I don't think this patch will change much.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

For Raids and Strikes, as long as Firebrand/Mechanist exists in their current Form, I don't think the new support Warrior will see much play. 

 Openworld/World bosses. Here I think we will see some but that does not really matter now, does it? 

I mean, all Anet did here was give a kid the ability to walk again after breaking his legs themself before and now tell the kid " go compete against highly trained marathon runners". 

The kid can run for fun but winning is out of the question. 

 

What about Wvw? While it's true that some of the banner sound nice there but... It's still Warrior/Spellbreaker. 

Will a class that sees next to zero play suddenly be part of the meta again just because we have 1-2 better utilities now? 

Not really. 

Everything that make Warrior undesirable still applies. 

All in all. We will see but I don't think this will really change anything. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281
Spelling.

[Naxx.6203]

Of course you don't think it will change much. You are one of the top doomers on this sub.

Most of snowcrow's warrior channel says these are good changes design wise so now it all comes to down to numbers and they can be easily tweaken.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Nawrotex.9521

[Hotride.2187]

I could tell you this when they announced the unique buffs rework.

But hey, once they have the foundation, all that is left is to nerf support guard and support engi so that they are comparable to the rest of the professions. Which is unlikely to happen but still.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

What about Wvw? While it's true that some of the banner sound nice there but... It's still Warrior/Spellbreaker. 

Will a class that sees next to zero play suddenly be part of the meta again just because we have 1-2 better utilities now? 

Not really. 

Everything that make Warrior undesirable still applies. 

All in all. We will see but I don't think this will really change anything. 

I can make a 30 second aegis/resistance utility work. It depends on what the uptime is. If it's generous there might be ways to leverage them  for pvp /wvw.

It has the potential to not be enough though. And if they wipe their hands off and call it a day then, nothing will change. The core/spellbreaker/zerker players will continue to languish, occasionally having their complaints stifled by people wielding bladesworn as a cudgel, because facetanking everything is okay suddenly if it means people don't have to face the fact that the other warrior classes have to try several times harder than them. 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sarius.9285]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

current Form, I don't think the new support Warrior will see much play. 

I'm just worried if it will finally be able to provide 100%Quickness and maybe work with a Shout Heal Build. That would be enough for me to play it in Raids 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course you don't think it will change much. You are one of the top doomers on this sub.

Most of snowcrow's warrior channel says these are good changes design wise so now it all comes to down to numbers and they can be easily tweaken.

I'm not a doomer. I'm a realist. 😉

And the truth is that I does not matter how much you change, buff and tweak things as long it's not even near the power level of Firebrand and friends. 

Address the Elefant in the room. Not the broken vase it caused. 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[eXruina.4956]

1 hour ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course you don't think it will change much. You are one of the top doomers on this sub.

Most of snowcrow's warrior channel says these are good changes design wise so now it all comes to down to numbers and they can be easily tweaken.

its easy to say numbers can be easily tweaked, but historically they don't often tweak numbers to fix things even when it will be easy. just look at warrior in competitive modes after feb 2020 patch as an example. would be easy to tweak the numbers to being warrior back into viability but after almost 3 years now. nothing. thats just one example over these years.

 

easy doesn't matter if they don't do the work.

 

that said i think the banner changes look like its in the right direction. hopefully the missing elements will be relevant enough.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

29 minutes ago, Sarius.9285 said:

I'm just worried if it will finally be able to provide 100%Quickness and maybe work with a Shout Heal Build. That would be enough for me to play it in Raids 

But here's the question. 

Even if you could. Why would your group agree to let you play that roll if there is a far superior version of you?

A superior version that will always be in high demand AND supply. 

[eXruina.4956]

2 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

But here's the question. 

Even if you could. Why would your group agree to let you play that roll if there is a far superior version of you?

A superior version that will always be in high demand AND supply. 

this is exactly my point.

 

some seem to think people will settle for a mediocre quickness war, when in reality people will still be asking for the far superior quick heal brand or condi quick brand for their groups.

 

while warriors receive the casual "can't you read?' comment.

[Gorem.8104]

2 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course you don't think it will change much. You are one of the top doomers on this sub.

Most of snowcrow's warrior channel says these are good changes design wise so now it all comes to down to numbers and they can be easily tweaken.

 

Doomers? Is that a hip way of saying someone else has a different opinion then mine so they must be wrong? 
Like, how dare people want the class to be as good as it used to be 8 years ago right? Straight to the ignore list with you. 

[Sarius.9285]

54 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Why would your group agree to let you play that roll if there is a far superior version of you?

that's the thing. if they wouldn't want me playing what I want to play, they can kick me, or I'll just leave. I mean I have already almost exclusively raided on no banner warrior before the changes and I'm already sitting on 750 LI

[DanAlcedo.3281]

11 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

It's a hip way of saying that person particulary like him or even you will find something to complain about every single time where there's slighty opportunity for it. There we have some promising looking changes that appears somehow decent design-wise, yet he totally ignores it and decides to claim points which match his biased "poor warrior, evil anet" image. Exacly what doomer would do.

If you really want to care about the class you love, you should be willing to notice when things go badly and also when they go in the right direction. 

You seem to have more knowledge then me. 

So please. Tell me where exactly the new Banner will see play? What's good about them? How are they gonna compete against the kit of Firebrand? 

I'm apparently blind. So please tell me Ohh wise man. 

[Naxx.6203]

5 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You seem to have more knowledge then me. 

So please. Tell me where exactly the new Banner will see play? What's good about them? How are they gonna compete against the kit of Firebrand? 

I'm apparently blind. So please tell me Ohh wise man. 

There you have some bullet points from SC people who actually have some knowledge and foundation to make an assumption on these changes instead of doomers circle jerk on this sub.

+ baseline banners utilities are quite solid now and are on par with modern utilities, so this is good for ALL warrior builds regardless of quickness. This is very good.

+ Heal Shout Quickness Warrior is possible with this change with high BD, and could be an alright alternative healer due to new access to Barriers, Aegis, Stab.

+ Power Quick War can take Tactics and Discipline and do ok damage, it requires a lot less boon duration than before so worth testing.

+ Core Quickness War could potentially be decent with enough copium.

And small note from me in regards to wvw - aegis/stab/resolution/superspeed on-drop effects of banners could easily be used in WvW zerg/gvg scenarios for pushes/retreats.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

6 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

There you have some bullet points from SC people who actually have some knowledge and foundation to make an assumption on these changes instead of doomers circle jerk on this sub.

+ baseline banners utilities are quite solid now and are on par with modern utilities, so this is good for ALL warrior builds regardless of quickness. This is very good.

+ Heal Shout Quickness Warrior is possible with this change with high BD, and could be an alright alternative healer due to new access to Barriers, Aegis, Stab.

+ Power Quick War can take Tactics and Discipline and do ok damage, it requires a lot less boon duration than before so worth testing.

+ Core Quickness War could potentially be decent with enough copium.

And small note from me in regards to wvw - aegis/stab/resolution/superspeed on-drop effects of banners could easily be used in WvW zerg/gvg scenarios for pushes/retreats.

Counterpoint to the 4 first points: Quick brand exists. 

Counterpoint to the WvW one: Warrior/Spellbreaker was already on a harsh decline before the Bubble nerf. Now you see it maybe once per week in a Zerg. Do you actually think that 2 improved banner skills would change anything? 

 

[Naxx.6203]

5 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

he totally ignores it and decides to claim points which match his biased "poor warrior, evil anet" image. Exacly what doomer would do.

See I read you like a book.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

There you have some bullet points from SC people who actually have some knowledge and foundation to make an assumption on these changes instead of doomers circle jerk on this sub.

+ baseline banners utilities are quite solid now and are on par with modern utilities, so this is good for ALL warrior builds regardless of quickness. This is very good.

+ Heal Shout Quickness Warrior is possible with this change with high BD, and could be an alright alternative healer due to new access to Barriers, Aegis, Stab.

+ Power Quick War can take Tactics and Discipline and do ok damage, it requires a lot less boon duration than before so worth testing.

+ Core Quickness War could potentially be decent with enough copium.

And small note from me in regards to wvw - aegis/stab/resolution/superspeed on-drop effects of banners could easily be used in WvW zerg/gvg scenarios for pushes/retreats.

Are they making those statements based off of the preview we all got or off of some private communications with a dev?

 

Because those all highly depend on the numbers released on Tuesday next week. If the numbers are high, then they will be great utilities on all game modes, if not then they will not get taken over FB in PvE and in competitive play they'll see niche uses.

 

I agree that they are going to be more modern are more useful overall, but to compete with FB requires some very high numbers, and Dan is right in his criticism in that regard.

[Naxx.6203]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Are they making those statements based off of the preview we all got or off of some private communications with a dev?

 

Because those all highly depend on the numbers released on Tuesday next week. If the numbers are high, then they will be great utilities on all game modes, if not then they will not get taken over FB in PvE and in competitive play they'll see niche uses.

 

I agree that they are going to be more modern are more useful overall, but to compete with FB requires some very high numbers, and Dan is right in his criticism in that regard.

It's based on preview we've gotten. But as I said in my earlier comment, numbers can be always tweaken neverthless the core design behind these changes is enough to make assumptions like those SC people had made.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Nawrotex.9521

[DanAlcedo.3281]

15 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

See I read you like a book.

"I gonna say 4+4 =9 and I know he is going to say it 8" 

You know what? How about a little bet? 

500g on the table that on the day before the next patch late August, not one warrior spec has enough usage that it shows an icon on Wingman. 

You are so sure about it so it should not be a problem right? 

Edit:Both in Raids and Strikes. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

It's based on preview we've gotten. But as I said in my earlier comment, numbers can be always tweaken neverthless the core design behind these changes is enough to make assumptions like those SC people had made.

Tactics banner when traited will have to be very high uptime by itself to enable a heal/quick build. As in at least 75% uptime after Alacrity and 100% BD.

[Naxx.6203]

4 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

"I gonna say 4+4 =9 and I know he is going to say it 8" 

You know what? How about a little bet? 

500g on the table that on the day before the next patch late August, not one warrior spec has enough usage that it shows an icon on Wingman. 

You are so sure about it so it should not be a problem right? 

I'm not really sure wheter you are just plain dumb or too stuborn to get it but it all comes down to numbers and we won't know them till tuesday so making bets now is kinda pointless, yup?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

I'm not really sure wheter you are just plain dumb or too stuborn to get it but it all comes down to numbers and we won't know them till tuesday so making bets now is kinda pointless, yup?

Even in the best case scenario it's will still be worse then Firebrand. 

Also cool that you suddenly acknowledge that we don't know everything. You were so sure about Warrior being good before. What changed your opinion so quickly? 

Why not bet? You can't loose right? 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Naxx.6203]

24 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Even in the best case scenario it's will still be worse then Firebrand. 

Also cool that you suddenly acknowledge that we don't know everything. You were so sure about Warrior being good before. What changed your opinion so quickly? 

Why not bet? You can't loose right? 

Of course it will be worse than Firebrand. Anything can't compete currently with FB/HaM for meta spot. Why? Because their core design is just too bloated with useful stuff compared to others. It's a problem with them being too strong and not others being too weak. There is healDruid, healTempest, qScrapper, qHarb, healHerald, qHerald and all of these builds can't really keep up with FB/qFB/HaM even tho they still all are very good, viable builds which are still played in various places and will get job done.  

It all comes to giving warrior good and viable boon support/dps build and these changes on paper looks like they could allow it. It won't outclass the FB or qFB but certainly could place it as considerable option for those who feel like playing it. 

But still, I don't expect you to get it. Fact that experienced people from SC are able to notice the possibilities of these changes and some dummy from forums is just too fixated on his beliefs, truly says it all.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Nawrotex.9521

[Geoff Fey.1035]

The August 2nd change specifically will not change much.

It was stated early on that it would focus on Chronomancer weapon coefficients and Warrior Banners--although we assumed there'd be a little bit more to it.

August 23rd there is another interim balance patch scheduled:

Quote

FYI: we’ve also added an additional balance update to our release schedule on August 23, focused on buffing a larger set of specializations. We’ll have more information on what that build includes in the coming weeks. Thank you for your continued patience and support as we address your feedback from the June 28 professions update.

 

They're tinkering, and while Mechanist and Firebrand are still insanely overperforming, the changes for Warrior Banners shows that ANet has some good ideas in the pipeline--we'll see how it all pans out.

Warrior just simply needs a massive dedicated rework. There's no scenario where a Warrior (including the High DPS Bladesworn) is 1:1 better than the alternative professions due to others' abilities to just do everything.

100% DPS + 20% CC will always be inferior to 70% DPS + 10% CC + 40% Support (percentages used for optics only).

Covering more roles and offering more to the team is always better than simply providing high damage because being able to CC or Support keeps the team alive longer and makes mechanics less of an issue.

You can argue that "high DPS does the same thing", but it leaves less room for error (i.e. wipe). By cracking open the meta so that there is overlapping support in teams, it makes it so PUGs are more easily able to complete challenging content--whether this is to the benefit or detriment of the community is a different argument altogether.

PvP/WvW related--really all skills should be split between the two modes. I know ANet doesn't like balancing 2 sets of skills but really Competitive Modes in GW2 are sooooo vastly different from PvE that it might as well be another game entirely. By divorcing absolutely everything (yes, even auto-attacks) then it lets the Competitive Team make balance changes in a vacuum. They can still adhere to "X skill still does CC" so the skills are roughly similar between modes but it makes it so that if X is overperforming in WvW, you aren't brutalizing it in PvE by nerfing.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

15 minutes ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course it will be worse than Firebrand. Anything can't compete currently with FB/HaM for meta spot. Why? Because their core design is just too bloated with useful stuff compared to others. It's a problem with them being too strong and not others being too weak. There is healDruid, healTempest, qScrapper, qHarb, healHerald, qHerald and all of these builds can't really keep up with FB/qFB/HaM even tho they still all are very good, viable builds which are still played in various places and will get job done.  

It all comes to giving warrior good and viable boon support/dps build and these changes on paper looks like they could allow it. It won't outclass the FB or qFB but certainly could place it as considerable option for those who feel like playing it. 

But still, I don't expect you to get it. Fact that experienced people from SC are able to notice the possibilities of these changes and some dummy from forums is just too fixated on his beliefs, truly says it all.

Let's say I get paid 10000 dollars a month. 

You get paid 2000 dollars a month. 

We both do the exact same work. 

 

Now you get an increase to 3000 dollars.

Is it good that you got a raise? Yes. 

Did the raise do what it's supposed to do in making both our income the same? Nope. 

 I don't care if Warrior is 10% better. 

 

It's s simple matter of X > Y. 

As long as X is bigger then Y. Y has no reason to exist. 

Edit: Also, good God you are a SC fan boy. 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Kodama.6453]

50 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Even in the best case scenario it's will still be worse then Firebrand. 

Also cool that you suddenly acknowledge that we don't know everything. You were so sure about Warrior being good before. What changed your opinion so quickly? 

Why not bet? You can't loose right? 

He said the skills are well designed now. But if they will be strong and therefore used depends not just on their design, but also their numbers, which we don't have yet.

So the point still stands. Banners get a rework that actually fixes many of their design flaws. We will see if the numbers are there, if not, they can still buff these in the future and they might see play.

And yeah, we get it, firebrand is the best quickness giver there is currently. But it is still nice that they fix banners for now. Or you really want to tell me you will reject these changes just because "firebrand still better" and therefore "it doesn't change anything"?
Because I highly doubt that many warrior players would agree with that.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Kodama.6453