I don't think this patch will change much.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

Of course you don't think it will change much. You are one of the top doomers on this sub.

Most of snowcrow's warrior channel says these are good changes design wise so now it all comes to down to numbers and they can be easily tweaken.

No doubt, the banner design looks good. I'm actually excited about it because it gives banners high value in all game modes but for team support as a warrior ... I don't see it, not yet. The details need to be looked at and Anet has a reputation for not getting the details correct. When it all comes down to numbers and how easily they are tweaked ... that's when Anet does not shine. 

I think people forget the goal here was that banners were the team support toolset. Before all this mess, banners got you a guaranteed spot in a team. Is this design going to get you that? Let's wait and see I guess ... but I don't think it will. People are distracted by the good design here. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jzaku.9765]

This is like the first time in 10 years Core Warrior has gotten any amount of buffs to it's design to keep up with the rest of the game. Regardless of how good quickness-dps Warrior turns out, the fact that Core Warrior now has access to low CD, low opportunity cost, teamwide Stab and Aegis is massive. Only 2 other classes can do this via simply trading out their utility skill like Warrior now can. 

And I would just shelve Heal Warrior untill Warrior finally gets a dedicated support Elite Spec - It would be really stupid for Core Warrior to be able to compete with Elite Specs entirely dedicated to the role. Presumably this is why the Banners still don't give Prot - so there's design space for the next Warrior Elite Spec to fill.

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually I don't think it will change much either, and I would be the opposite of a doomer here. 

No doubt, the banner design looks good. I'm actually excited about it because it gives banners high value in all game modes but for team support as a warrior ... I don't see it, not yet. The details need to be looked at and Anet has a reputation for not getting the details correct.

I think people forget the goal here was that banners were the team support toolset. Before all this mess, banners got you a guaranteed spot in a team. Is this design going to get you that? Let's wait and see I guess ... but I don't think it will. 

 

They don't need to guarantee you a spot in the team. The skills have value on their own now, as you mentioned. That is already a really big plus.

Banners right now are a complete joke. A skill that does nothing but giving you 33% regeneration uptime in AoE is not in the same ball park as other utility skills, it is even not as strong as some minor traits in the game. These changes give banners a reason to get slotted in, independant of the whole quickness providing shtick.

And if banners can make warrior a viable quickness provider, that's already good enough. It doesn't need to beat firebrand, it just needs to be viable.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They don't need to guarantee you a spot in the team. The skills have value on their own now, as you mentioned. That is already a really big plus.

Banners right now are a complete joke. A skill that does nothing but giving you 33% regeneration uptime in AoE is not in the same ball park as other utility skills, it is even not as strong as some minor traits in the game. These changes give banners a reason to get slotted in, independant of the whole quickness providing shtick.

And if banners can make warrior a viable quickness provider, that's already good enough. It doesn't need to beat firebrand, it just needs to be viable.

OK settle down ... I didn't say it needs to beat firebrand. 

What does viable quickness provider mean? For me, that means 100% uptime; for other people that means mobility. I'm already seeing that we are going to likely be very limited in our build for a team support and probably need some combo of banners, Warhorn and Martial Cadence. Until I see the numbers (that Anet is notoriously BAD at 'tweaking'), I don't see banners being a 'viable' quickness provider ... and that was the WHOLE POINT of Anet's rework of banners in the first place. 

People being distracted by shinies here ... if banners are not AT LEAST as good as the old versions of banners in making warriors attractive for a team ... Anet FAILED in their goal of integrating warriors into the quickness role. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[DanAlcedo.3281]

23 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

He said the skills are well designed now. But if they will be strong and therefore used depends not just on their design, but also their numbers, which we don't have yet.

So the point still stands. Banners get a rework that actually fixes many of their design flaws. We will see if the numbers are there, if not, they can still buff these in the future and they might see play.

And yeah, we get it, firebrand is the best quickness giver there is currently. But it is still nice that they fix banners for now. Or you really want to tell me you will reject these changes just because "firebrand still better" and therefore "it doesn't change anything"?
Because I highly doubt that many warrior players would agree with that.

I dont get the well designed part.

The core problem wasnt fixed. They are still immobile.

As long as that isnt fixed we will always be weaker then support that can use its skills on the run. Except maybe on a Target Golem Boss.

Also others dont need to aim the skills. We have to choose a location to drop the banner. Others can just go "press button on cd".

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK settle down ... I didn't say it needs to beat firebrand. 

What does viable quickness provider mean? For me, that means 100% uptime. I'm already seeing that we are going to likely be very limited in our build for a team support and probably need some combo of banners, Warhorn and Martial Cadence. Until I see the numbers (that Anet is notoriously BAD at 'tweaking'), I don't see banners being a 'viable' quickness provider ... and that was the WHOLE POINT of Anet's rework of banners in the first place. 

Warrior currently already is able to provide 100% quickness uptime, I don't think that this is going down with this rework.

And you directly said "banners guaranteed a team slot before, will this rework achieve that? likely not" and that statement, to be frank, makes no sense. The goal isn't to give you a guaranteed slot.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Warrior currently already is able to provide 100% quickness uptime, I don't think that this is going down with this rework.

And you directly said "banners guaranteed a team slot before, will this rework achieve that? likely not" and that statement, to be frank, makes no sense. The goal isn't to give you a guaranteed slot.

Yeah, an I think we can admit that this current team quickness build is mega trash and no one in their right mind would play it. Even Anet admits they miss the mark on banners with the last patch so ... it's just garbage. No need to defend this current iteration. 

Seems to me, your standards aren't very high here. Again, the goal here was to integrate warriors into the quickness role and part of that was a banner rework. I'm dubious Anet will accomplish that with a 'not mega trash' build ... EVEN if this banner design is really good. There wasn't anything wrong with banners in the first place ... so my expectation is that banners are AT LEAST as good as they were before in a team support role or better. The measure of that will be how well warriors are accepted in a team in a quickness role.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I dont get the well designed part.

The core problem wasnt fixed. They are still immobile.

As long as that isnt fixed we will always be weaker then support that can use its skills on the run. Except maybe on a Target Golem Boss.

And that's why you got called a doomer. Because you competely ignore the positive aspects of these reworks.

The only thing that is still stationary for the banners are the pulsing boons. They get half the cooldown they have rn, 30 seconds. The new effects they added are drop only, so you throw them on your team and can move on.

The only thing you are missing out on by the banners not coming with you is their pulsing boons, which most of them are not that important anyway. The new drop effects and the quickness on drop are what's most important about them.

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems to me, your standards aren't very high here. Again, the goal here was to integrate warriors into the quickness role and part of that was a banner rework. I'm dubious Anet will accomplish that with a 'not mega trash' build. 

Not at all, but I was pointing out that your statements were missing the point.You said "a viable quickness support should provide 100% uptime". Which banners already did. That was really not that much the problem here.

You know what was a problem? That banners did literally nothing else but helping your quickness uptime. Banners in their core functionality are a joke right now. They do nothing but pulse 1 (mostly weak) boon.

Look how scrapper provides quickness. They also take gyros for that task. But gyros do stuff besides providing quickness. You got CC there. A great damage skill. AoE stealth. Group stability and projectile hate from a toolbelt. Massive team condi cleanse. Damage reduction for the entire team + personal barrier for the scrapper.

This was a problem and it gets fixed now. Because banners now get a drop effect which makes them actually do something besides just giving quickness and 1 other random boon.Now you can do stuff with them and that might help the viability of the build alot.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not at all, but I was pointing out that your statements were missing the point.You said "a viable quickness support should provide 100% uptime". Which banners already did. That was really not that much the problem here.

 

Well, yes it's a problem because it did it in a way that made your whole build ineffective and worthless. I mean, even Anet is saying banners are currently bad. What more do you want? I mean, maybe that's not a problem to you but it IS a problem considering the whole purpose of banner rework was to integrate warriors into a quickness team role. Obviously the reworked did not do that, EVEN with whatever uptime they gave banners and Anet admits it.  

Again, I'm waiting to see the numbers on it but ... I don't have whole lot of confidence they will be right. The problem that needs to be addressed here is the one Anet that used to gut banners in the first place; warrior quickness role integration. I get it's really easy to be distracted by a well designed feature, but if the design doesn't address that problem, it fails in it's purpose no matter how good it will be. 

I think the thread is a little misleading ... banners may change alot of things but maybe not the thing they were intended to change. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

There you have some bullet points from SC people who actually have some knowledge and foundation to make an assumption on these changes instead of doomers circle jerk on this sub.

+ baseline banners utilities are quite solid now and are on par with modern utilities, so this is good for ALL warrior builds regardless of quickness. This is very good.

+ Heal Shout Quickness Warrior is possible with this change with high BD, and could be an alright alternative healer due to new access to Barriers, Aegis, Stab.

+ Power Quick War can take Tactics and Discipline and do ok damage, it requires a lot less boon duration than before so worth testing.

+ Core Quickness War could potentially be decent with enough copium.

And small note from me in regards to wvw - aegis/stab/resolution/superspeed on-drop effects of banners could easily be used in WvW zerg/gvg scenarios for pushes/retreats.

To 1: Yes baseline utility is great, no question about it.

To 2: I am sorry to say this but I doubt that someone from SC would say this. Heal warrior is a meme in PvE. Shouts compete with banners, only some minor barrier on wh5. You cant use healing Shouts if you need martial cadence. ALL your healing is on 3 UTILITIES. In what universe would you take a heal war who has no prot or resolution. I mean people complain how awful heal alac tempest is because it cant take aura heal while having water skills, water overload, passive healing and so on. But warrior is alright?

To 3: You dont know quickness numbers yet. It could be 2 seconds per banner which is already more than before (2/30 to 3/60). So its highly possible that you still need high BD. 

To 4: True, it might even be the best option to run quickness.

 

There is no confirmation whatsoever that they moved away from their view that banners shouldnt cover quickness alone.

And instead of insulting other people you might want to think for yourself once instead of copy pasting apparently. How are you any better again?

Edited July 28, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[alazar.1907]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

He said the skills are well designed now. But if they will be strong and therefore used depends not just on their design, but also their numbers, which we don't have yet.

So the point still stands. Banners get a rework that actually fixes many of their design flaws. We will see if the numbers are there, if not, they can still buff these in the future and they might see play.

And yeah, we get it, firebrand is the best quickness giver there is currently. But it is still nice that they fix banners for now. Or you really want to tell me you will reject these changes just because "firebrand still better" and therefore "it doesn't change anything"?
Because I highly doubt that many warrior players would agree with that.

 

I don't know, to me it looks like these changes will bring warrior back into relevancy, albeit not top tier. They will be viable to play even if they're not the best choice in most cases. That alone is a step in the right direction. 

Side note, open world does matter, just not in a META group context, it's what most casual players end up doing 90% of the time. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by alazar.1907

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

You know what's sad?

 

Thief got a real support build before Warrior.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[JTGuevara.9018]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I can make a 30 second aegis/resistance utility work. It depends on what the uptime is. If it's generous there might be ways to leverage them  for pvp /wvw.

It has the potential to not be enough though. And if they wipe their hands off and call it a day then, nothing will change. The core/spellbreaker/zerker players will continue to languish, occasionally having their complaints stifled by people wielding bladesworn as a cudgel, because facetanking everything is okay suddenly if it means people don't have to face the fact that the other warrior classes have to try several times harder than them. 

 

Yup. Until the NEW flavor of the month comes out(4th expansion) and the bladesworn gets gutted for the new shiny thing and joins the rest of us lmao!

 

Warriors, berzerkers, spellbreakers: "So, how's that shout build going ^_^ ?"

Bladesworns: "........."

[Nephalem.8921]

5 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

I'm not really sure wheter you are just plain dumb or too stuborn to get it but it all comes down to numbers and we won't know them till tuesday so making bets now is kinda pointless, yup?

axe berserker does as much dps as qharb. with full dps utilities. There is no way quick warr would be able to compete with fb since it needs different utilities and tactics which costs massive dps. Not even sure if it could compete with herald.

Quickness bladesworn could maybe be on scrapper level if the base quickness duration on banners is very high. Its not doomers. Its knowing anet for 10years and if it isnt the special spec of a dev it wont have high numbers. The problem is that the tactics + discipline requirement alone costs massive amounts of dps. tactics bladesworn with 2 banners was a ~31k build before the patch and you will take 3 banners and boon duration on top. the overall power nerf nerfed the old bladesworn banner build with just 2 banners and 0 bd to sub quickness fb levels of dmg. Now imagine another banner and bd.

The numbers need to be insane to be on scrapper level. Close to 0% bd levels of insane without warhorn. 

[Kayberz.5346]

1 hour ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Yup. Until the NEW flavor of the month comes out(4th expansion) and the bladesworn gets gutted for the new shiny thing and joins the rest of us lmao!

 

Warriors, berzerkers, spellbreakers: "So, how's that shout build going ^_^ ?"

Bladesworns: "........."

Cope

[KryTiKaL.3125]

17 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Cope

That isn't cope. Thats just following trend. It has happened in literally every single expansion that they have released. For every class. The new Elite Spec tends to be power crept a good degree higher than whatever existed prior to it.

[Mungrul.9358]

9 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

There you have some bullet points from SC people who actually have some knowledge and foundation to make an assumption on these changes instead of doomers circle jerk on this sub.

 

The problem with SC is that even if they're not consciously planning it, the pressure from them (and every streamer or other influential player with a focus on raids) is to eventually make every profession capable of performing every role with 100% uptime.

I say the devs should be ignoring the community (especially the "High End" PvE one) and nerfing every profession, so that none of them are capable of maintaining 100% uptime in any role.

 

Where's the challenge if enemies can't get past your boon spam?

That's not skill, that's just memorising a rotation.

 

This would promote collaborative buildcraft instead of single-character buildcraft, with people having to cover gaps when others are facing cooldowns.

 

Warrior is arguably already in that position, being a far more "honest" profession than virtually all the others, which is why it feels inflexible in the current meta. It benefits incredibly from other professions providing buffs, but currently, that's not enough, as those others are equally as good at pumping out damage as the Warrior they're buffing whilst also providing utility.

 

If someone builds for utility, their DPS should suffer dramatically. I'd even argue their personal durability should suffer, promoting the kind of play where people have a vested interest in protecting the "Back Line".

 

Now every profession should be able to build for every role, don't get me wrong.

Just not with 100% uptime.

 

And make those role contributions unique, leveraging profession mechanics instead of just being copy-pastes of skills and traits between professions.

If you don't, you neuter profession character and flavour, and everyone may as well just play the same profession (which is what we're seeing at the moment).

 

Of course the other side of this is that ANet would then have to go back through the game looking at encounter design to accommodate such changes, and we all know that they're very reluctant to visit old content.

 

So I don't see this happening at all, even though it's what should happen.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Mungrul.9358
Inflexible is more accurate than underpowered.

[Mungrul.9358]

Also, while in the context of the current meta, these changes to banners might be considered "good", I'm alarmed there's no mention of changes to what happens when you pick up a banner. Are we still going to see blank skill bars? Will picking them up have an effect on their cooldowns?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah, an I think we can admit that this current team quickness build is mega trash and no one in their right mind would play it. Even Anet admits they miss the mark on banners with the last patch so ... it's just garbage. No need to defend this current iteration. 

Seems to me, your standards aren't very high here. Again, the goal here was to integrate warriors into the quickness role and part of that was a banner rework. I'm dubious Anet will accomplish that with a 'not mega trash' build ... EVEN if this banner design is really good. There wasn't anything wrong with banners in the first place ... so my expectation is that banners are AT LEAST as good as they were before in a team support role or better. The measure of that will be how well warriors are accepted in a team in a quickness role.  

Ok I'll bite

 

Who are you and wheres the real Obtena

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And that's why you got called a doomer. Because you competely ignore the positive aspects of these reworks.

 

I don't blame him for not being easily made optimistic by patch previews. Once it's live and we can see how those pieces work,  we can bring out the optimism.

 

Yall are so quick to call people doomer when theres an easily verifiable reason for them to be pessimistic,  just because Snowcrows says it might be good, while also admittimg it could land flat if the numbers aren't right?

 

Get real.  Numbers not landing right has been the meta. The least you could do is understand why that negativity is so prominent. 

[JTGuevara.9018]

3 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Cope

Pffft...BWAHAHAHAH...hit a little too close to home, didn't it?

[ThunderX.6591]

17 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Also, while in the context of the current meta, these changes to banners might be considered "good", I'm alarmed there's no mention of changes to what happens when you pick up a banner. Are we still going to see blank skill bars? Will picking them up have an effect on their cooldowns?

New banners cannot be picked up (was in the note), duration is 15 secs, with 30 secs cooldown, so we end up with around 15 secs without boons.......... on this part of the changes, they are worse then even the current banners we have.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Also, while in the context of the current meta, these changes to banners might be considered "good", I'm alarmed there's no mention of changes to what happens when you pick up a banner. Are we still going to see blank skill bars? Will picking them up have an effect on their cooldowns?

They stated in the preview that they will no longer be able to be picked up. There is no more CD reduction. Powerful on summon effect, followed by 15s of pulsing boons at at higher duration than previously, on a 30s CD.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

New banners cannot be picked up (was in the note), duration is 15 secs, with 30 secs cooldown, so we end up with around 15 secs without boons.......... on this part of the changes, they are worse then even the current banners we have.

The total duration from the pulses if people stay in range the entire time will cover the CD at varying levels of BD for each boon.