Dragonhunter: Is it really this weak or is it just me?

[Mell.4873]

I feel like the conversation is lost on the wider player base. Most other classes have barely preforming Elite mechanics especially in PvP (I'm looking at you Mirage).

DH might not be a Meta pick any more in PvP but in the right hands it is great. I mean most traps avoid the whole reflect Meta thing we are in, not to mention you can pull enemies into them.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

  

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I feel like the conversation is lost on the wider player base. Most other classes have barely preforming Elite mechanics especially in PvP (I'm looking at you Mirage).

DH might not be a Meta pick any more in PvP but in the right hands it is great. I mean most traps avoid the whole reflect Meta thing we are in, not to mention you can pull enemies into them.

1) LB DH was never meta, there's no "any more" about it. There was a reason the higher rating you got the less of them you saw, and nobody wanted one on their team in tryhard tournaments. 

2) In the right hands everything can be "great", including Mirage, which btw is not even in a bad spot compared to core ele, berserker, firebrand

Edited September 30, 2022 by Hogwarts Zebra.8597

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Hogwarts Zebra.8597 said:

  

1) LB DH was never meta, there's no "any more" about it. There was a reason the higher rating you got the less of them you saw, and nobody wanted one on their team in tryhard tournaments. 

2) In the right hands everything can be "great", including Mirage, which btw is not even in a bad spot compared to core ele, berserker, firebrand

Didn't this whole thread start with the player count of Dragon Hunters decreasing over time. If that's not an indication of how meta it was I guess I'm playing a different game. 

The real reality the design philosophy of Arena Net has shifted from balance every class to leaving them alone. They are even trying to bring back mechanics that were nerfed like Mirage's second dodge. 

I honestly doubt they will change DH at all since its a burst spec. That's like saying Power Ranger builds should have more sustain. 

 

Try saying Mirage is okay on the Mesmer forum, I would know since I have tried to. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Bewt.9258]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Didn't this whole thread start with the player count of Dragon Hunters decreasing over time. If that's not an indication of how meta it was I guess I'm playing a different game. 

 

 

DH never was meta, it was always used as a PUG Stomper. Just like rifle mech is now, it shreds low rated players and abuses the fact that those players don't yet know how to counter or focus target. It has the illusion of performing well and being super powerful. In reality the top streamers that everyone cites would never take DH into any serious competitive match. Experienced players will simply play around the trap mechanic, invalidating the entire spec and focusing the DH to force it to use its limited and long CD defensives. Now with 1 sec stealth traps the DH is more exposed and vulnerable, they should have compensated and given an extra sec of superspeed to compensate. As it is now, a DH pick is getting close to being similar to an FB pick throw. But Support Core Guard is still sees tournament play so "lol blue class op"

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Didn't this whole thread start with the player count of Dragon Hunters decreasing over time. If that's not an indication of how meta it was I guess I'm playing a different game. 

The real reality the design philosophy of Arena Net has shifted from balance every class to leaving them alone. They are even trying to bring back mechanics that were nerfed like Mirage's second dodge. 

I honestly doubt they will change DH at all since its a burst spec. That's like saying Power Ranger builds should have more sustain. 

 

Try saying Mirage is okay on the Mesmer forum, I would know since I have tried to. 

Then lower the burst and double crank up the sustain.

[Mell.4873]

32 minutes ago, Bailios.7518 said:

 

DH never was meta, it was always used as a PUG Stomper. Just like rifle mech is now, it shreds low rated players and abuses the fact that those players don't yet know how to counter or focus target. It has the illusion of performing well and being super powerful. In reality the top streamers that everyone cites would never take DH into any serious competitive match. Experienced players will simply play around the trap mechanic, invalidating the entire spec and focusing the DH to force it to use its limited and long CD defensives. Now with 1 sec stealth traps the DH is more exposed and vulnerable, they should have compensated and given an extra sec of superspeed to compensate. As it is now, a DH pick is getting close to being similar to an FB pick throw. But Support Core Guard is still sees tournament play so "lol blue class op"

You kind of made my point for me. If it is played by the majority of low skilled players, If it can go invisible for every Trap, If it can pull people into said Traps.

At what point is it not Meta, that's like saying Mirage was never OP.

How would making it better not result in the same problems as before. You would be better of asking for a new Elite specialisation to create the gameplay you want (Willbenders?) 

30 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Then lower the burst and double crank up the sustain.

Okay......?

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mell.4873

[cat.8975]

1 hour ago, Bailios.7518 said:

 

DH never was meta, it was always used as a PUG Stomper. Just like rifle mech is now, it shreds low rated players and abuses the fact that those players don't yet know how to counter or focus target. It has the illusion of performing well and being super powerful. In reality the top streamers that everyone cites would never take DH into any serious competitive match. Experienced players will simply play around the trap mechanic, invalidating the entire spec and focusing the DH to force it to use its limited and long CD defensives. Now with 1 sec stealth traps the DH is more exposed and vulnerable, they should have compensated and given an extra sec of superspeed to compensate. As it is now, a DH pick is getting close to being similar to an FB pick throw. But Support Core Guard is still sees tournament play so "lol blue class op"

The "meditrapper" build was absolutely a meta pick back in 2016 after some of the more broken HoT specs were brought in line (release Herald, anyone?), and you can verify this by checking the relevant Metabattle pages on the Wayback Machine. It has since fallen out of favor, but to claim it was never meta simply isn't true. DH continued to be very strong up until PoF launch, where it was then overshadowed by even more ridiculous builds.

These days DH is playable, but I definitely wouldn't recommend it to someone new to PvP. I'd love to see the Valor builds make a comeback some day, but I don't see it happening unless they buff the hell out of Smite Condition and make the damage output of Guardians less reliant on the Radiance line.

Edit: Check out this old revision of the Conquest page for a glimpse of what the PvP metagame was like back then.

Edited October 1, 2022 by cat.8975

[Saiyan.1704]

Our "meta DH/Burn" days were so short lived that people didn't even count the few weeks we were a legit 5th pick lol. We got nerfed so quickly that people forgot how op the damage was.

[otto.5684]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:50 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Didn't this whole thread start with the player count of Dragon Hunters decreasing over time. If that's not an indication of how meta it was I guess I'm playing a different game. 

The real reality the design philosophy of Arena Net has shifted from balance every class to leaving them alone. They are even trying to bring back mechanics that were nerfed like Mirage's second dodge. 

I honestly doubt they will change DH at all since its a burst spec. That's like saying Power Ranger builds should have more sustain. 

 

Try saying Mirage is okay on the Mesmer forum, I would know since I have tried to. 

When it comes to spvp, Anet design philosophy is simple. “Nerf it until it is unplayable. After all, if no one plays it, less work for us to balance.” There is a reason why pvp is trash fire and the spvp population is less than half it was 2.5 years, even after an expansion.

 

As for mirage, no, it is not okay in spvp. And yes it needs the second dodge. And that is not likely to be enough for it to be competitive. It was not, even with 2 dodges, for months before Feb 2020.

On 9/30/2022 at 8:16 PM, Bailios.7518 said:

 

DH never was meta, it was always used as a PUG Stomper. Just like rifle mech is now, it shreds low rated players and abuses the fact that those players don't yet know how to counter or focus target. It has the illusion of performing well and being super powerful. In reality the top streamers that everyone cites would never take DH into any serious competitive match. Experienced players will simply play around the trap mechanic, invalidating the entire spec and focusing the DH to force it to use its limited and long CD defensives. Now with 1 sec stealth traps the DH is more exposed and vulnerable, they should have compensated and given an extra sec of superspeed to compensate. As it is now, a DH pick is getting close to being similar to an FB pick throw. But Support Core Guard is still sees tournament play so "lol blue class op"

let me reminisce here for a bit. After a buff patch July/Aug 2019 DH was on the edge of the meta. The buff to DS at that time made extremely good if you could land it reliably. It was very good in solo que. if we got the buff to LB4 and LB5 at the time, it would have shot to the top of the meta. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by otto.5684

[Mell.4873]

8 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

When it comes to spvp, Anet design philosophy is simple. “Nerf it until it is unplayable. After all, if no one plays it, less work for us to balance.” There is a reason why pvp is trash fire and the spvp population is less than half it was 2.5 years, even after an expansion.

Honestly I cant really comment on this since we really just don't know. I do believe you were more right a few years back but it does seem like they listen now (seem....).

9 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

As for mirage, no, it is not okay in spvp. And yes it needs the second dodge. And that is not likely to be enough for it to be competitive. It was not, even with 2 dodges, for months before Feb 2020.

Yeah I agree with that comment.

[angrax.1372]

Before I stopped playing in 2020, I was DH with greatsword and traps and had no issues. I was not running dps meters, so I can't really tell what my dps was, though.

 

But it was a very enjoyable Open World experience.

[crazyhusky.2985]

Honestly I do think Dragonhunter needs a revamp especially the Bow.

We still have one or two traits that have NEVER been touched or tweaked in any way from the HoT release in 2015. All the other specs have had complete reworks.

I know in a few metas Dragonhunter's place is OK, not the best, just decent. Middle of the road., and that fine. Its not in bad place but not in good one, and often feels like a forgotten class these days. In the PvE meta it doesn't really have a niche, It's just another Power DPS spec so its replaceable. DH has a niche trap role in has in WvW and thats it.

But having playing 3000+ hours on a DH its kinda gone stale without anything new, and feels like it has dropped off in a some way though nothing about it has changed. I've had the same gear and build on my DH since LS3/start of PoF.

Watching everyone else get new toys or re-vamps on their classes/specs while your spec gets nothing, is rather dull and boring. You see people and friends complaining about nerfs and buffs to their specs, but you can't even do that. The past 2-3 years for guardian have all been about Firebrand, DH only seems to get patches due to mandtory global changes, point in case the Hunter's Determination change in the 4th Oct to get rid of skills with 300 cooldown in wvw/pvp. the last notiable DH change was LB5's (Hunter's Ward) casting time being reduced about a half year ago. Before that I don't know what.

I think what people want is something NEW with dragonhunter along with the fixes, because after so long without anything major done to it. People just to shake up the spec a little to put some life back into it to give people a reason to use it again, give it some boons or a new role.

We need that new resoultion boon within Dragonhunter traits for damage. so they could give it to use.

I would to see Hunter's Fortification get replaced by something new maybe something that gives conditions to the Longbow, or extra boons, maybe a new trap or virtue, or make the Bulwark trait to give us barrier when our aegis ends. What about giving a dodge onto our F2 skill and have True shot not root you in place.

I would like to see a little breath of life given to Dragonhunter. right now feels like dragonhunter in limbo.

Edited October 4, 2022 by crazyhusky.2985
typo

[EnemyCrusher.7324]

And dragonhunter just got another nerf in WvW. Could we just get one balance patch that doesn't nerf dragonhunter in WvW?

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, crazyhusky.2985 said:

Honestly I do think Dragonhunter needs a revamp especially the Bow.

We still have one or two traits that have NEVER been touched or tweaked in any way from the HoT release in 2015. All the other specs have had complete reworks.

I know in a few metas Dragonhunter's place is OK, not the best, just decent. Middle of the road., and that fine. Its not in bad place but not in good one, and often feels like a forgotten class these days. In the PvE meta it doesn't really have a niche, It's just another Power DPS spec so its replaceable. DH has a niche trap role in has in WvW and thats it.

But having playing 3000+ hours on a DH its kinda gone stale without anything new, and feels like it has dropped off in a some way though nothing about it has changed. I've had the same gear and build on my DH since LS3/start of PoF.

Watching everyone else get new toys or re-vamps on their classes/specs while your spec gets nothing, is rather dull and boring. You see people and friends complaining about nerfs and buffs to their specs, but you can't even do that. The past 2-3 years for guardian have all been about Firebrand, DH only seems to get patches due to mandtory global changes, point in case the Hunter's Determination change in the 4th Oct to get rid of skills with 300 cooldown in wvw/pvp. the last notiable DH change was LB5's (Hunter's Ward) casting time being reduced about a half year ago. Before that I don't know what.

I think what people want is something NEW with dragonhunter along with the fixes, because after so long without anything major done to it. People just to shake up the spec a little to put some life back into it to give people a reason to use it again, give it some boons or a new role.

We need that new resoultion boon within Dragonhunter traits for damage. so they could give it to use.

I would to see Hunter's Fortification get replaced by something new maybe something that gives conditions to the Longbow, or extra boons, maybe a new trap or virtue, or make the Bulwark trait to give us barrier when our aegis ends. What about giving a dodge onto our F2 skill and have True shot not root you in place.

I would like to see a little breath of life given to Dragonhunter. right now feels like dragonhunter in limbo.

I think that is a perfect reasonable take but there is a difference between balancing something becouse it needs it and balancing something bouse you are bored with it. 

DH was always a very strong elite but maybe it will get some buffs/changes when it does become dated. 

[Gehenna.3625]

On 9/29/2022 at 6:22 AM, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Abrasiveness is irrelevant to the truth. 

By itself that is correct. However, it's very relevant to getting your point across. As my mom used to say: "You can be right a thousand times but if you don't know how to get your ideas across, your ideas will fall on deaf ears".

And I mean if you aren't trying to get your point across, then why do you even post?

[Gehenna.3625]

16 hours ago, crazyhusky.2985 said:

Honestly I do think Dragonhunter needs a revamp especially the Bow.

We still have one or two traits that have NEVER been touched or tweaked in any way from the HoT release in 2015. All the other specs have had complete reworks.

I know in a few metas Dragonhunter's place is OK, not the best, just decent. Middle of the road., and that fine. Its not in bad place but not in good one, and often feels like a forgotten class these days. In the PvE meta it doesn't really have a niche, It's just another Power DPS spec so its replaceable. DH has a niche trap role in has in WvW and thats it.

But having playing 3000+ hours on a DH its kinda gone stale without anything new, and feels like it has dropped off in a some way though nothing about it has changed. I've had the same gear and build on my DH since LS3/start of PoF.

Watching everyone else get new toys or re-vamps on their classes/specs while your spec gets nothing, is rather dull and boring. You see people and friends complaining about nerfs and buffs to their specs, but you can't even do that. The past 2-3 years for guardian have all been about Firebrand, DH only seems to get patches due to mandtory global changes, point in case the Hunter's Determination change in the 4th Oct to get rid of skills with 300 cooldown in wvw/pvp. the last notiable DH change was LB5's (Hunter's Ward) casting time being reduced about a half year ago. Before that I don't know what.

I think what people want is something NEW with dragonhunter along with the fixes, because after so long without anything major done to it. People just to shake up the spec a little to put some life back into it to give people a reason to use it again, give it some boons or a new role.

We need that new resoultion boon within Dragonhunter traits for damage. so they could give it to use.

I would to see Hunter's Fortification get replaced by something new maybe something that gives conditions to the Longbow, or extra boons, maybe a new trap or virtue, or make the Bulwark trait to give us barrier when our aegis ends. What about giving a dodge onto our F2 skill and have True shot not root you in place.

I would like to see a little breath of life given to Dragonhunter. right now feels like dragonhunter in limbo.

My main is a DH and I use her for playing WvW mostly. I have a weird build but it works for me as a roamer. I use the bow for the one skill that has range of 1500 and the cc it brings but it definitely feels weak and as we say in Dutch the bow can't shoot "a dent into a pack of butter". Also this piercing multiple enemies is not really great. It's a lesser version of an AoE and both skill 1 and 2 have it. Are Dragon Hunters hunting packs of Dragons that fly really close together or what?

And as for skill 2, why the hell do we have to stand still to use it? Why can we not channel it while on the move? The way things work in WvW is that often an enemies get out of range while you're standing still, in spite of its range. 

I mean ranger longbows have range 1500 for most of the skills and even skill 4 has 1200 even though it's called point-blank shot. So please explain to me why a ranger can do much more at longer range than a Dragon Hunter. I mean, you'd think that a DH would be trained at much higher ranges as well, perhaps even more.

Bottom like, I think that DH needs a complete overhaul and they should start at what would make sense for a Dragon Hunter to be able to do, just from the name. Otherwise just call it "Lesser Ranger".

 

[otto.5684]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:08 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

My main is a DH and I use her for playing WvW mostly. I have a weird build but it works for me as a roamer. I use the bow for the one skill that has range of 1500 and the cc it brings but it definitely feels weak and as we say in Dutch the bow can't shoot "a dent into a pack of butter". Also this piercing multiple enemies is not really great. It's a lesser version of an AoE and both skill 1 and 2 have it. Are Dragon Hunters hunting packs of Dragons that fly really close together or what?

And as for skill 2, why the hell do we have to stand still to use it? Why can we not channel it while on the move? The way things work in WvW is that often an enemies get out of range while you're standing still, in spite of its range. 

I mean ranger longbows have range 1500 for most of the skills and even skill 4 has 1200 even though it's called point-blank shot. So please explain to me why a ranger can do much more at longer range than a Dragon Hunter. I mean, you'd think that a DH would be trained at much higher ranges as well, perhaps even more.

Bottom like, I think that DH needs a complete overhaul and they should start at what would make sense for a Dragon Hunter to be able to do, just from the name. Otherwise just call it "Lesser Ranger".

 

I do think the range of DH was always bizarre. It is useful in pvp, but more of you go in and out of melee. Rarely ever would you stay at range. In pve you will always be in melee. There is no reason to use LB in PvE anyway.

 

Personally, I liked the short period in the end of 2019 through Feb 2020 where DH played as versatile bruiser, relying on DS for damage and control, while rewarding you for using ToF for control and damage mitigation. Sadly, all that is gone. It is now brain dead trap spam. And with the nerf to the trapper runes, not even that.

Edited October 10, 2022 by otto.5684

[Antina.5973]

Also upkeeping resolution for Righteous Instincts is trash, why can't we have Fury as required boon like revs?  Where DH PvE buffs? Even spellbreaker is vable in pve now. 😞

[eldrevo.1746]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:57 PM, crazyhusky.2985 said:

I think what people want is something NEW with dragonhunter along with the fixes, because after so long without anything major done to it. People just to shake up the spec a little to put some life back into it to give people a reason to use it again, give it some boons or a new role.

We need that new resoultion boon within Dragonhunter traits for damage. so they could give it to use.

I would to see Hunter's Fortification get replaced by something new maybe something that gives conditions to the Longbow, or extra boons, maybe a new trap or virtue, or make the Bulwark trait to give us barrier when our aegis ends. What about giving a dodge onto our F2 skill and have True shot not root you in place.

I would like to see a little breath of life given to Dragonhunter. right now feels like dragonhunter in limbo.

Yeah, I agree that some DH traits an skills look really old and outdated. Hopefully, it'll next in the line after Berserker and Druid to get some gameplay and mechanics rework in addition to balance tweaks. 

The suggestions are nice, evade on F2 will make it a much more reliable and less annoying. True shot needs to be offset by something, being a rather strong burst skill (it still oneshots better than ranger LB2 if you play the cards right), and honestly I prefer self-root to any other counterweights or to just making the skill weaker. I feel like it needs other mobility options in the traits. 25% movespeed trait is weird and nobody plays it, and the only other option is Trapper runes which many think is problematic. 

One addition from me would be to take a lesson of WoW Hunters' book and make the traps ranged. Either instantly cast like Necro Staff marks, or thrown like LB4 projectile. It will 1) make DH traps more unique compared to ranger's and thief's and 2) enable DH as a ranged spec instead of forcing it to melee despite selling the ranged fantasy.

[eldrevo.1746]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:08 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

Bottom like, I think that DH needs a complete overhaul and they should start at what would make sense for a Dragon Hunter to be able to do, just from the name. Otherwise just call it "Lesser Ranger".

I'm up for an overhaul but I can't agree with Lesser Ranger. To me, DH is better at Ranger than the Ranger 😄 Especially if you're into classic petless long-range playstyle.

Aside from having more range on autoattack, Ranger Longbow feels weird to me. Everything except LB5 is single target (unless you grief yourself with a troll trait) and mostly just damage, while DH Longbow has nice piercing and AOE on all skills, as well as nice utility with projectile block, vigor and one of the most broken CC on LB5.

I have no issue with piercing attacks hurting the fantasy, I like the idea of DH's light-imbued arrows delivering such an impact that it can carve through dragon scales on the way in and on the way out. What I find lacking in the fantasy and its transition to gameplay, is that the rest of DH kit (virtues, traits, traps) is kind of all over the place. We have one dragon-themed trap, one hunter-themed trait, and that's it. It'd be cool if they brought everything (or at least something) else closer to the theme of being a long-range bursty and evasive survivalist.