[Aug 28 Patch][PVE] DH still sucks

[FtoPScrub.5476]

The "buffs" barely affected anything. Total DPS gain is probably about ~1000 on golem. At the moment it benches for sub 33K, just barely above quickness support firebrand harbinger...

In this very same patch pMech, a class that was already gaining a ton of popularity, got buffed to 38k. Where is the balance? Not to mention power willbender, so pitifully awful no one even mentions it...

Edited August 26, 2022 by FtoPScrub.5476

[cat.8975]

It wouldn't even take that much to fix DH too.

• Retribution: 10% to 15%
• Radiant Power: +150 ferocity to +250 ferocity 
• Hunter's Ward: reduce the cooldown to 25s (from 40s), and increase the damage from 3*0.25 + 2.2 to 3*0.5 + 2.5.

Would push GS+LB into ~35.5-36.5k territory, more than enough to be considered playable.

[Luna.6203]

Every elite specialization comes with weapon and that weapon should be viable. DH comes with longbow and its just meme in pve. Buff it (pve only) so its main pick than you can have GS or Hammer or whatever on weapon swap. Also reduce clunkiness just like ability to move while casting TS which was removed from last patch. Overall I think it should be faster instead of increased damage but when i pick DH specialization i want to be able use longbow.

[cat.8975]

10 minutes ago, Luna.6203 said:

but when i pick DH specialization i want to be able use longbow.

You can. Even before the recent buff to the auto, it was already competitive with sw/f.

Edited August 25, 2022 by cat.8975

[Massimoni.9453]

8 hours ago, FtoPScrub.5476 said:

just barely above quickness support firebrand...

Did I miss a buff this patch that brought qFB up from 29k? Yea sub 33k is a bad joke, in general the only advice one could give at the moment is to step away from DPS guardian on any role imaginable until they finally figure out that there needs to be something done, which will inevitable be followed by a huge sh*tstorm sadly.

[Falseprophet.1502]

2 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

It wouldn't even take that much to fix DH too.

• Retribution: 10% to 15%
• Radiant Power: +150 ferocity to +250 ferocity 
• Hunter's Ward: reduce the cooldown to 25s (from 40s), and increase the damage from 3*0.25 + 2.2 to 3*0.5 + 2.5.

Would push GS+LB into ~35.5-36.5k territory, more than enough to be considered playable.

I agree with the last two but we need more. I don't think the Hunter's Ward or 100 more ferocity would be substantial enough, especially if we want to improve pWB, too. We really need to move away from all these modifiers that rely on boons like Retribution or Unscathed Contender if we truly want this spec to feel good. I think weapon reworks > just modifier buffs. 

 

Power guard is in a really weird spot and I don't think the balance team understands it. Take hammer for example. They wrote that the buffs would bring hammer in line with other weapons. Anyone with a decent understanding of  guard knows that hammer won't be worth a kitten until they detach symbol from the AA.  

[Antina.5973]

8 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

It wouldn't even take that much to fix DH too.

• Retribution: 10% to 15%
• Radiant Power: +150 ferocity to +250 ferocity 
• Hunter's Ward: reduce the cooldown to 25s (from 40s), and increase the damage from 3*0.25 + 2.2 to 3*0.5 + 2.5.

Would push GS+LB into ~35.5-36.5k territory, more than enough to be considered playable.

Honestly great bandaid fix, devs please? 😞

[FtoPScrub.5476]

10 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Did I miss a buff this patch that brought qFB up from 29k? Yea sub 33k is a bad joke, in general the only advice one could give at the moment is to step away from DPS guardian on any role imaginable until they finally figure out that there needs to be something done, which will inevitable be followed by a huge sh*tstorm sadly.

Oh yeah you're right, for some reason I got qFB and qHarb mixed up

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

Take hammer for example. They wrote that the buffs would bring hammer in line with other weapons. Anyone with a decent understanding of  guard knows that hammer won't be worth a kitten until they detach symbol from the AA.  

You mean the thing that makes hammer unique and gives it strong defensive support and cleaving potential?

 

"Bring hammer in line with other weapons" does not have to mean "turn hammer into greatsword 2.0". 

[Nash.2681]

18 hours ago, Luna.6203 said:

Every elite specialization comes with weapon and that weapon should be viable. DH comes with longbow and its just meme in pve. Buff it (pve only) so its main pick than you can have GS or Hammer or whatever on weapon swap. Also reduce clunkiness just like ability to move while casting TS which was removed from last patch. Overall I think it should be faster instead of increased damage but when i pick DH specialization i want to be able use longbow.

If there's anything I don't want it's being forced to use LB when playing DH. If there's anything beside firearems that thematicaly didnt fit to the Guardian class, it's pew pew bows. Let the longbow have it's use in pvp/wvw, where immersion barely matters, but plz let it remain irrelevant or at least purely optional in PvE. Thanks.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Nash.2681

[Borked.6824]

1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

If there's anything I don't want it's being forced to use LB when playing DH. If there's anything beside firearems that thematicaly didnt fit to the Guardian class, it's pew pew bows. Let the longbow have it's use in pvp/wvw, where immersion barely matters, but plz let it remain irrelevant or at least purely optional in PvE. Thanks.

What?  DH longbow is one of the few non-gimmicky longbow specs in the game, and there aren't many.  It's power-based, chunks stuff down, and has good variety.  Compared to warrior bow which is just a "wtf is this here for" simulator.  As mentioned above, specs without their weapons are sacrilege, and if anything needs to get away from DH, it's the GS before the LB.

[Luna.6203]

3 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

If there's anything I don't want it's being forced to use LB when playing DH. If there's anything beside firearems that thematicaly didnt fit to the Guardian class, it's pew pew bows. Let the longbow have it's use in pvp/wvw, where immersion barely matters, but plz let it remain irrelevant or at least purely optional in PvE. Thanks.

 

Just because you dont like specialization and its weapon doesnt mean you have to ruin it for everyone else who enjoy playing DH with longbow. Just play willbender or completely different class. dragon hunter gw2 wiki

 

21 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

You can. Even before the recent buff to the auto, it was already competitive with sw/f.

 

Im using DH with longbow for my open world / story casual play. Because i like it and its okay. But when it comes to competitive pve like t4 cm fractals / raids.. lets be real. Can you image join hard pve content as DH with longbow on back ? My guess is you be kicked before you say "hi, ill swap to FB just trolling".

 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Borked.6824 said:

What?  DH longbow is one of the few non-gimmicky longbow specs in the game, and there aren't many.  It's power-based, chunks stuff down, and has good variety.  Compared to warrior bow which is just a "wtf is this here for" simulator.  As mentioned above, specs without their weapons are sacrilege, and if anything needs to get away from DH, it's the GS before the LB.

Ranged weapons are generally supposed to have a bit less damage than melee weapons, so in a pure stack-and-smack fight, longbow probably shouldn't be outperforming the melee DPS weapons, specialisation weapon or not. It does, however, need to be a credible alternative to sceptre for fights that are likely to involve some range.

[Luna.6203]

44 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ranged weapons are generally supposed to have a bit less damage than melee weapons, so in a pure stack-and-smack fight, longbow probably shouldn't be outperforming the melee DPS weapons, specialisation weapon or not. It does, however, need to be a credible alternative to sceptre for fights that are likely to involve some range.

 

Than why virtuoso which comes with dagger and using dagger deal so much damage and its 100% range. What about engineer rampaging with their rifle. Even ranger (power soulbeast) using longbow now since they buffed it and you know longbow ranger never was viable option. Lets face it DH is just forgotten spec thats it. There is no reason in current meta why dh-longbow should be so bad since dragon hunter never will be 100% range due to traps. It could however fill gap for moments when you need disengage or swap target that is far from you.. like some adds for example.

 

I play guardian as main i spend lot of time/money.. bags, lot of build/gear slots etc.. and at end of day... all i can play right now is firebrand. When i want to do dps i have to relog to virtuoso..

 

I agree range shouldnt be too power in pvp. But in pve you either have damage to compete or not and than you cant play it. In other words If one weapon deal 5% more damage u are basically forced to use that weapon. And i believe longbow should be that weapon that deal 5% more damage not other way around.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Luna.6203
typo

[Falseprophet.1502]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You mean the thing that makes hammer unique and gives it strong defensive support and cleaving potential?

 

"Bring hammer in line with other weapons" does not have to mean "turn hammer into greatsword 2.0". 

Let me help you because you're not understanding.

 

Detaching the symbol from the AA does not equal removing it from the weapon itself. The symbol needs to be either attached to Hammer 2 or another skill needs to reworked to include that symbol. There is literally no other weapon on Guardian with a symbol attached to its auto-attack. It's inconsistent and it cripples the weapon.

 

Don't believe me? Go try benching with hammer right now. Use the standard raid set up with food. AA first. This should be around 22k-23k  if you use core guard (radiance/zeal/virtues). Now, do a second test, same set up, then integrate hammer skills 2-4 into the rotation in between each auto-attack symbol drop (I averaged between 20k-21k). You actually lose DPS doing this. This is my point that you seemingly do not understand. 

 

Nothing will change the "hammer uniqueness" or the "strong defensive support" that you claim it brings (weird how hammer is literally not used anywhere nor is it used by support guardians). Moving the symbol away from the AA will allow you to integrate the other skills into a proper rotation and make the recent changes to the power coefficients worthwhile. This isn't turning hammer into GS 2.0.

[cat.8975]

4 hours ago, Luna.6203 said:

Can you image join hard pve content as DH with longbow on back ? My guess is you be kicked before you say "hi, ill swap to FB just trolling".

LB+GS is perfectly viable and won't get you kicked out of groups unless you're doing something weird (e.g., standing away from everyone else and camping LB autos). The damage output is actually quite competitive with sw/f, and it brings arguably stronger cleave and (slightly) more CC. It's not a bad weapon for instanced PvE.

[otto.5684]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ranged weapons are generally supposed to have a bit less damage than melee weapons, so in a pure stack-and-smack fight, longbow probably shouldn't be outperforming the melee DPS weapons, specialisation weapon or not. It does, however, need to be a credible alternative to sceptre for fights that are likely to involve some range.

To an extent yes, but how much less. 2-5% less is okay. More than 10%, then the weapon no longer exists in PvE.

[Luna.6203]

8 minutes ago, cat.8975 said:

LB+GS is perfectly viable and won't get you kicked out of groups unless you're doing something weird (e.g., standing away from everyone else and camping LB autos). The damage output is actually quite competitive with sw/f, and it brings arguably stronger cleave and (slightly) more CC. It's not a bad weapon for instanced PvE.

It seems you dont understand sarcastic overstatement nobody will kick you before you say "hi..." it was joke 🙄 . Nobody camps auto-attack WTF?!... well maybe engi. LB/GS dragon hunter is not viable not even close. If it were this thread woudnt exist. Sw/f is not where main damage comes from so i guess if you swap to LB it wont make much difference. At end of day it doesnt matter if you play $@#! damage or $@#! damage with LB. And nobody does that. Why would you even try to bring DH to group atm ? What a sabotage!

[otto.5684]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:38 AM, cat.8975 said:

It wouldn't even take that much to fix DH too.

• Retribution: 10% to 15%
• Radiant Power: +150 ferocity to +250 ferocity 
• Hunter's Ward: reduce the cooldown to 25s (from 40s), and increase the damage from 3*0.25 + 2.2 to 3*0.5 + 2.5.

Would push GS+LB into ~35.5-36.5k territory, more than enough to be considered playable.

I would rather not build all most of the buffs into radiance. It would make sense to buff weapons directly. GS, Sword, both MH and OH, LB and maybe scepter need direct buffs. I know this will buff condi WB a bit. But it could use 1-2k damage.

Edited August 26, 2022 by otto.5684

[Carnifex.3275]

We'll have to stock up on hopium until october 3th patch. I don't really play DH that much but yes - it definitely needs buffs. I mostly played cWB since EOD launch and had a blast, fast paced fun gameplay. But after that june 28th patch... yeah, even cWB is terrible. I really hope they'll buff dh/wb. People paint the picture that guard is OP (firebrand) and hence other specs suffer from that too, anet seems to not want to buff it.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/27/2022 at 3:08 AM, Luna.6203 said:

 

Than why virtuoso which comes with dagger and using dagger deal so much damage and its 100% range. What about engineer rampaging with their rifle. Even ranger (power soulbeast) using longbow now since they buffed it and you know longbow ranger never was viable option. Lets face it DH is just forgotten spec thats it. There is no reason in current meta why dh-longbow should be so bad since dragon hunter never will be 100% range due to traps. It could however fill gap for moments when you need disengage or swap target that is far from you.. like some adds for example.

The common threads there are that the melee weapons you're comparing to either don't exist (condition virtuoso) or balance having melee through added defences (power virtuoso, which still has sword as part of the rotation; longbow rangers usually have either greatsword or an axe offhand; engineers).

Guardian sword and especially greatsword are pretty much pure damage melee weapons, and thus should outperform pure damage ranged weapons. Although like @otto.5684 observes, the gap shouldn't be too large.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/27/2022 at 3:30 AM, Falseprophet.1502 said:

Let me help you because you're not understanding.

 

Detaching the symbol from the AA does not equal removing it from the weapon itself. The symbol needs to be either attached to Hammer 2 or another skill needs to reworked to include that symbol. There is literally no other weapon on Guardian with a symbol attached to its auto-attack. It's inconsistent and it cripples the weapon.

 

Don't believe me? Go try benching with hammer right now. Use the standard raid set up with food. AA first. This should be around 22k-23k  if you use core guard (radiance/zeal/virtues). Now, do a second test, same set up, then integrate hammer skills 2-4 into the rotation in between each auto-attack symbol drop (I averaged between 20k-21k). You actually lose DPS doing this. This is my point that you seemingly do not understand. 

 

Nothing will change the "hammer uniqueness" or the "strong defensive support" that you claim it brings (weird how hammer is literally not used anywhere nor is it used by support guardians). Moving the symbol away from the AA will allow you to integrate the other skills into a proper rotation and make the recent changes to the power coefficients worthwhile. This isn't turning hammer into GS 2.0.

The uniqueness IS that the symbol is combined with the autoattack. It means you're slamming that symbol down every couple of seconds, maximising synergy with symbol traits and maintaining permanent protection.

Your complaint seems to be exactly as I predicted - it's not a 'press more buttons for more DPS' weapon like greatsword. Look at what those skills do. Zealot's Embrace is an immobilise with 1200 range, its primary purpose isn't to be part of a DPS rotation. Banish is for knocking enemies far away from you. The increased damage on those skills helps to make them less of a DPS loss, but they're still fundamentally CC skills.

At core, and if you're running Writ of Persistence, you've got permanent protection and healing ticks on your subsquad, and fair amount of CC available (especially if your target wants to move). Plus you have all the other support or DPS that guardian normally provides, as long as it's compatible with your build. It's naturally supportive in nature and a low-intensity rotation of mainly using autoattack and skill 2 unless you need CC or swap to another weapon, so it's not looking to match greatsword or sword/focus in outright DPS as its strengths lie in other areas. In fact, I'd argue that if it ever outDPSes those sets, it's been overbuffed. The question is rather how much support, and/or how much low-intensity DPS combined with heavy CC, it needs to be something you'd at least consider.

Especially since raids and similar content isn't all there is to the game. Having a bit of extra self-sustain, and maybe spreading it out to allies, can be useful in content where you won't necessarily have a subsquad healer around. It's one of my go-to weapons when I find that I want just a little more sustain than my normal build has and I'd rather swap weapon and a traitline rather than statswap all my gear.

[Luna.6203]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The common threads there are that the melee weapons you're comparing to either don't exist (condition virtuoso) or balance having melee through added defences (power virtuoso, which still has sword as part of the rotation;

Condition virtuoso:

Main hand:

dagger: 1 - 1200 range, 2 - 1200 range, 3 - 1200 range

Off hand:

sword: 5 - 1200 range

pistol: 4 - 1200 range, 5 - 1200 range

focus: 5 - 1200 range

+ all offensive utilities 1200 range.

^ these attacks are part of your main rotation all 100% range.

Power virtuoso:

My mesmer alt is condi so maybe im missing something but as far as i know power virt. using dagger/sword + GS. Seem range to me as well.

As i said my virtuoso is only alt i dont have much experience/muscle memory playing it my build is not even meta since im using pistol. Yet easily on top of damage meter oftent times no.1. 100% freedom when it comes to range as far as u are in range of support. Plus mesmer utilities when needed big big bonus! Compare that to dragonhunter.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

longbow rangers usually have either greatsword or an axe offhand

well ranger... thats why I added power soulbeast to the brackets. Power soulbeast indeed was using GS and axe off hand for years. But longbow has been boosted recently and its now 100% viable. Meta ranger is condi untamed oviously no LB there. Power soulbeast with longbow is not that far behind. I would also like to point here LB on ranger is core weapon. Half of the core weapons in this game are forgotten and useless. DH LB is elite weapon.

 

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

engineers

engi hmm ?

 

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Guardian sword and especially greatsword are pretty much pure damage melee weapons, and thus should outperform pure damage ranged weapons. Although like @otto.5684 observes, the gap shouldn't be too large.

 

Core weapons should not outperform elite weapon that comes with specialization - full stop. If you disagree than we can agree to disagree.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Luna.6203
typos

[Nash.2681]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:07 PM, Luna.6203 said:

 

Just because you dont like specialization and its weapon doesnt mean you have to ruin it for everyone else who enjoy playing DH with longbow. Just play willbender or completely different class. dragon hunter gw2 wiki

 

 

Im using DH with longbow for my open world / story casual play. Because i like it and its okay. But when it comes to competitive pve like t4 cm fractals / raids.. lets be real. Can you image join hard pve content as DH with longbow on back ? My guess is you be kicked before you say "hi, ill swap to FB just trolling".

 

I never said I dislike DH, in fact I play it for years and still prefer it over Willbender. Also, it's funny how, as someone complaining about people not understanding sarcastic overstatements, you don't seem to see how my post was intended to contradict the one I quoted. Your personal preference being X is totally irrelevant, since someone elses preference will be Y. There is no right or wrong.

Fact is, DH LB is still viable. Not BiS, not Meta, but still totally fine even in raids, unless your trying to speedrun for records.

[Luna.6203]

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

I never said I dislike DH, in fact I play it for years and still prefer it over Willbender. Also, it's funny how, as someone complaining about people not understanding sarcastic overstatements, you don't seem to see how my post was intended to contradict the one I quoted. Your personal preference being X is totally irrelevant, since someone elses preference will be Y. There is no right or wrong.

Fact is, DH LB is still viable. Not BiS, not Meta, but still totally fine even in raids, unless your trying to speedrun for records.

 

DH comes with longbow its not my preference its just how specialization was designed. To me its seems more like playing it as intended instead of personal preference. This is how specialization is promoted to new players that might think its cool even if you dont like it. Some people might even pick this class just because they see guardian holding longbow. 😎so cool! lets play it! And until they reach proper pve endgame its 100% fine and fun to play no doubts.

X-Y ... Problem is. I bet most people like longbow on DH like me. If you dont fine dont use it. But why you please anet to keep it irrelevant in pve and not improve longbow ? Becouse you dont like pew pew and doest fit thematicaly your guardian mean others shouldnt like it as well and LB shouldnt be good in "high end" pve ?

And about your so called fact that DH is viable. Longbow aside. DH in general at current state is one of the worst if not worst pure dps elite specialization you can bring to raid . You can still do that ... sure. In worst case other 9 members can carry you while you still do some dps. But why would you do that? Unless for whatever reason you want to play DH and only DH. Even if it means that others have to play harder to compensate. Otherwise you can bring firebrand which is most likely what group probably looking for anyway and even if not you can relog to much much better dps.

Dragonhunter dont have to be best but it cant be that bad either. Longbow could be improved without any extra damage i thing they mentioned that they will add ability to move while casting TS in next patch (excluded from last patch). Im really looking forward to this change. Maybe increase base DH damage would be enought. Will see... At this point i contributed so much to this discussion that im getting tired of it. Also originally this discussion is not about longbow i just wanted to point it out and it went too far. So this is probally my last post here on that topic..  Take it or not.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Luna.6203
typos