builds predadators can u imagine the whole pve /raid comunity  QQ saying now its unplayable.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Angesombre.4630]

If we look at vindicator it has 2 legends for the alliance one damage and the other heal. The heal and correct but provided little advantage compared to renegade, if we take in comparison with the FB that heal, dps and buff we are far from all that. In addition, as I have seen above in the conversation in general, appart in celestial we will do more one than the other either heal or dps. 
The red side him nothing except by changing some trait which makes it less powerful and still that remains 8 powers and protection. There is what of insane on this legend. If they had already tried to fix the 3 to GS to show that he cares, not even, but the nerf on it did not take long.

[Aeolus.3615]

49 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If we look at vindicator it has 2 legends for the alliance one damage and the other heal. The heal and correct but provided little advantage compared to renegade, if we take in comparison with the FB that heal, dps and buff we are far from all that. In addition, as I have seen above in the conversation in general, appart in celestial we will do more one than the other either heal or dps. 
The red side him nothing except by changing some trait which makes it less powerful and still that remains 8 powers and protection. There is what of insane on this legend. If they had already tried to fix the 3 to GS to show that he cares, not even, but the nerf on it did not take long.

The only amazing thing Viktor provides is treesong and a evade back utility. everything else should be offensive defensive.

Urn of Viktor should increase damage and damage reduction, the more health Vindicator drops, it would help with the DPS,  funny how the original gw1  concept of the urn  conflits with Jalis elite.

Having put Healing and heal output quoeficients in the specialization borked up its concept, Anet could made both power based and yet onde being  defensive and other offensive.

Note: every vindicator IC in wvw is a minstrell one wich they say class is amazing for support which is in fact not that good.

 

EDIT: Theres 2 threads one for DPS vindi and other for the potato heal vindi ... power vindicator outside pve is trash lvl as well due how Anet foces every one to range gimmick gameplay.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Dont you think that then every spec deserves to have one kind or the other viable optimal build in pve?(vindicator is just one example there are other specs which needs anets attention too but rn the topic is vindicator) You dont wanna people have fun playing the game efficiently while playing the spec they like? At the end this is why people even play this game - to have fun. Forcing people to play what they dont enjoy just shouldnt exist, but thats why balance team exists... to keep the balance in the game(are they doing their job right that is other topic)

Wait ... so you think Revenant doesn't have a viable optimal build in PVE? I mean that begs the question what you define a viable optimal build to be. Do that, then I can answer your question . What I can guarantee you that the answer to your question will have ALOT to do with the nonsensical nature of people asking for buffs because they use OP'ed builds and insane DPS benchmarks as their standards for balance in the game ... but OK, let's do this. 

yes, I hope Anet doesn't forget about Vindicator. I hope they don't forget about it's theme of duality, and the basic concept that they have to maintain the balance between the offensive and defensive side. I hope Anet doesn't forget they shouldn't compromise their class concepts to make everything play the same for 'competing' in team spots when they designed the game to NOT require that competition in spots to be successful. Yes ... please don't forget Anet. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Well meta's exist but gap between metas and non meta should not be that big, 

Why not? What is the ACTUAL problem with the size of the meta and non-meta gap? In practical terms there isn't one because if you want an optimal group, the gap size doesn't matter because they want meta builds. If you want a group that let's you play how you want, the gap size doesn't matter because they don't care what you play. What is this 'in between' group that cares enough to kick a class if they don't have good DPS ... but cares not enough to kick you if you aren't playing meta? People here make it sound like that's EVERY group that ever existed, when that group never existed. 

Furthermore, most of the gap people have playing builds isn't even related to the build, it's related to the person playing it. As the performance using a build is affected increasingly by the player, then the calls for balancing builds looks increasingly absurd as well. I mean, we shouldn't have builds that trivialize PVE content for sure but the idea we have Vindicator compete with top DPS builds isn't even relevant to a huge percentage of the playerbase to begin with. Most players  aren't even capable of a level of performance where they could realize those DPS improvements. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

56 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wait ... so you think Revenant doesn't have a viable optimal build in PVE? I mean that begs the question what you define a viable optimal build to be. Do that, then I can answer your question . What I can guarantee you that the answer to your question will have ALOT to do with the nonsensical nature of people asking for buffs because they use OP'ed builds and insane DPS benchmarks as their standards for balance in the game ... but OK, let's do this. 

yes, I hope Anet doesn't forget about Vindicator. I hope they don't forget about it's theme of duality, and the basic concept that they have to maintain the balance between the offensive and defensive side. I hope Anet doesn't forget they shouldn't compromise their class concepts to make everything play the same for 'competing' in team spots when they designed the game to NOT require that competition in spots to be successful. Yes ... please don't forget Anet. 

Not revenant in general i meant vindicator specificly to be more clear

Edited July 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Not revenant in general i meant vindicator specificly to be more clear

Then the answer is no, I don't think every spec needs to be an optimal build for PVE. I don't think that's actually reasonable to expect every spec to be optimal in PVE somehow, especially considering how the game doesn't require people to play optimal builds to be successful in PVE to begin with and considering that we are getting to a volume of specs that is already starting to overwhelm the system ... and continue to get more specs making it worse.   

And yes, that's exactly related to the fact that there just isn't bandwidth at Anet or in the game design to create or host an optimal build for every espec. Set some reasonable expectations people because balance doesn't get better with more specs, it gets worse. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

20 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think that's actually reasonable to expect every spec to be optimal in PVE somehow, especially considering how the game doesn't require people to play optimal builds to be successful in PVE to begin with and considering that we are going to continue to get more specs.  

Well this is just false or at least partially true, i rly would like to see non optimal builds beating the new harvest temple cm, or cms like twin largos or dhuum, there is just no way that random people with random stats on their gear and no optimal boon upkeep just would do this kind of content.. on the other hand only the easier raid bosses could be cleared without any optimal dps builds but only just because specs like mech fb and scourge exists to carry people through the content no matter how bad they are, but as said before some content exists that not even the best supps in the world can carry if u dont have fully optimized group

Edited July 23, 2022 by soul.9651