Vindicator in raids?

[soul.9651]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes it does because optimal PUG groups won't take it as a pure DPS @ 38K. We have already seen this many times in this game. 

Then give  more specifics instead of vague "explanasions"

Plus why people should be punished if they wanna play vindicator but cant join those optimized pug groups just because there are spec limitations in their dps numbers. 

And again this is all we have rn for vindicator at pve.. 1 pdps build. And if you have only one viable build for a spec it MUST do something competitive (either dps or supp and rn vindicators supp option is non existant at all...........) otherwise why rev even got a new spec from eod.. if noone is even gonna use it, just look how dead vindicators population is rn just because it cant offer that competitive dps NEITHER competitive supp option.

Edited September 21, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Plus why people should be punished if they wanna play vindicator but cant join those optimized pug groups just because there are spec limitations in their dps numbers. 

Part of the answer: because this game allows people choice to play how they want. If you can play how you want, you can exclude whatever specs you want for whatever reason you like for teams you make. On the other hand, you can also include whoever you want. That's why it's nonsense to think DPS is the solution here because 1)  DPS doesn't force these teams to take you 2) it doesn't stop you from making your own teams and playing the specs you want. 

The other part of that: team bandwidth. There are only 10 spots and Anet has decided team boon only share with 5 players so it's just not realistic to think the overwhelming number of specs we have now (and we will get more in the future) can all fit somehow in those 5-10 spots. Those optimal teams ARE going to exclude specs and it's a REALLY good chance it's one you want to play because of the limited bandwidth. 

2 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

And again this is all we have rn for vindicator at pve.. 1 pdps build. And if you have only one viable build for a spec it MUST do something competitive (either dps or supp and rn vindicators supp option is non existant at all...........) otherwise why rev even got a new spec from eod.. if noone is even gonna use it, just look how dead vindicators population is rn just because it cant offer that competitive dps NEITHER competitive supp option.

That's just you imposing your ideas of how the game should work. There is no rule that says if you only have one viable build for a spec, it MUST do something competitive. That's not why we have these specs in the first place. Must be competitive has never been a requirement for especs. In fact, It's more often the case that especs are NOT competitive for optimal pug groups, so that thinking you have there doesn't make sense.  

But still ... even if it has to be competitive, it's not a forgone conclusion that DPS is the way to do that. It's probably the worst way because there isn't anything unique about DPS,. Lots of specs already provide it so the competition there is the largest of all things that define what is desirable to a team . The space to be competitive there is the largest of all the elements in the game these teams want.  There are lots of examples from the history of the game that prove it. 

You're just being stubborn here because the fact is that this has nothing to do with some dream of playing in an optimal PUG with Vindicator. You simply want more DPS and think trending to the most obvious deficiency for the spec is a compelling reason to get that. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Angesombre.4630]

It doesn't change the fact that Anet can go back on a decision or a mistake they made, they can make changes based on what is wrong. So an increase in dps is possible, after that we have to see how. Look at the return of the sigil on the legend swap, CMC was well said that it would be reinstated.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

It doesn't change the fact that Anet can go back on a decision or a mistake they made, they can make changes based on what is wrong. So an increase in dps is possible, after that we have to see how. Look at the return of the sigil on the legend swap, CMC was well said that it would be reinstated.

Sure, Anet can do whatever they want. That's not the question. Anet being able to do whatever they want doesn't make giving Vindicator non-competitive DPS buffs to make it more appealing to a subset of PUG teams that only want top level DPS any less of a nonsensical argument here. 

I mean, there have been lots of reasons discussed why this doesn't make sense for Anet to do this. Ignoring those reasons and pretending like the trivial fact that Anet can do what they want is not a reason to implement changes here. Again, look how how Anet behaves and the changes they make and the reasons they create these specs. If that doesn't make you think Vindicator being made top level DPS for a subset of selective PUGs is a highly unlikely and ineffective solution, then you just aren't paying attention. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Part of the answer: because this game allows people choice to play how they want

So you mean i can play naked with my 2x dreamer renegade power just to annoy people , spamming f3 for juicy poney shower , and do 0 dps , and if people kick me or dont want me on raids , i should report them cause "they didnt allow me to play what i wanted" 

It's nice to dream , but you know someday you need to wake up , and take a cold shower to open your eyes to reality .... i know what i said is pure trolling , but if you have a single brain cell working , you should see my point , example : a guy on low kp wanted to join a cm fractal run as chrono , guess what he was at 8k dps , and instantly got kicked . So yes play what your want , but only whats meta if you want to do endgame content (by meta i mean something who provide the minimum at his rôle )

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But still ... even if it has to be competitive, it's not a forgone conclusion that DPS is the way to do that

Thats true , there was a support heal/alac build but anet destroyed it be removing alac from ventari , so i think you need to review your definition of competitive. The game allow you to play how you want , the community , NOT ! 

To the OP dont worry , anet gonna make 2x dodge on vindicator , lets just hope it will be decent at dps and not depend only on the size of your target.

Edited September 21, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

So you mean i can play naked with my 2x dreamer renegade power just to annoy people , spamming f3 for juicy poney shower , and do 0 dps , and if people kick me or dont want me on raids , i should report them cause "they didnt allow me to play what i wanted" 

You can try ... I don't think that's a reportable offense though. They didn't take away your ability to play how you want, they just didn't let you do it in their team. If you want to play that way, you make your own teams ... just like how it's always worked. 

6 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

thats true , there was a support heal/alac build but anet destroyed it be removing alac from ventari , so i think you need to review your definition of competitive.

That doesn't make sense. I never defined what is competitive related to that particular build. Anet making changes to builds and specs doesn't define what is competitive; That's determined by players who propose what the meta builds and team comps are.

What I can assure you is that if people are going to propose that Vindicator be introduced as a pure DPS build in optimal PUGs, nothing short of TOP DPS ranking will be accepted because of the other specs a Vindicator will have to compete with if they don't present top DPS to that team. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, I'm not talking about general game changes that suddenly impart massive DPS on classes. I'm talking about instances where Anet come in, and added massive DPS to a class so it can compete for a DPS slot in teams. 

The example I gave is LITERALLY one of those. Was not a general game change 

 

Untamed is another example. From 28k to 42k with targeted DPS buffs. No gamewide changes. Just admit you’re objectively wrong on this one 

Edited September 21, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The example I gave is LITERALLY one of those. Was not a general game change 

 

Untamed is another example. From 28k to 42k with targeted DPS buffs. No gamewide changes. Just admit you’re objectively wrong on this one 

Wrong or right, that doesn't make what I'm saying any less credible. There ARE reasons and realities of this game that people are ignoring when they push for more Vindicator DPS. It's simply nonsensical to premise more DPS on Vindicator with how undesirable it is with optimal PUG teams. Literally ANYTHING can be justified with that, with the exception of the most top performing meta classes that already own a team spot with those teams. It's all a ruse. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wrong or right, that doesn't make what I'm saying any less credible. There ARE reasons and realities of this game that people are ignoring when they push for more Vindicator DPS. It's simply nonsensical to premise more DPS on Vindicator with how undesirable it is with optimal PUG teams. Literally ANYTHING can be justified with that, with the exception of the most top performing meta classes that already own a team spot with those teams. It's all a ruse. 

Lmao, misdirecting again when wrong I see!

[soul.9651]

11 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The example I gave is LITERALLY one of those. Was not a general game change 

 

Untamed is another example. From 28k to 42k with targeted DPS buffs. No gamewide changes. Just admit you’re objectively wrong on this one 

Or even the same slb... After owp nerf  it was a crap tier literaly the same as vindicator at that time, yet there is 0 equality in this game, because no matter what they are giving us in multiple patches its still not even close what slb got in just one to bring them back to the top spots

Edited September 22, 2022 by soul.9651

[infant.8175]

• Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds.
  this will carry to pve on the upcoming oct 4th patch ?

[phokus.8934]

4 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

• Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds.
  this will carry to pve on the upcoming oct 4th patch ?

Presumably yes.

[soul.9651]

4 hours ago, infant.8175 said:

• Vindicator no longer consumes all endurance to dodge. Reduced endurance cost of dodging from 100 to 50. Reduced dodge evade window from 1.6 seconds to 0.8 seconds.
  this will carry to pve on the upcoming oct 4th patch ?

Im pretty sure they gonna nerf damage part so 2 dodges would have similar damage as 1 or something like that

[zeyeti.8347]

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet making changes to builds and specs doesn't define what is competitive; That's determined by players who propose what the meta builds and team comps are.

Ofc as always you are on your fanboy cloud talking to yourself like you only represent a community on his own , Anet buffing the mech rifle didnt made it top played class , ofc noooo...... thats because snowcrow (those freaking elitist players , yuuuukkk .... sarcasm here) made a build of it , stop nonsense i was trying rifle the day they changed it , and my mind was clear "this thing is gonna be a freaking monster !! " and guess what , i was true .

So as i said up , anet sure says you can play anything you want , but the community wont allow you , and even if your statement make any sense you can just go further ," i want to play necromancer alacrity !" well you cannot ! it's physically impossible .

So carebears world once again doesnt exist , game is unbalanced and some class have 0 loves , while others take all the kisses , vindicator is a good example of it , a useless class in endgame , while it is fun dodging from a trash mob to another trash mob with a sigil of stamina , but thats all , class is fun , but enefficient . 

Also you should spend a little bit more time in the game than on forums .

Edited September 22, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

So as i said up , anet sure says you can play anything you want , but the community wont allow you 

Maybe that's true for you; an unfortunate consequence of choices you have made. It depends on how you choose to play. I play anything I want ... community has NEVER stopped me.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

@Obtena.7952 well looks like reaper is at 41k bench rn, so buffing vindicator still doesnt make ant sence to you? Keeping in mind how against any dps buffs for reaper you was aswell. But guess what give it a month or 2 and you will see plenty of reapers from now on in raids + any other content like that. Like you tell us how buffing dps for those specs wont solve anything (reaper and vind) but we gonna see the opposite happening for reapers just because they got that dps buff and the build is now out there for people.

Edited September 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

@Obtena.7952 well looks like reaper is at 41k bench rn, so buffing vindicator still doesnt make ant sence to you?

Does it? That's nice ... and it still doesn't get into optimal PUG teams because DPS isn't enough to get it a spot.

So no, it still doesn't make sense for Vindicator to get competitive DPS just because it doesn't get optimal PUG teams. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Does it? That's nice ... and it still doesn't get into optimal PUG teams because DPS isn't enough to get it a spot.

 

And this is where you are wrong, it didnt get into pugs just because people didnt know about it, and now when the videos are out (its been like 2-3 days) the more people will know and the more popular it will become over time, unless they nerf it in future. Like i said, give it 1 or 2 months, so more people will know about this and your words "it still doesnt get Into optimal pug teams" wont make sence because it will be the opposite of that. Which just would prove you wrong about vindicator aswell.. because rn, everyone but you sees how lack of dps is the main problem with vind. "Selfish dps" with no dps :')

Edited September 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

It's a good story bro .... but Reapers aren't wanted in PUGs for more reasons that people just not knowing about it. My favourite part is where you predict the future to tell me why I'm wrong now. Love those time machines. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

Its an easy to play build and gonna have top bench.. you dont rly need any time machines to predict that ^^ 

[Obtena.7952]

Reaper is an easy to play build that is top notch ay? Getting all the good DPS spots in CMs? This good story almost writes itself! I'm sure that's a compelling reason for Anet to change Vindicator then too!

This story is almost as good as the last one you told where Vindicator getting a DPS boost will help them compete for DPS team spots. I guess these stories are found in the fiction?

Edited September 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

Can you read?? At all?? I said its been out like for 3 days, people are never gonna play any op builds untill they see videos and officiall benchmarks. Considering that not everyone knows about it yet ofc it will take some for it to be spammed everywhere

[Obtena.7952]

59 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Can you read?? At all?? I said its been out like for 3 days, people are never gonna play any op builds untill they see videos and officiall benchmarks. Considering that not everyone knows about it yet ofc it will take some for it to be spammed everywhere

Yeah I can read ... I just don't make attempts to predict the future. Things I say are based on interpretation of past game experience, things that actually exist and Anet's behaviour.

Might be nice of you to post the information about this reaper benchmark though. It's kinda hard for me at this point to take anything you say seriously. I mean, if Reaper was doing 41K benchmark, It's pretty strange I'm hearing about it from you first or that it's taken this long to 'find' that extra DPS since the last known benchmarks are around 34K. The necro subforum would have been on fire about it, even if the 'official' video isn't out yet.  It's also weird because there simply wasn't a big enough buff in August patch for Reaper to reach 41K benchmark from 34K ... but I'm sure it's just a matter of a few days ... at least that's what you say. 

Bottomline: I think your information is faulty and that's your basis for telling me I'm wrong ... in the future? Sounds like good fiction. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

58 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah I can read ... I just don't make attempts to predict the future. Things I say are based on interpretation of past game experience, things that actually exist and Anet's behaviour.

Might be nice of you to post the information about this reaper benchmark though. It's kinda hard for me at this point to take anything you say seriously. I mean, if Reaper was doing 41K benchmark, It's pretty strange I'm hearing about it from you first or that it's taken this long to 'find' that extra DPS since the last known benchmarks are around 34K. The necro subforum would have been on fire about it, even if the 'official' video isn't out yet.  It's also weird because there simply wasn't a big enough buff in August patch for Reaper to reach 41K benchmark from 34K ... but I'm sure it's just a matter of a few days ... at least that's what you say. 

Bottomline: I think your information is faulty and that's your basis for telling me I'm wrong ... in the future? Sounds like good fiction. 

Dps with and without allies and at least at fract old cms with those precasts everything will melt, plus he is not even trying in this video 

Edited September 23, 2022 by soul.9651

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Dps with and without allies and at least at fract old cms with those precasts everything will melt, plus he is not even trying in this video 

LAWL ... the joke is on you. I think you need to check the comments section a little more closely. Even the video author admits this is a meme build, along with many of the people that commented. Here is a straight up good one:

Please add to your title that this is a troll bench, people might get confused and think reaper can actually put out 40k dps, when it's really not the case.

While it's true Staff got a very decent DPS increase in June ... if it was pulling 41K in Reaper in teams, there would be people talking about it in the necro forums, not making meme videos a few months after the change. It would be on SC ... it's not. It would be on HS ... it's not.

So ah ... are you still confident I'm wrong in the future, based on a joke video or how about we just wait and see what really happens here?

Edited September 23, 2022 by Obtena.7952