Fixing hammer in WVW

[scerevisiae.1972]

Hammer has no niche in WVW: 

• staff has way better range, area damage and support
• dagger has way better mobility, area damage and support
• sword' is also quite niche, but it is a decent duellist/roamer 
• sceptre is probably the weakest but is the premier single target ranged spiker.

 

It would be nice if hammer could have some relevance, cause many W VW players are bored with playing staff weaver, dagger tempest.

I would beg the Anet devs to consider the following:

• change earth #5 to a cone area effect skill, think warrior hammer #3
• change fire $5 to a cone area effect skill
• change water #1 to a cone area effect skill that does weak damage and AOE heals for a small amount 
• increase the AOE radius of fire #4 
• also fire #2 is very unrealiable, consider widening the angle of attack

 

Basically the AOE damage of hammer is way below where I think a melee weapon should be.

Suggested changes do not materially buff single target DPS, and also addresses the other design bug of hammer IMHO which is that fire/air have access to ranged skills, but earth/water do not.  

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

WVW, the forgotten game mode.

 

Even with the buffs you've suggested, I'm not sure hammer would be competitive as a DPS, but at least it wouldn't suck. 

[Sporks.4395]

needs 900 range to good. everything about it is nice, but you need the ability to do ranged damage in some way. 900 range on fire and air would do it. Then you could attune earth for heavy imob spikes when getting personal, and still be able to play the game with the meta at range.

[solemn.9670]

?hammer is an even better duelist than sword weaver. The only time it isn't is when you fight a top/extremely talented player that knows exactly how to kite around it and still get through it's defenses - even then you can still beat them with hammer. The average pug? No chance whatsoever. Often 1v3 pugs with ease on hammer catalyst.

Its just an awareness problem at this point. Hammer is easily the meta duelist/roamer right now and only the eles who have been able to establish some competence on it are aware of it. Lots of "it doesn't work for me so it's bad" to go around, but that doesn't change how op it is right now xd

[scerevisiae.1972]

honestly i've not had any issues dispatching hammer catas in wvw, the rare time you even see them. fire weaver is IMHO way more oppressive to fight, at least in my experience.

i don't doubt that if you invest enough time, you can make it work as a duellist/roamer but you can kind of say that about any cele spec atm, and the fact you need to invest a lot of time and you just barely ever see hammer catas in wvw (and when you do, they are food) just kinda reinforces my point.

more than anything, i just don't like it. it sure sucks in any kind of zerg/cloud scenario and the last thing ele needed was another duellist spec anyway.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[Kuma.1503]

I don't understand how a hammer cata kills you unless you let it. Meta builds usually have good mobility, and can just kite it to oblivion. 

It's god tier in PvP sidenoding because fights are constrained to a circle and it's on-node pressure is too much for most builds to deal with. In WvW, its too slow to catch the plethora of slippery builds that simply wont let it get close enough to deal the bulk of its damage. 

It demolishes people who don't know better and try to outbrawl it however. The combination of damage, defense, and sustain on hammer is very difficult to handle, especially when you throw stability, shocking aura, weakness, prot, and passive unstrippable damage reduction into the mix. 

Perhaps they could make it a less polarizing weapon and give it better mobility in exhange for some damage or tankiness? Or they could leave it as is. It's very good at what it does, but has some exploitable weaknesses to keep it in check. That's not necessarily a bad thing. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[scerevisiae.1972]

21 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I don't understand how a hammer cata kills you unless you let it. Meta builds usually have good mobility, and can just kite it to oblivion. 

It's god tier in PvP sidenoding because fights are constrained to a circle and it's on-node pressure is too much for most builds to deal with. In WvW, its too slow to catch the plethora of slippery builds that simply wont let it get close enough to deal the bulk of its damage. 

Yeah I think that's at the core of why I can't get into it. That and how much it overlaps with sword - basically a duellist spec only, close to useless in open field fights, or any small-mid sized group (10+) WVW.

I've been playing staff/sceptre/dagger for 10 freakin' years Anet, why is it so difficult to make a new (mostly) ranged weapon for me to play with?!? Honestly feels like they're going out of their way to dissuade me from playing their game.

FWIW I was disappointed with Sword too when it came out but at least it was a new niche for Ele at the time and weaver actually provided a new way to play staff/sceptre/dagger. Catalyst does none of that, it's just core ele + field, and hammer is just another melee weapon that competes directly with sword/dagger for the melee space.

</rant>  

Edited August 19, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[RaveOnYou.2819]

i think only air 2 is problematic. for power build static channeling skill is not meaningfull in wvw when every class can kite easily. at least one immob option has to take place in hammer or more powerfull and reliable cc skill like gale.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

This might be not a very popular opinion, but to fix Hammer I would already start to nerf it one more time : delete this circular projectil mechanic.

Because it obliges to attune in all elements regardless your build, regardless the other skills and it obliges you to stay melee all the time (to hit enemies obviously, inflict conditions, earn energy... )

 

Then you'll have a more "generic" weapon but healthier and ready for buff : range, damage, boons ...

[Polar.8634]

12 hours ago, RaveOnYou.2819 said:

i think only air 2 is problematic. for power build static channeling skill is not meaningfull in wvw when every class can kite easily. at least one immob option has to take place in hammer or more powerfull and reliable cc skill like gale

you can move while you channel, also u have stab, use it on dead/cc'd bodies while moving.

[Arolandis.8360]

I'm really liking hammer in WvW.

These are the changes I really want though:

• As someone that actually likes the augments, I think the effect of reducing the cooldown by using it by a specific type of jade sphere field is nice, but the requirement of having to match to a specific field makes it clunky. If I drop a water sphere, I'm gonna be using water combos to heal, but the Augment heal requires using it in your water sphere to get the cooldown reduction. In those moments it's really kind of overkill to heal combo then use your heal skill for the CD reduction. I'd rather the augment skills have their CD reduction work just by using it in a jade sphere over having it have to match the type, too.
• The autoattacks on Fire and Air should be 900 range over 600. I'm so easily kited on hammer in this game mode.
• Shock Blast (Air 5) is slow. Can we make it faster like scrapper's similar stun skill? I'm fine with the Fire and Earth combo finishers still being slow, I can work quickness into those. Quickness doesn't help this skill.
• Whirling Stones (Earth 2) should also be a Whirl finisher.
• Rain of Blows (Water 2) should inflict a short duration chill per strike, rather than requiring all blows to land in order to inflict chill.
• Bump Grand Finale's range from 800 to 900 and make it faster maybe.
• Maybe also give a few more Fire and Air skills 900 range. Really just Triple Sear and Hurricane of pain would be fine.
• I'm still dealing with a lot of CC even with Staunch Auras. Could use a longer base duration of stability on that trait. We gotta build that up with combos with Elemental Epitome. Daggers can build it up easier than Hammer users can. And there is TONS of CC in WvW. It feels lacking with Hammer.
• As slow-casted combo finishers, the 5-skills should have a bit lower cooldown.
• Surging Flames (Fire 2) should be a 3-hit skill to match the animation/effect (3 Fireballs), and then have it's damage adjusted so that it stays the same as it is now if all 3 hits land.

 

I really freaking  love Hammer but it needs that little bit extra to compete with daggers.

Oh and add bleed to earth auto.

Oh and also, the Augment skill Shattering Ice is pretty lame. You get that sort of effect and more from Glyph of Elemental Power.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Arolandis.8360

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:34 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

This might be not a very popular opinion, but to fix Hammer I would already start to nerf it one more time : delete this circular projectil mechanic.

Because it obliges to attune in all elements regardless your build, regardless the other skills and it obliges you to stay melee all the time (to hit enemies obviously, inflict conditions, earn energy... )

Yeah i also agree the circular projectiles are bad and problematic for all the reasons you stated but I just don't see Anet ever removing them.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

cone attacks are garbage, skills with an aoe radius are way better cuz they're harder to dodge. also support skills with a cone make you choose who to help when your party is spread out.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:34 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

cone attacks are garbage, skills with an aoe radius are way better cuz they're harder to dodge. also support skills with a cone make you choose who to help when your party is spread out.

600 range quarter circle cone area is mathematically the same area as a 300 range circular AOE.
 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

19 minutes ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

600 range quarter circle cone area is mathematically the same area as a 300 range circular AOE.
 

it doesn't matter, math can't help you if your allies/ enemies are spread out. firebrand mantras would be 100% better if they were all 360 radius cuz then you would also be able to effect allies behind you more reliably, which is almost always the case in wvw.

[solemn.9670]

Idk what to say other than that we are playing a completely different game/spec, apparently. All due respect.

It just won't work for everyone. Ive met one player who was able to beat it consistently in a 1v1 and they're easily top 10 na rev/Mesmer. Weirdly, antitoxin D/D fire/air cata performed better vs their rev build and playstyle.

In 9/10 cases tho, hammer antitoxin fire/arcane will be the better choice as long as you don't get zerged. Considering how most pugs in WvW play right now, sometimes I find it's better to just stand your ground and try to 1v3

Then again, I recall repeating this exact sentiment regarding fire weaver for the past like 4 years in this subforum. I should give up trying to convince ppl 😅

Edited August 25, 2022 by solemn.9670
Omitted unnecessary

[Serephen.3420]

6 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Idk what to say other than that we are playing a completely different game/spec, apparently. All due respect.

It just won't work for everyone. Ive met one player who was able to beat it consistently in a 1v1 and they're easily top 10 na rev/Mesmer. Weirdly, antitoxin D/D fire/air cata performed better vs their rev build and playstyle.

In 9/10 cases tho, hammer antitoxin fire/arcane will be the better choice as long as you don't get zerged. Considering how most pugs in WvW play right now, sometimes I find it's better to just stand your ground and try to 1v3

Then again, I recall repeating this exact sentiment regarding fire weaver for the past like 4 years in this subforum. I should give up trying to convince ppl 😅

I would link my yt for proof but I fear that I smack of pretentious argument from authority as-is. Please consider that you're just not using it right x_x

I pretty much have run hammer Cata with some similar set ups to that since EOD. Have some ups and downs but it's fairly successful for me. Not the best thing since sliced bread but still solid. I have changed to full marauder though recently. I do like the extra burst and I've gotten used to the squishiness again. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Serephen.3420
Typo

[scerevisiae.1972]

8 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Then again, I recall repeating this exact sentiment regarding fire weaver for the past like 4 years in this subforum. I should give up trying to convince ppl 😅

I would link my yt for proof but I fear that I smack of pretentious argument from authority as-is. Please consider that you're just not using it right x_x

you're talkimng about duels though, and it's the one area that (IMHO) cata is decent at. Even then, it's only duels where the opponent implicity or explicity agrees to stay in the general area. If i am fighting a hammer cata and i don't think i can win, i can just kite away and there's very little they can do about it.

 

the point is that WVW is more than just roaming and 1v1s, and for those parts of WVW, hammer is really bad (though it's a decent commander build if you're into that). small group roaming it's ok, 15v15 GVG it underperforms - dagger is straight up better, and 20+ zerging it's super garbage.

 

as one who does a mix of solo roam, group roam, GVG and zerging, I personally would really like it if Anet would buff some of the range/AOE aspects of hammer so it doesn't suck in the 2/3rds-3/4 of the WVW I play. feel free to record some YT of you dominating (or just being remotely competitive with other DPS specs) in GVGs or zergs with hammer.

personally i'd be very happy to have some it's duelling kit nerfed as compensation, e.g. I'd love to get rid of the circular projectiles because they distort the 1v1 and PVE DPS aspects of the weapon.

I still think it's kitten stupid to have given Ele 2x PVE melee duellist weapons in a row. 

 

 

 

[solemn.9670]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:46 PM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

you're talkimng about duels though, and it's the one area that (IMHO) cata is decent at. Even then, it's only duels where the opponent implicity or explicity agrees to stay in the general area. If i am fighting a hammer cata and i don't think i can win, i can just kite away and there's very little they can do about it.

 

the point is that WVW is more than just roaming and 1v1s, and for those parts of WVW, hammer is really bad (though it's a decent commander build if you're into that). small group roaming it's ok, 15v15 GVG it underperforms - dagger is straight up better, and 20+ zerging it's super garbage.

 

as one who does a mix of solo roam, group roam, GVG and zerging, I personally would really like it if Anet would buff some of the range/AOE aspects of hammer so it doesn't suck in the 2/3rds-3/4 of the WVW I play. feel free to record some YT of you dominating (or just being remotely competitive with other DPS specs) in GVGs or zergs with hammer.

personally i'd be very happy to have some it's duelling kit nerfed as compensation, e.g. I'd love to get rid of the circular projectiles because they distort the 1v1 and PVE DPS aspects of the weapon.

I still think it's kitten stupid to have given Ele 2x PVE melee duellist weapons in a row. 

 

 

 

Nah I completely agree with everything you said except that if someone wants to kite away from a duel vs hammer cata, they could always just run away and admit defeat as well. In both scenarios the hammer cata maintains control, if someone actually has to tryhard so much that all they do is kite I will just assume I've won the duel, /shrug and leave xD

But you're right, overall my focus is very solo roamer oriented so ofc my bias is showing here. But there really are some players who think hammer is bad as a duelist as well. If it can obliterate 3 pugs with ease you don't really even need to run away, and it has the sustain to tank while running for quite a distance vs most things. Just gets rough when you have to try to 1v3 actually good players, probably going to die very quickly in that case :')

I would like to see hammer be more useful as multi-role as well, but being primarily a WvW roamer I'm kind of in love with it as-is, anything else is a bonus

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:04 AM, solemn.9670 said:

I would like to see hammer be more useful as multi-role as well, but being primarily a WvW roamer I'm kind of in love with it as-is, anything else is a bonus

It's one thing for an elite spec weapon not to see much play in any game mode, but when the elite spec itself is also so bland that existing weapons are also kinda meh with it, IMHO there's a major design problem.

Weaver IMO was a good spec because even though sword, like hammer, was basically just a PVE and duellist weapon, weaver worked well with staff and sceptre and found complementary niches in other game modes.

Catalyst OTOH, kinda sucks with sceptre/staff (dagger cata is decent but dagger tempest sees a lot more play), and hammer is super niche (and competes directly with sword in the same niches).

Something needs to be changed IMO. 

[Junkpile.7439]

Bigger problem is that skills are lame and every skill feels same.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

On 8/19/2022 at 1:53 AM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

close to useless in open field fights, or any small-mid sized group (10+) WVW.

????

that's exactly where hammer shines in WvW. Sword lacks range and staff AoEs are usually too slow to hit several players at once in small/mid scale fights. Hammer is also great at taking camps by yourself and overall Cata has a boon output that makes it a super helpful addition to small roaming groups seizing towers and alike (with hammer being the best weapon to generate energy)

 

[Avatara.1042]

Anyone with half a brain and a ranged weapon can kill a Hammer cata in WvW.