why isn't WvW balanced seperately or put on the PVP balance teams shoulders and use PvP gear instead of PvE

[pikalovr.4613]

i just don't get it like what's the reasoning here? i'm genuinely curious

[TheGrimm.5624]

WvW should have their own balance team. Part of the issue with using the sPvP team is they think it can be balanced whereas a full WvW team would know it can not be and changes would be different. There is a big difference when you try and balance for 5v5 all standing on the same 15' foot circle on the ground vs a 50v50v50 in an open field, or a 1v3v6 with lots of line of sight spots. You can't balance 1v1 in these aspects but you can watch for outliners and builds not used at all for tuning needs. As far as PvP gear, no. WvW is end game where people have been working at getting gear for years to outfit toons to play with, that's what makes it end game. sPvP is the concept jump in and out for 15 minutes matches, WvW is where you go for hours on end. And yes I entered WvW in white gear many moons back underleveled so understand it can be rough, but you can get good gear fast when at level and you play for short order of time. This is also why there is a limited score level difference in exotic to ascended and why I still support there should be no stat difference in Ascended to Leggo since Leggo was already good before armory and now its huge in not having to build another set of  Ascended if you wanted to change builds out. But no, think the sPvP balance would fall apart if it allowed for one side to use twice as many in a fight as the other side had. That grass is not any greener on the other side. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by TheGrimm.5624
sentence missed second half

[Kozumi.5816]

50 minutes ago, pikalovr.4613 said:

i just don't get it like what's the reasoning here? i'm genuinely curious

WvW will be trash until they start using the SPvP amulet/sigil/rune system and SPvP balancing.

Anyone who disagrees just likes abusing broken things and doesn't like good PvP.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[pikalovr.4613]

10 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

WvW will be trash until they start using the SPvP amulet/sigil/rune system and SPvP balancing.

Anyone who disagrees just likes abusing broken things and doesn't like good PvP.

like i could understand not wanting to create an entire other balancing team but at least make it on the shoulders of PvP not PvE. thats the biggest head scratcher for me why is it tied to PvE and not PvP at all

[jaif.3518]

10 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

WvW will be trash until they start using the SPvP amulet/sigil/rune system and SPvP balancing.

Anyone who disagrees just likes abusing broken things and doesn't like good PvP.

 

Your changes only help balance small-scale, which is just a tiny piece of WvW.  Boon balls, population,  server hopping, spies - these and other components are much more important, IMO.

[Kozumi.5816]

5 minutes ago, jaif.3518 said:

 

Your changes only help balance small-scale, which is just a tiny piece of WvW.  Boon balls, population,  server hopping, spies - these and other components are much more important, IMO.

Boon balls don't exist in SPvP. Stacking actually gets you killed and is terrible to do. SPvP balancing also removes boon balls and makes small scale better. I don't know what balancing around "large scale" means, since WvW's current balance is absolute gutter trash at both large and small scale. At least SPvP is good at something.

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

WvW will be trash until they start using the SPvP amulet/sigil/rune system and SPvP balancing.

Anyone who disagrees just likes abusing broken things and doesn't like good PvP.

 

I disagree, and sure with 23 different toons I must be a master of abusing the system, or it could be there are a ton of different builds in WvW that work in various situations. That's the thing sPvP is a more simplified game mode, WvW is much more complex and varied by its size alone. Instead of rotating between three points you might be rotating thru 13 points, and that's if it a single map you are hitting. There are also more roles in WvW, sorry I won't say you are wrong since its your opinion, but sorry you make no arguments that would convince me the sPvP fits here at all. Still -1 from me for the idea. Spend the time and create your buildouts for the role that toon is planning on trying to fill, and if you encounter one that counters the one you have, expect that to happen. That's what makes each encounter in WvW different and has keep the game mode with any population since you never know what's next.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Yes because sPvP balance is removing amulets, runes, sigils, and more importantly build diversity as if there is any left in the game.

[Kozumi.5816]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes because sPvP balance is removing amulets, runes, sigils, and more importantly build diversity as if there is any left in the game.

Yes, sometimes you need to take away the kids toys if he/she is ruining the others kids fun.

  

14 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I disagree, and sure with 23 different toons I must be a master of abusing the system

A great example is they nerfed stealth durations in SPvP then took another year to fix it in WvW. Why? Who knows, WvW balance is trash.

Another great example: They removed all tanky amulets in SPvP because they ruined the game, yet WvW is all about tanky supports in groups and condi bunkers lowman.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yes, sometimes you need to take away the kids toys if he/she is ruining the others kids fun.

  

A great example is they nerfed stealth durations in SPvP then took another year to fix it in WvW. Why? Who knows, WvW balance is trash.

Another great example: They removed all tanky amulets in SPvP because they ruined the game, yet WvW is all about tanky supports in groups and condi bunkers lowman.

 

You give a great example why you can't use the same balance sPvP team as a WvW balance team. Stop and re-read what you wrote. 'They removed tanky amulets because they runied the game.' The other way that was put was the take down time was too long for the game mode. They said it themselves it made game play too slow. They nerfed the damage in WvW because the take down time was too short. These are opposite thoughts hence why you can't use the same thoughts when considering balancing the two game modes. And no not everyone agrees the removal of those amulets was a good idea. So again, thanks, no, keep that in sPvP, its not for WvW. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by TheGrimm.5624
added implied words

[subversiontwo.7501]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:18 PM, pikalovr.4613 said:

i just don't get it like what's the reasoning here? i'm genuinely curious

There are a bunch of sound reasons for it, not limited to:

They are modes that scale differently. There is no ~50v50 sPvP and even if team-fights there have become more normative in recent tournaments and such, even ~5v5 situations are not really defining the mode in sPvP. This makes WvW less stat sensitive.

There's also the question of time and respecting players time. We're 10 years into this game now and there might have been more sense to this topic earlier on and before a slew of additions to the mode (like legendary armor). There are plenty of people still playing, who can be rather important to the mode, who have spent thousands of hours on building their accounts up. Simply taking all that time away from them, at this point in the game's lifespan, could be far more problematic for the developer and the game than it may first appear to you.

There are some roundabout "leopards ate my face"-risks to it, where, for example, a new player wanting to get into a squad feel restricted by a lack of access to gear and builds but if you disrespect the time of whoever makes those squads, they may quit and there may be no more such content to join into.

As always with these things, nothing is set in stone: You can balance the ~1-75 scale of WvW using sPvP stats if you wanted to and you can choose to disrespect your players without everyone quitting at once (if WvW isn't already an obvious example of that, I don't know what is, hehe). However, I believe that most of the time when these topics come up, the people who bring them up do not see or understand this full picture and wouldn't be happy with such changes anyway. They may, for example, exclusively play small scale or even alone and do not regard the full ~1-75 scale of WvW. They then misplace that discussion with topics of sPvP gearing or class balance.

So you could use sPvP stats and you could balance them out to some sort of common bracket scaling like 1-5-15-25-50 and make sure that the balance excels in the 5-25 player span but most people who would argue for sPvP stats do it from a perspective of only 1-5 balance (like in sPvP, a mode that never scales beyond 5): Where damage is less volatile but things like gear-stats and gear-quality (ie., exotics vs. ascendeds) are more important. It's much easier to drop into 50-scale on exotics and feel more involved in the content.

Ontop of that there's how messages get amplified. There's quite a big overrepresentation of players who are both alone and relatively new on these forums. That has always been the case with how WvW communities are laid out (servers) and the broader community is managed (eg., the decision to ban matchup threads here, to avoid conflict on the forums, even though the mode to a significant part revolves around matchups, made players find other means of communication very early on), but it is steadily becomming more prominent: So if you post here you are going to see some very common responses that are not very representative and you're going to see some responses (like this one) that aren't necessarily very controversial - simply answering your question and trying to provide some broader context - that are going to stick out like a sore thumb here 😄 .

Edited August 13, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Kozumi.5816]

22 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

You give a great example why you can't use the same balance sPvP team as a WvW balance team. Stop and re-read what you wrote. 'They removed tanky amulets because they runied the game.' The other way that was put was the take down time was too long for the game mode. They said it themselves it made game play too slow. They nerfed the damage in WvW because the take down time was too short. These are opposite thoughts hence why you can't use the same thoughts when considering balancing the two game modes. And no not everyone agrees the removal of those amulets was a good idea. So again, thanks, no, keep that in sPvP, its not for WvW. 

You are the reason why WvW will slowly lose players until they abandon it entirely like dungeons.

It doesn't mater what you like, you are an extreme minority and should not be designed for. For the mode to actually grow and stay alive you need to design for the majority; whom want what I suggest.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Kozumi has a point. It's obvious wvw needs a pvp balance approach instead of the huge kitten numbers one can dish out.
I won't go as far as a pvp amulet/sigil/runes but at very least celestial and trailblazer should be long gone from the game mode.

[jaif.3518]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:26 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Boon balls don't exist in SPvP. Stacking actually gets you killed and is terrible to do. SPvP balancing also removes boon balls and makes small scale better. I don't know what balancing around "large scale" means, since WvW's current balance is absolute gutter trash at both large and small scale. At least SPvP is good at something.

Boon balls dont exist because their are only 5 people to a side.  The game changes when you have 20+ people on support and hybrid builds.

[pikalovr.4613]

4 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

There are a bunch of sound reasons for it, not limited to:

They are modes that scale differently. There is no ~50v50 sPvP and even if team-fights there have become more normative in recent tournaments and such, even ~5v5 situations are not really defining the mode in sPvP. This makes WvW less stat sensitive.

There's also the question of time and respecting players time. We're 10 years into this game now and there might have been more sense to this topic earlier on and before a slew of additions to the mode (like legendary armor). There are plenty of people still playing, who can be rather important to the mode, who have spent thousands of hours on building their accounts up. Simply taking all that time away from them, at this point in the game's lifespan, could be far more problematic for the developer and the game than it may first appear to you.

There are some roundabout "leopards ate my face"-risks to it, where, for example, a new player wanting to get into a squad feel restricted by a lack of access to gear and builds but if you disrespect the time of whoever makes those squads, they may quit and there may be no more such content to join into.

As always with these things, nothing is set in stone: You can balance the ~1-75 scale of WvW using sPvP stats if you wanted to and you can choose to disrespect your players without everyone quitting at once (if WvW isn't already an obvious example of that, I don't know what is, hehe). However, I believe that most of the time when these topics come up, the people who bring them up do not see or understand this full picture and wouldn't be happy with such changes anyway. They may, for example, exclusively play small scale or even alone and do not regard the full ~1-75 scale of WvW. They then misplace that discussion with topics of sPvP gearing or class balance.

So you could use sPvP stats and you could balance them out to some sort of common bracket scaling like 1-5-15-25-50 and make sure that the balance excels in the 5-25 player span but most people who would argue for sPvP stats do it from a perspective of only 1-5 balance (like in sPvP, a mode that never scales beyond 5): Where damage is less volatile but things like gear-stats and gear-quality (ie., exotics vs. ascendeds) are more important. It's much easier to drop into 50-scale on exotics and feel more involved in the content.

Ontop of that there's how messages get amplified. There's quite a big overrepresentation of players who are both alone and relatively new on these forums. That has always been the case with how WvW communities are laid out (servers) and the broader community is managed (eg., the decision to ban matchup threads here, to avoid conflict on the forums, even though the mode to a significant part revolves around matchups, made players find other means of communication very early on), but it is steadily becomming more prominent: So if you post here you are going to see some very common responses that are not very representative and you're going to see some responses (like this one) that aren't necessarily very controversial - simply answering your question and trying to provide some broader context - that are going to stick out like a sore thumb here 😄 .

you can't be serious my guy based on your logic no sort of progression in the game should ever be looked at period end of story. you can't bring up "players being disrespected" when literally anything you do will kitten off potentially majority of the playerbase who might feel "disrespected" look at ele rn after the doomsday patch. it hasn't been a good excuse and never will be not everyone will be happy but thats no excuse to purposefully leave a game/gamemode in a bad shape

sPvP gear works cause it automatically puts EVERYONE at an equal playing field. not to mention if you go from say playing PvP to WvW it'll be a far smoother transition. nobody in their right mind would look at WvW and go "you know what let me tie that in with PvE" cause how the kitten does PvE fit WvW better than PvP?? WvW IS PVP ORIENTED end of story. guards die in 5 seconds even with iron skin the mob camps also die extremely quickly. there's no reason to tie balancing to PvE and not implement even the most basic anti-frustating mechanics like not being able to chain stealths or multiwarps. 

if anybody here doesn't see the full picture it's you cause you completely wanna ignore midcore and smallcore fights. for what the 2 potentially 40-50 man boonballs that are gonna sit there and basically play war of attrition with eachother cause thats how stale and boring the meta has gotten? WvW is a "large scale gamemode" that you'd be lucky to get an actual group of 30 players in a pugmander party. hell even guilds occassionally still have to run at lower numbers and some even prefer it cause it's easier to control smaller squads over a giant ball of 50.

i've played both with pugs an with a midcore guild (around 25-30 people showing up a night) and it doesn't take a genius to look into WvW and wonder what the kitten were they thinking. hell i spent one day in there and was baffled how they thought to do half the stuff they do like why are walls basically useless? what's hte point of gates when literally nobody goes for them outside of being absolutely forced to like SMC inner? why is a player allowed to blink 3 miles away in 2 seconds? why is there not a guaranteed easily accessible reveal THAT MAKES THE ENEMY STAY REVEALED for all classes (this would only reveal on guessing where they are or predicting the stealth and precasting the reveal spell/ability).

you're reasoning makes no logical sense and shouldn't be trying to be defended with strawmans

[Kozumi.5816]

20 minutes ago, pikalovr.4613 said:

hell i spent one day in there and was baffled how they thought to do half the stuff they do like why are walls basically useless? what's hte point of gates when literally nobody goes for them outside of being absolutely forced to like SMC inner? why is a player allowed to blink 3 miles away in 2 seconds? why is there not a guaranteed easily accessible reveal THAT MAKES THE ENEMY STAY REVEALED for all classes (this would only reveal on guessing where they are or predicting the stealth and precasting the reveal spell/ability).

This is what every new player I've brought to WvW has said to me, They get frustrated at the obviously badly designed and unfun things then quit within a few days.

Keeping veterans happy by not invalidating their gear isn't worth giving up ever gaining new players. That's how a game mode gets abandoned forever by the devs.

This is doubly true when a huge influx of new players are on the horizon with the steam release.

[Kozumi.5816]

22 hours ago, jaif.3518 said:

Boon balls dont exist because their are only 5 people to a side.  The game changes when you have 20+ people on support and hybrid builds.

Incorrect. Boonballs don't exist in SPvP because it deleted broken stat combinations that have no place in this games PvP. The best 5v5 WvW roaming comp is 5 celestial/minstrel  bunkers all sharing boons. Aka a boonball.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 8/13/2022 at 9:31 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

You are the reason why WvW will slowly lose players until they abandon it entirely like dungeons.

It doesn't mater what you like, you are an extreme minority and should not be designed for. For the mode to actually grow and stay alive you need to design for the majority; whom want what I suggest.

 

Again, you make no points outside ''because I say'. So do you have any numbers that show that the sPvP population now exceed that which existed in the past. The natural change in all games is a larger population that declines over time as people try new games so you use a natural tendency to try and state your facts. I have not seen any skill balance lead to the addition of players but have seen it lose many after builds they spent time on wiped out and they felt all that time was lost. In my opinion and experience we have lost more people due to staleness in the game mode and lack of changes more than due to people seeing a build as OP. The reason for this is that there is a large amount of build diversity so even if you ran into one that you couldn't take, it didn't matter because you might not find that player again or next time you meet it may not be 1v1. And that's if you roam. And as a roamer/havoc I would disagree small scale is in not that bad of shape currently. Not seeing any one class rule them all else all roamers would have similar builds. That said roamers and havocs can also gear out to encounter warbands and zergs and still might be able to get out of trouble, where as if we had just the sPvP system those havocs would be dead people walking if they ran face first into a zerg. So no, I counter opinions that I, in my own opinion, would harm WvW populations as well which I think that this change would bring to anyone that has spent 1K hours in game let alone those that have spent 10K hours or more even more so.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

The good ol' "Lets homogenize the game" balance philosophy that every noobie thinks is the holy grail of how to balance a game.

 

How about we take your philosophy to its logical conclusion. 

 

Just forget amulets, stats, HP differences, and skill differences, and just give everyone a stick. That would be a truly balanced game.

Edited August 14, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[pikalovr.4613]

2 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

the good old "lets homogenize the game" balance philosophy that every noobie thinks is the holy grail of how to balance a game.

 

How about we take your philosophy to its logical conclusion. 

 

Just forget amulets, stats, HP differences, and skill differences, and just give everyone a stick. That would be a truly balanced game.

LMAO if you think balancing the game mode about players fighting each other around players fighting each other and using the INTENDED GEARING FORMAT FOR PVP instead of balancing around PvE is homogenizing the game you're actually delusional

skill expression should come in the form of spec building and actual usage of skills in fights not around who has the most heal scrappers with full kitted out minstrel sets or anything like that. god i swear nobody understands how actual building/skill expression in games works. if gear was really that important we'd at least have access to a seperate build tab altogether for WvW builds that would allow us to hand pick the gear we need almost like a certain other mode does hmmmmm?

not only would that tab allow for MORE experimentation since there's absolutely no cost or crafting needed to get what you need to test your build or run it. as for the argument "muh infusions" sure they can stick around plus they are still BIS for raids anyways so you'll still have uses in both modes for them

but homogenizing the game? have you even looked at the current WvW big group meta? no matter what you do there will always be meta builds and go this or you're almost gimping the group builds but as i've said with the players being disrespected argument there's no good reasoning here and never will be

also can't wait for the "well might as well just allow people to hand pick their gear in PvE as well" argument

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

27 minutes ago, pikalovr.4613 said:

skill expression should come in the form of spec building and actual usage of skills in fights

 

I agree with that statment.

 

However, what I'm saying is that homogenization does not lead to more skill expression, or spec building.

 

Options, and the usefulness of those options is what leads to experimentation, and new build ideas...aka diversity.

 

The amulet system, is the opposite of diversity. It was a system strictly to reduce the number of options, and the effectiveness of those options a player could choose from...therefor you see less diversity and expression in SPVP not more of it.

 

Unlike you, I've played Spvp and WvW for 10 years or whatever (since launch) and I've lived through the history of this game...and have seen build diversity drop as the number of options drop and tightening of these restrictive systems in an attempt to "balance" the game...which has consistently failed them for years.

 

Quote

LMAO if you think balancing the game mode about players fighting each other around players fighting each other and using the INTENDED GEARING FORMAT FOR PVP instead of balancing around PvE is homogenizing the game you're actually delusional

 

I took your argument to it's logical conclusion (give the same option to everyone aka, give everyone the stick). It's a (funny) proof that your argument is actually what's delusional.

 

You want balance? You will never get it. Sorry. That's reality.

 

PVP is not in-different to this reality. In fact, PVP is worse than WvW, because like mentioned earlier there are less options...therefor less builds that you can make...and because the balance is harsher than in WvW, a lot of builds that work in WvW don't work in Spvp.

Edited August 14, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Kozumi.5816]

40 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

there are less options...therefor less builds that you can make.

That's a good thing, btw.

Would you want people running around as turret engs and minion necros AFK killing people like mech can now in an action combat game?

WvW's build openness is terrible for balance to the point it's so unfun that it's bleeding players slowly over time.

What you find fun might actually be insane unfun to everyone else fighting you - which has been an issue plaguing GW2 PvP modes since alpha.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

That's a good thing, btw.

Would you want people running around as turret engs and minion necros AFK killing people like mech can now in an action combat game?

WvW's build openness is terrible for balance to the point it's so unfun that it's bleeding players slowly over time.

What you find fun might actually be insane unfun to everyone else fighting you - which has been an issue plaguing GW2 PvP modes since alpha.

Yes because sPvP is in such tip top shape. Def more players in sPvP then WvW thats for sure.

[Kozumi.5816]

46 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You want balance? You will never get it. Sorry. That's reality.

I want a game mode that isn't actively bleeding players by having the worst PvP in the genre by a significant margin. As I've said earlier, these "diverse" builds(you know, the builds where you literally hold W key away because you can't interact with them? yeah good fun pvp!) has made every single person I've brought into WvW quit within a few days. These are multi-gladiator WoW players and MOBA players who actually like RPG PvP a lot.

 

Balance isn't the issue, the issue is allowing non-interactive builds that the only solution to is "Avoid it and change maps" to sit and plague the game for years at a time because the developers refuse to do their jobs.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1) Boon ball exists because there are 50 people in a huddle vomiting out boons. Moving to the PvP gear system would not dent the boon ball as it would still vomit boons.

2) The PvP gear system works for a 5v5, not with 50v50  where 1 spam is enough to down a targeted enemy. No amount of gear tinkering will stop that.

3) WvW does indeed need separate balance than PvP and deserves it's own balance team.