Downstate is being wrongfully blamed.

[Hotride.2187]

On 7/8/2022 at 1:17 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

The question to ask here:

Is there any warrior in the entire world that has *ever* won a 1v3 fight?

If yes, well then there you go. If they can so should you. Failure is no excuse, just the path to victory.

If no, then you seem to come awfully close and thus has to be one of the best warriors in the world. So you have that going for you I guess.

The problem is that even vs bad players (where you can win a 1v3 on war), you cant realistically stomp anyone. The way you win the 1v3 is, you down each player often enough for them to get insta downed after getting ressed so many times.

But this is hardly a wvw thing, securing a down in conquest is not much different. If the opponent team is on the ball, gl with stomping/cleaving, you'll never have enough dmg.

Even so I don't think no downstate is the way to go. It should instead be harder to res someone than it is to cleave/stomp them. Instead of having to CC the resing person, the resing person should be the one that has to CC and so on. Instead of popping 3 stacks of stab, maybe a projectile hate dome and then just resing in a few sec.

[Dawdler.8521]

31 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

The problem is that even vs bad players (where you can win a 1v3 on war), you cant realistically stomp anyone. The way you win the 1v3 is, you down each player often enough for them to get insta downed after getting ressed so many times.

Thats still winning the fight though.

The point is that some people claim a fight was only a challenge if they won (be it a 1v1, 1v2, 1v3 or any number) and if they loose its downstate fault, the enemy was bad and apparently the enemy barely winning or loosing is not allowed the same challenge against better players even with the help of downstate.

Its a very selfish point of view.

And yes I agree that there are multiple things that could be changed to make it harder to res (no rally, lower HP, only 1 can res, res rate slower, etc) but once again that argument will meet a brick wall when talking to people saying delete downstate.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Jaruselka.5943]

I dislike downstate mainly for the fact that the downstate skills are so wildly uneven/unfair. Compare the DS skills between an Elementalist and an Engineer and you'll see what I am talking about. Vapor Form is one of the best skills in the entire game...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Jaruselka.5943

[Mabi black.1824]

1 hour ago, Jaruselka.5943 said:

I dislike downstate mainly for the fact that the downstate skills are so wildly uneven/unfair. Compare the DS skills between an Elementalist and an Engineer and you'll see what I am talking about. Vapor Form is one of the best skills in the entire game...

I have to say that I agree with that. I understand that it is nice that each class can build differently and that each one has different characteristics, and so far we will all agree. but when you're downcast, you're just downcast. I also want a skill that makes me get up running for 20 meters and return to my tower so someone can relive me.

please make the skills been knocked down the same for all thanks.😊

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:02 AM, Jaruselka.5943 said:

I dislike downstate mainly for the fact that the downstate skills are so wildly uneven/unfair. Compare the DS skills between an Elementalist and an Engineer and you'll see what I am talking about. Vapor Form is one of the best skills in the entire game...

 

Always love this one. Agree while on my Engi, I love my ability that should be re-labled, "Please kill me now, I want to get to spawn faster!' pull. Get over here to spike me faster would you. It would be fine if it pulled the person and then threw them away from you in the opposite direction it pulled them in from. Try to use it to prevent another downed player from getting spiked but it just means instead odds are I will back to spawn first as it will lead to you being spiked first. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by TheGrimm.5624
Sentence structure, implied words

[Xenesis.6389]

I suggested years ago they should normalize downed skills to be the same for every class to basically same health and attack/cc or cover/res yourself. Back in the day downed skills had some part for classes that were weaker and more likely to go down due to their health pool and defenses, but everything can be tanky these days if they want to be, so no real point adjusting downed state on a per class basis anymore. Ele's will probably be the most peeved about this though, which should tell you something about it...

But hey, the usual, no one cared, so whatever.

[Labjax.2465]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:37 AM, Jitters.9401 said:

You are funny. Made me chuckle.

 

My style of play is fun.

I don't sit and wait till I have a massive advantage on someone else. That may be your "MO" but definitely not mine. I like to run on in amd enjoy myself.

 

I've gone into  camps with full RI on the supervisor many times and all guards alive just to attack someone and see if I can get the kill. Most times I win. Once in a blue moon I have to escape. 

 

Running in blind?  LOL. More like Running amok for the fun of the challenge.

 

You play your way of safety behind walls and looking for cheap opportunities while I will keep playing my way of testing the odds.

 

P.S.  you are funny.

 

If your style of play is fun, then why do you care about losing to downstate. Have you considered that the players on the other side of the screen might not consider it fair or fun if you had your way?

[Labjax.2465]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:09 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thats still winning the fight though.

The point is that some people claim a fight was only a challenge if they won (be it a 1v1, 1v2, 1v3 or any number) and if they loose its downstate fault, the enemy was bad and apparently the enemy barely winning or loosing is not allowed the same challenge against better players even with the help of downstate.

Its a very selfish point of view.

And yes I agree that there are multiple things that could be changed to make it harder to res (no rally, lower HP, only 1 can res, res rate slower, etc) but once again that argument will meet a brick wall when talking to people saying delete downstate.

Yeah. I might have missed it, but so far I haven't seen any reasons given for deleting downstate that amount to more than "I want better odds when outnumbered." Which to me is just absurd, like other players are not NPCs and if someone wants to live out an action hero fantasy in PvP combat, they gotta be exceptionally skilled or have exceptionally unskilled opponents, or some combination of the two. That's how it works and to balance around somebody's action hero fantasy without considering who has to be subjected to it is I would say, as you put it, a very selfish point of view.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Full disclosure: thief main here. 

I don't necessarily have a problem with rally or with downed state, but I do think that there should be a harsher limit to the number of times your friends can get you up before you skip downed and die straight off. Right now an ally could res me 4ish times in 5ish mins before the next down would kill me, if you only got 1 or maybe 2 resses in 5 mins before you hit that state that would be a happy medium: roamers/outnumbered opponents will get the kill if they can consistently down someone, but the downed guy still gets the benefit of his allies helping him out and an opportunity to fight back. Changing this would give the most impact with the least changes imo. 

[Jitters.9401]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Have you considered that the players on the other side of the screen might not consider it fair or fun if you had your way?

Haha

Why would I? 

 

WvW should be based upon skill not rallying. Especially rallying to npc's multiple times. 

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Haha

Why would I? 

 

WvW should be based upon skill not rallying. Especially rallying to npc's multiple times. 

Because not everything is about you and your fun? 🤨

[Jitters.9401]

On 7/14/2022 at 4:31 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yet you still blaim downed state for the failure of you "challenging" yourself  by "testing the odds", with the obvious implication that without downstate odds are high the fight would have been no challenge. Hmm. Not so much funny as it is strange.

I technically won the fight multiple times.

 

Even not on my thief I'm good at what I do when it comes to WvW. 

 

Rallying off of npc's is a ridiculous game mechanic. In beating down two people, my damage went to rallying the enemy the many times. Had I gone down at the start there would have been no rallying for me. Just death. So why would you think that it is fair for 2 enemies to rally 4 times when I would get zero because i fight solo?  I would just get stomped.

 

Solo roamers are already at a disadvantage without the stupid of downstates.

 

 

 

[Jitters.9401]

7 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Because not everything is about you and your fun? 🤨

Haha what a sad sad troll. 

 

Equality. 

A solo roamer is at a disadvantage in every fight against multiple opponents. It is skill that makes a difference. 

 

If I have zero chance of being rallied in a fight off of npc's while fighting multiple opponents then why should my enemies have that luxury.  No skill involved.  

 

Had I gone down I would have been stomped right away. It isn't always possible to stomp a downed enemy when you are fighting multiple people. Much if the time you need to go by attrition of their health pool. You know. Using skill. Down state is just another mechanic that is anti solo roamer.

 

 Like I said. I roam solo and fight multiple people at the same time. Your responses tell me you blob and prefer numbers to your advantage.  

 

Good for you. Do your 10vs1 ganks but don't use your experience in blobs to say that solo roamers need more against them in 1 vs multiple fights. 

[Labjax.2465]

43 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Haha what a sad sad troll. 

 

Equality. 

A solo roamer is at a disadvantage in every fight against multiple opponents. It is skill that makes a difference. 

 

If I have zero chance of being rallied in a fight off of npc's while fighting multiple opponents then why should my enemies have that luxury.  No skill involved.  

 

Had I gone down I would have been stomped right away. It isn't always possible to stomp a downed enemy when you are fighting multiple people. Much if the time you need to go by attrition of their health pool. You know. Using skill. Down state is just another mechanic that is anti solo roamer.

 

 Like I said. I roam solo and fight multiple people at the same time. Your responses tell me you blob and prefer numbers to your advantage.  

 

Good for you. Do your 10vs1 ganks but don't use your experience in blobs to say that solo roamers need more against them in 1 vs multiple fights. 

Asking you if you're considering other people's point of view is trolling now? 🥴

Yes, a solo roamer is at a disadvantage against multiple opponents. It turns out being teamed up on is hard. Why is that odd?

I don't think you should have to deal with getting ganked by 10v1 or however you want to put it. And I think people who chase solo roamers to team up on them are operating on a selfish mentality, instead of a sports-like one. I hate ganking in PvP and always have in whatever game it happens in.

BUT...

On 7/14/2022 at 5:37 AM, Jitters.9401 said:

I've gone into  camps with full RI on the supervisor many times and all guards alive just to attack someone and see if I can get the kill. Most times I win. Once in a blue moon I have to escape. 

 

Running in blind?  LOL. More like Running amok for the fun of the challenge.

 

You play your way of safety behind walls and looking for cheap opportunities while I will keep playing my way of testing the odds.

 

P.S.  you are funny.

 

if you actively seek out disadvantaged fights and then complain about it being a little too disadvantaged in ways you don't like, what do you think the reaction is going to be?

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Right now an ally could res me 4ish times in 5ish mins before the next down would kill me

You're not even close there though so its actually far worse than you think, lol - downed penalty only last 60 seconds. If you down someone 4 times just over every minute during a 5 minute fight... they have no penalty. So they would never instantly die, they always down at 75%.

I agree that this is bad balancing, the penalty should last much longer or only reset when going through a spawn.

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You're not even close there though so its actually far worse than you think, lol - downed penalty only last 60 seconds. If you down someone 4 times just over every minute during a 5 minute fight... they have no penalty. So they would never instantly die, they always down at 75%.

I agree that this is bad balancing, the penalty should last much longer or only reset when going through a spawn.

I can't help but wonder if it's finishers that need looking at, rather than downed state itself. It seems like it's way too easy to interrupt them and in some situations, way too deadly to even get close enough to try, so downed state essentially becomes another health bar instead of being an especially vulnerable state.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I can't help but wonder if it's finishers that need looking at, rather than downed state itself. It seems like it's way too easy to interrupt them and in some situations, way too deadly to even get close enough to try, so downed state essentially becomes another health bar instead of being an especially vulnerable state.

I dont really think so since basic damage does alot on downed (there's a reason why the zerg dont actually finish downed) and most classes have some trick they can use to get close/stab up/invouln/tp/etc. It's just the balance of the time it takes to actually do stomps weighed against the ease of power ressing that is the most common issue. You will *never* be able to solve the exponential gains of numbers (ie even without downstate a 30 man can let 5 people go OOC and fully res the dead if they face 5 people that can barely touch them due to permabubbles and permaboons) but two very simple things that Anet could change in minutes would help with this in general - 1:1 res and reducing downstate penalties to 3 (ie 66%/33%/dead).

But given the last major nerf to downstate was what, 2016-2017 with 1:1 rally (cant even remember, warclaw stomp was too shortlived to count), I wouldnt hold my breath for anything. I'm happy enough if that reward structure change comes before I die of old age.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You're not even close there though so its actually far worse than you think, lol - downed penalty only last 60 seconds. If you down someone 4 times just over every minute during a 5 minute fight... they have no penalty. So they would never instantly die, they always down at 75%.

I agree that this is bad balancing, the penalty should last much longer or only reset when going through a spawn.

It's usually far worse than I think xD But thanks for the info, it does explain a lot. I've had fights 1v3+ where one guy gets ressed 3-4 times before something forces me to leave or die, like I say I don't mind down state in and of itself but it's a little too forgiving for larger groups right now. Especially when larger groups already have the advantage by virtue of having more players/damage/CC etc. As you said above, either 1:1 ressing or making the penalty for going down last longer & take less downs before you die, both suggestions would fix the problem with minimal fallout. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[Xenesis.6389]

All this talk about rallies, but not res skills... 🙄

[MaLong.2079]

Having a no-rally week would be interesting. I don't know if it would be bad or good but I would like to see how it goes.

Maybe they can also remove all downed skills while they are at it. We don't need them. Seriously.

Engineers have done alright all this time without them😁

[Ausar.9542]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:13 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Games more fun without downstate 100% of the time.

Being able to res a full dead person OOC is a joke too, just force a WP on death like spvp.

Actually, just make WvW  have everything the same as spvp. WvW is a joke of a game mode.

SPvP is the worst PvP I have ever played in a MMO ever